R+L=J v.93

[BearQueen87]

I didn't get it till I read it here, but I never see those things. Many people saw it the first time and once you've had it pointed it out to you, it's straight forward.

See I don't get this. If you never saw it and had to have it pointed out to you, then it's not obvious. Just because people figured it out doesn't mean that it can't possible be true. And it's not as straight forward as you make it sound because like I said, we still have many people who argue against it; or people who believe it but won't go so far as to say that R and L were married. And we have people who believe they fell in love at Harrnehal, and people who believe it was later. We have people who believe R changed his mind about prophecy and people who don't. We have people who think Jon's heritage will play a part in Westerosi politics, and people who don't. We have people who think Lyanna's tomb has an egg, a harp, a cloak, and people who think it's just a body. We have people who think the 3KG were traitors and people who think they were loyal to their vows to the end. My grand point here is that it can't be straight forward because we don't have all the answers, there is no consensus on the finer details, and just because some people did figure it out and made a point to prove it doesn't mean that it's "too obvious"

People are not asking enough questions about the things we don't know yet.

Here's an alternative version.

Where is Ned Stark's mother?

Maybe she freaked out and went back to her Flynt relatives because one of her own sons fathered a son on her daughter.

If Lyanna & Rhaegar were so in love at Harrenhal, why not elope right away? Maybe something happened.

When Lyanna is telling Ned that Robert will never be true to one woman, maybe she does it to persuade her own brother to make love to her. Having been persuaded, he feels awful and pushes Lyanna away. She feels rejected and rides away, seeking out Rhaegar who can't have her at the capital, so he hides her far away from the Starks. Lyanna only tells R she loves him, but not about Ned, so R marries her and thinks the child is his . . .

Ned lets the story of Lyanna's abduction go unchallenged because he feels guilty. His brother runs off and gets himself and his father killed and the war starts.

In the end, all this is on Ned's head.

No wonder he's tormented.

Pretty sure all those questions have been asked, but alright. I'll do my best

1) Ned's mother: most likely dead

2) L and R: we differ on this, but I don't think they fell in love at Harrnehal. I think there was an attraction, but it wasn't full on "let's run away" love yet. R went back to Elia, and stayed with her until after Aegon was born, and like Unmasked Lurker and I believe, there's a lot of prophecy at play, namely that R changed his mind about TPWTP

3) I don't think anything is on Ned's head. In fact he's rather bitter towards Brandon. There's a quote that I posted on the first page on this thread; when speaking of Brandon and how Ned was forced to take up Brandon's place, Ned becomes bitter and resentful.

[sj4iy]

Ned didn't tell Jon because he is Jon's father as Jon already knows.

And Lyanna is his mother, which he can't tell him.

...wait, are you saying that Ned and Lyanna are Jon's parents?

My reply:

I look at it differently. R+L=J is too obvious. A good writer (which GRRM is) doesn't give away the central mystery that soon (what was it, p.450 out of 4,500 when we learned of the toj?). Any writer worth his salt makes the false lead (which is what I suspect R+L is) more convincing than the real one. My only question at this point is how far into ADOS will I have to read to finally know the truth.

"It's too obvious" doesn't work when there are still many people who haven't figured it out. Also, I would say Martin's 'worth his salt' considering that this thread alone has gone almost 93 pages of people arguing back and forth about it, so it's far from the given amongst the fans as you seem to make it out to be.

Also, Martin originally planned on writing 3 books. It would make sense that he would put in all of the clues about Jon's parents in the first book since he planned on wrapping it up two books after that to start with. His editor read the draft of the first book and figured out who Jon's parents were before the book was ever published...which means that we, the reader, should be able to figure out who his parents are by the end of the first book. All of the clues in that book point to R+L=J.

I see nothing that would suggest and incestuous relationship between Ned and Lyanna...especially given that the time frame absolutely would not work out. Lyanna was gone with Rhaegar before Robert's Rebellion started. Jon was born after it ended. Ned couldn't have seen Lyanna around the time that Jon was conceived.

[honeyed chicken]

Obvious being relative.

It's not rational, maybe, but I'm kind of attached to the E + L = J notion at the moment.

[sj4iy]

Obvious being relative.

It's not rational, maybe, but I'm kind of attached to the E + L = J notion at the moment.

Just wondering, is there anything you have to support this theory?

[BearQueen87]

Obvious being relative.

It's not rational, maybe, but I'm kind of attached to the E + L = J notion at the moment.

Sorry, not familiar...E is...Eddard? or...?

ETA: just read up thread. Okay. E= Eddard. I'm with SJ4iy. Evidence?

[Ellfoy]

Actually Rhaenys was 2 maybe 3, as Tywin puts it. That suggests that she died on or very near her third nameday. It also tells us that Elia was not yet pregnant with Aegon, being fresh from bedrest, at the tourney.

Oh really ? Seems that I got all my ages messed up.

Just to be sure, I always see in comment that Jon is Lord Commander at 16, sometimes even 15. Burt it is not possible right ? He was 14 in the beginning, 15 when he took his vow, and 16 when he was with Ygritte so I would say that by the time of the end of ADWD, he is 17. But people here seems to think that he is younger, same with Dany (15 by the end of ADWD, when I would say 16)

EDIT: Eddard + Lyanna = Jon -> :ack:

[JonSnow4President]

Obvious being relative.

It's not rational, maybe, but I'm kind of attached to the E + L = J notion at the moment.

Just.... ewww... :stillsick:

[BearQueen87]

I've seen people suggest that Brandon was molesting Lyanna and his reaction to learning she had been taken was less "protective brother" and more "scorned lover" but I've never seen anything about E and L. And...I'm fairly certain that the timeline doesn't fit for it.

[honeyed chicken]

The case for E+L=J is . . .

um

It feels right?

Not to be flaky (anymore than usual) but it strikes me something is going to come totally out of left field wrt Jon.

My first thought along this line was Brandon - he is after all the wild and impetuous one. But then I thought about family dynamics, quiet brother, wild sister. And the way Ned thinks of her "Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart." Seems a little bit mushy for Ned, He's pretty dry for the most part.

Then there's all that "promise me Ned", stuff. If it was as simple as take care of Jon for me and raise him right, well Ned did that in spades, he can rest easy. But he doesn't. He continues to be tortured.

And there's that stuff about how much Jon looks like Ned. Well what better way to look just like your father than if your mother is his sister. And he's a strong warg - if he gets the warg gene from both sides, that kinda makes sense.

Overall I like the grittiness of it - or the " ewww... " factor to use your word. Feels like something GRRM would do.

eta

I'm not sure about the timeline either, but who knows.

[JonSnow4President]

I've seen people suggest that Brandon was molesting Lyanna and his reaction to learning she had been taken was less "protective brother" and more "scorned lover" but I've never seen anything about E and L. And...I'm fairly certain that the timeline doesn't fit for it.

:ack: :ack: :ack: :ack: :ack: :ack:

I never get where people come up with some of these things (stark brothers + L = J [i've seen Benjen too], Arya is a boy, the dusky woman is Euron, Joffrey molested Tommen, etc.)

[BearQueen87]

The case for E+L=J is . . .

um

It feels right?

Does...it? I mean from what we can tell Lyanna loved all her brothers but was especially close to Brandon and was closer in age to Ben and played with him more often. Ned is the brother who doesn't have wolves blood, unlike Lyanna, and while she confided in him about Robert, that was because Ned was Robert's BFF.

And the way Ned thinks of her "Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart." Seems a little bit mushy for Ned, He's pretty dry for the most part.

Then there's all that "promise me Ned", stuff. If it was as simple as take care of Jon for me and raise him right, well Ned did that in spades, he can rest easy. But he doesn't. He continues to be tortured.

Eh. Difference of opinion. Ned thinks about wanting to go home to Winterfell and be with Cat and his children and just live his life, not be in KL any longer. Ned is more or less traumatized by Lyanna's passing and the burden he bears having to keep her secrets.

And there's that stuff about how much Jon looks like Ned. Well what better way to look just like your father than if your mother is his sister. And he's a strong warg - if he gets the warg gene from both sides, that kinda makes sense.

Overall I like the grittiness of it - or the " ewww... " factor to use your word. Feels like something GRRM would do.

Jon looks like a northman, and everyone around him attributes that to Ned, but reading between the lines, he looks like Arya who looks like Lyanna; he has little of Rhaegar except for being slight and having the same nose.

eta

I'm not sure about the timeline either, but who knows.

I'm almost 99.5% sure this can't work because of the timeline. Someone else can help sketch it out, but unless Lyanna was pregnant when Rhaegar took her then, yeah, I don't think it can. And even if she was, she would have given birth sooner than the time of the Sack.

[Alia of the knife]

Going back to the notion of GRRM telling a story within a story, here is Jorahs moment at the Lannisport tournament where he first found Lynesse, (and I'm actually intrigued by how similar Lyanna and Lynesse's names are).

But when I first read this, I felt very strongly that Martin was telling the story of the Harrenhal crowning.

(BQ, you might want to leave the "room" for this). :bawl:

“To celebrate his victory, Robert ordained that a tourney should be held outside Lannisport. It was there I saw Lynesse, a maid half my age. She had come up from Oldtown with her father to see her brothers joust. I could not take my eyes off her. In a fit of madness, I begged her favor to wear in the tourney, never dreaming she would grant my request, yet she did.

“I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse’s favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion’s laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty....."

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Eddard + Lyanna = Jon??

Please, tell me in this theory, one of them is ADOPTED...

[Ellfoy]

Going back to the notion of GRRM telling a story within a story, here is Jorahs moment at the Lannisport tournament where he first found Lynesse, (and I'm actually intrigued by how similar Lyanna and Lynesse's names are).

But when I first read this, I felt very strongly that Martin was telling the story of the Harrenhal crowning.

(BQ, you might want to leave the "room" for this). :bawl:

“To celebrate his victory, Robert ordained that a tourney should be held outside Lannisport. It was there I saw Lynesse, a maid half my age. She had come up from Oldtown with her father to see her brothers joust. I could not take my eyes off her. In a fit of madness, I begged her favor to wear in the tourney, never dreaming she would grant my request, yet she did.

“I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse’s favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion’s laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty....."

Yes, the parallel between the two tourneys has already be noticed i think and I personnally noticed the names similarity too.

The maid "half his age" didn't really end well the first time, so Jorah had decided for a fair lady (queen) thrice younger than him this time... That did end well also... Joking, I'm teasing BearQueen87 ;)

[BearQueen87]

Going back to the notion of GRRM telling a story within a story, here is Jorahs moment at the Lannisport tournament where he first found Lynesse, (and I'm actually intrigued by how similar Lyanna and Lynesse's names are).

My biggest issue with this (and to be fair I think it's a very good analysis) is that I don't think Rhaegar's appreciation for Lyanna's beauty and his appreciation for her role as the Knight of the Laughing Tree are mutually exclusive. He may have been determined to win the joust so that he might crown her, but unlike Jorah (choke) I don't think it was solely because of how gorgeous Lyanna was. For Jorah (sob) he viewed Lyneese (hiss) as the Maiden come down to Earth; I don't think Rhaegar thought Lyanna was just sooooo stunning that he had to win the crown cause OMG SO PRETTY! He is attracted to her sexually but her role as the Knight it was takes the cake for him. So crowning her is an acknowledgement about her honor and integrity.

(BQ, you might want to leave the "room" for this). :bawl:

He's just sad and broken and tortured !!!!!!! (and also a ruthlessly pragmatic Machiavellian-type asshole but gods, I love him)

The maid "half his age" didn't really end well the first time, so Jorah had decided for a fair lady (queen) thrice younger than him this time... That did end well also... Joking, I'm teasing BearQueen87 ;)

*cuddles Bear* Don't you listen to them, my bear!

[sj4iy]

The case for E+L=J is . . .

um

It feels right?

Not to be flaky (anymore than usual) but it strikes me something is going to come totally out of left field wrt Jon.

My first thought along this line was Brandon - he is after all the wild and impetuous one. But then I thought about family dynamics, quiet brother, wild sister. And the way Ned thinks of her "Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart." Seems a little bit mushy for Ned, He's pretty dry for the most part.

Then there's all that "promise me Ned", stuff. If it was as simple as take care of Jon for me and raise him right, well Ned did that in spades, he can rest easy. But he doesn't. He continues to be tortured.

And there's that stuff about how much Jon looks like Ned. Well what better way to look just like your father than if your mother is his sister. And he's a strong warg - if he gets the warg gene from both sides, that kinda makes sense.

Overall I like the grittiness of it - or the " ewww... " factor to use your word. Feels like something GRRM would do.

eta

I'm not sure about the timeline either, but who knows.

I would say that if Jon's parentage comes completely out of left field, then it's bad writing. Good writing allows the reader to find the clues and put them together.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I think I threw up in my mouth with the E+L=J theory. :stillsick: :blink:

Just no! :thumbsdown:

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Sadly Chekhov's gun is not required to shoot the character you dislike most.

Glad you figured that out! But no, but those quotes are cocked & loaded. . .

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Eddard + Lyanna = Jon??

Please, tell me in this theory, one of them is ADOPTED...

God, don't let SoD see this. . .

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

We may never know if L+R=J but who cares.For those who do I have an explanation." Promise me lord Stark ," Lyanna pleaded "tell him about me and his father" . Eddard now have been raising Jon for at lease 14 years he come to think of Jon as his son .Aware of the pain this would cause both him and Jon not including Robb ,Arya and Brandon it causes great anguish.