R+L=J v.93

[Julia Martell]

You know, this whole Lyanna being in the Riverlands between between the tourney and the Lyanna-napping never occurred to me. Which is too bad, because it solves a lot of problems.

Maybe Robert got into the betrothal for political reasons (Jon Arryn's advice, southeron ambitions, what not) then met up at or a little before the tourney (maybe Lyanna and Benjen met up with Ned, Bob, and Jon at Gulltown or something, then went to Harrenhall together, giving them a chance to get to know each other).

Who the hell knows.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Hmmm. I don't know. When Ned confronts Robert during the Hand's Tourney, Robert complains that Lyanna "would never have shamed me this way" because Cersei didn't want Robert to joust. Robert seems to think that Lyanna wouldn't have called him out on his bull crap, but Ned begs to differ: "you saw her beauty, not the steel underneath."

Indeed, it seems that Robert believed that Lyanna would have been the good southron wife, not strong willed by herself, but instead listening to her husband, never daring to defy him openly...

The descriptions of "Lyanna had wolfs blood" and there was "steel underneath" do suggest that Robert didn't really know Lyanna, so either Lyanna was capable of putting on quite a show of being a perfect southron lady while Robert was around, or he never truly paid attention to her at all (nor did they meet often).

[BearQueen87]

Indeed, it seems that Robert believed that Lyanna would have been the good southron wife, not strong willed by herself, but instead listening to her husband, never daring to defy him openly...

The descriptions of "Lyanna had wolfs blood" and there was "steel underneath" do suggest that Robert didn't really know Lyanna, so either Lyanna was capable of putting on quite a show of being a perfect southron lady while Robert was around, or he never truly paid attention to her at all (nor did they meet often).

I don't think Robert paid attention to her. He spent HH either fighting or drinking. Lyanna's suspicions about him are confirmed at the tourney.

[honeyed chicken]

Playing devil's advocate here:

There's a line somewhere about Jon in which it's said (paraphrasing) "His mother left nothing of herself in him". When I read this, I actually had the same thought as you, vis E+L=J.

There's actually some other evidence for it. You point out the warging thing -- Ned's kids have the ability to warg, so does Jon. But we can take that a stage further: Ned's kids have Direwolves, so does Jon. It could be argued that Jon's is the most mystic-wolfy, Ghost's appearance being compared to a weirwood, perhaps because of the doubling-up of Wolfness in Jon?

Contrary to popular belief, Ned actually does refer to Jon as his son, once. In the first Bran chapter in GoT, when Robb and Jon find the wolves, Ned says something like "Let's go see what my sons have found now".

Ned's guilt. Ned is wracked by guilt. It's hard to see how the promises he's made to Lyanna and the lie about R+L=J would make him suffer 14 years of such intense guilt. It really does seem like something else is going on, and N+L=J would certainly fit.

Yeah, I don't believe it though, the timing just doesn't seem to work.

I'm fairly convinced of R+L=J, but I do somewhat share your feeling there's a wrinkle coming. It does bother me that the hidden prince trope seems a little too obvious for ASoIaF, and no I don't mean obvious as in obvious to the reader, I mean obvious as in from a storytelling viewpoint. It's an obvious story to tell.

And then there's Ned's guilt. That bothers me. Seems like a gap in R+L=J to me, which leaves in a little chink for N+A=J or something else. I kind of like the idea of Jon being the Sword of Morning. 93 threads in though? Nothing's proven, or provable, except that R+L=J is easily the strongest theory based on what we know so far. I don't think this thread's likely to go anywhere new until we get a new book, unless someone gets Alfie Allen drunk and gets him to explain his "Skywalker moment" comment.

The above is kinda misleading, but I'm sure folks have messed up and and typed says, or refers (aloud-to someone else). He does speak of hin as his son to others, aloud, but he never, not once, THINKS of him as his son, only his blood, all you E+L=J trolls are overlooking this. . .

I foster hopes to hijack this away from things living under bridges.

Your argument last to first - there are no Targaryens left in the Realm. I go-a-counting them:

• Maester Aemon was a Targaryen before he became a Maester: he put away his house, his birthright and lineage when he forged his Maester's chain. When offered the throne he refused it, and to doubly forsake it, later went to the wall and became a black brother.

• Jon never really was a Targaryen. Well... only for a few days. Then he became Ned's bastard, a snow. He was a Targaryen ghost, so to say. The Targ that never was maybe. And he went to the wall.

AGoT 13 Tyrion II, colouring and bold face by me.

I only noticed because of your mention of the passage I just quoted, that Tyrion unknowing is not reading in his book about Dragons, he is actually reading Jon's presence and Jon's face and answers: "Dragons,"

Nice.

My apologies. Some of these replies just seem a bit contrarian, simply to evoke an emotional response. I can honestly say that I don't believe anyone even considers E+L (N+L) = J to be anything other than ludicrous. Those that are promoting this vague, unsupported train of thought refuse to give any examples as to why they think as they do, so I think they're trolling here (but I suppose it was rude to say it out loud).

Contrarian (I gave examples and reasons before)?

Here are some things that E+L fits, that R + L does not.

- J looks more like Ned than Robb does

- Ned is wracked with guilt about Lyanna's death (he's taking care of L + R's son and doing a good job of it. So why all the guilt?)

- Jon is in WF. The known Targ heirs have been collected by Varys and are living in Essos.

- Varys shows no interest in Jon that we know of

- Jon is a strong Warg

- like Ned, he passes the sentence and wields the sword (Janos Slynt)

- provides possible explanation for the non-appearance and non-mention of Ned's mother, Lyarra (that she was angry with Ned over Lyanna's death and could not abide Jon - the product of that incest. So she went back to her Flynt kin in the hills)

these work with R+L, but better with E+L, I would say:

- possible explanation why Howland Reed does not show up to this point (he was close to Lyanna and was distraught by what happened to her and by Ned's role in it. Also could not abide the site of Jon and how much he looks like his mom.)

- Ned gets so testy with Cat when she asked him about Ned & Ashara and Jon.

all this could be camouflage to make him look like a 100% Stark - or he could actually be a 100% Stark.

The timeline literally doesn't work for it, so....yeah it's crack pottery. I get the feeling some just don't want R+L = J to be true at all they'll look for any and all alternatives.

I understand why one would regard "E+L=J" a trollish idea. The whole incestuous idea of Ed with Lyanna has no grounds whatsoever for either character. It's absurd, and of course it has an "eww" factor. "eww" + "absurd" = usually "trollish". So E+A=T ;)

Westeros is a little less wonky for me this morning, so I can finally respond to some of this, but by no means all (no time).

There's an aspect of the Jon mystery that's a bit like tearing apart the house looking for eye glasses that are perched on your head. Some times the simplest explanation is the best (and often times it is not).

I'm speaking of course of Catelyn's dismay that Jon looks more like Ned than Bran or Robb do. As for Jon being quicker and more lithe than Robb, that could be because Rhaegar - or it could be simply Lyanna. Was she not quick and lithe and strong (many believe she was the KotLT - who was pretty durn good in the lists iirc)? And if Tyrion saw no trace of the mother, maybe it was because she was so very like the father. But there's also the depth of Ned's sorrow and guilt over Lyanna's passing.

The timeline is virtually unknown.

When she was kidnapped, whether she was kidnapped, from where etc, etc. For all we know, Ned found a way to meet her again before Rhaegar finally got her to the toj (which I've said before strikes me as a safe location only from Ned). Maybe Ned quietly met Lyanna in KL while Brandon was bellowing at the gate. Doesn't seem like stealth is Ned's style exactly, but who knows?

As for "eeewww" factor, how did all of you who have a problem with thought Lyanna & Ned get past Jamie & Cersei in AGOT? Specifically, Bran 2, p.84 of AGOT - a nice scene of brother and sister (twins) making love. You didn't drop the book at that point (not to mention at all the Targaryen incest), so why the squeamishness with Ned and Lyanna? btw Rickard & Lyarra were cousins.

I don't see these as trollish questions at all. Whether you ultimately discard the idea of Ned & Lyanna as Jon's parents, I think it's as legitimate a question (in the abstract) as asking whether R + L are his parents.

[BearQueen87]

Jon Weirgaryen started a new thread. I guess use that one?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115147-rlj-v94/?p=6092492

Honeyed Chicken, you may want to repost in the new one

[Ygrain]

Contrarian (I gave examples and reasons before)?

Here are some things that E+L fits, that R + L does not.
- J looks more like Ned than Robb does
- Ned is wracked with guilt about Lyanna's death (he's taking care of L + R's son and doing a good job of it. So why all the guilt?)
- Jon is in WF. The known Targ heirs have been collected by Varys and are living in Essos.
- Varys shows no interest in Jon that we know of
- Jon is a strong Warg
- like Ned, he passes the sentence and wields the sword (Janos Slynt)
- provides possible explanation for the non-appearance and non-mention of Ned's mother, Lyarra (that she was angry with Ned over Lyanna's death and could not abide Jon - the product of that incest. So she went back to her Flynt kin in the hills)

Oh, come on. How do these thing not fit with R+L?

- Jon and Arya look alike; they look like Ned and Lyanna

- he fought a war, lost his family and friends, and all for nothing because Lyanna died, as well, and dying swore him to committing treason and hurting his wife. Enough to haunt a man.

- what Varys doesn't know, he cannot collect. This is a non-issue

- see above

- Ned was not a warg, while Lyanna's superb riding skills suggest that she might have been one.

- that trait is not inherited but learned

- or she died some time after Benjen was born, or had other non-convoluted reasons to disapepar

these work with R+L, but better with E+L, I would say:

- possible explanation why Howland Reed does not show up to this point (he was close to Lyanna and was distraught by what happened to her and by Ned's role in it. Also could not abide the site of Jon and how much he looks like his mom.)

- Ned gets so testy with Cat when she asked him about Ned & Ashara and Jon.

all this could be camouflage to make him look like a 100% Stark - or he could actually be a 100% Stark.

- there is zero indication of any resentment towards Ned on HR's part

- he is actively committing treason and the leak of secrecy would get Jon killed

Also, note that Ned says "he is my blood", not "my son", if it were the case.

The timeline is virtually unknown.

When she was kidnapped, whether she was kidnapped, from where etc, etc. For all we know, Ned found a way to meet her again before Rhaegar finally got her to the toj (which I've said before strikes me as a safe location only from Ned). Maybe Ned quietly met Lyanna in KL while Brandon was bellowing at the gate. Doesn't seem like stealth is Ned's style exactly, but who knows?

Sorry but no. Just no. You're arguing something that goes totally against Ned's characterisation as well as against good storytelling. If there was something between Ned and Lyanna, we would have seen some clues, and there are none.

As for "eeewww" factor, how did all of you who have a problem with thought Lyanna & Ned get past Jamie & Cersei in AGOT? Specifically, Bran 2, p.84 of AGOT - a nice scene of brother and sister (twins) making love. You didn't drop the book at that point (not to mention at all the Targaryen incest), so why the squeamishness with Ned and Lyanna? btw Rickard & Lyarra were cousins.

The eeeewww factor is making Ned incestuous, who apparently has no such tendencies.

[Alia of the knife]

Ok, arguments are starting to make sense, the more I think about it. If Lyanna disappeared from the south (of which I am convinced), and with somewhat less than a year between the tourney and Lyanna's disappearance (I always pictured the tourney in the second half of the year, and Lyanna's disappearance seems to have occured around the middle of the year),it might indeed make sense that the betrothal had occured before the tourney. Though all the travel could have fit, sending Lyanna from Harrenhal to Winterfell and then back to Harrenhal might not make most sense. That said, someone had to escort Benjen back, and if Benjen did not accompany Brandon, then most likely Ned would have travelled to Winterfell with him.

Though I am still convinced that Robert and Lyanna should have at least seen each other once, since Robert went on and on abot her beauty (and if he liked the way she looked, it would help build a mental picture of how she was, without knowing much about her). So it would be great if the world book showed such an event (a tourney at Storm's End,perhaps?).

Though of course, both options remain possible, I will give the idea 'betrothal occured before Harrenhal' a bit more thought in my mind from now on.

This would also play into the notion of Robert not realizing how much he "loved" her until Rhaegar crowned her given we don't hear of any interaction between them suggesting Robert takes her for granted already.

[Ser Creighton]

Don't be so hard on Rhaegar for that... I mean, his main family died the day he was born, that's very tragic, not only because they died but because very Rhaegar's name day everybody remembers what happened.

I mean, picture the four years old Rhaegar all excited about being four years old with his little cake and his candles, waiting for his dad to says "happy name day!" and he's all "shut up, my grandfather died, go away...". No wonder he ended up believing he would be the Prince That Was Promised... "I will save everybody's asses and NO ONE will ever forget my name day, assholes!!!".

They were his extended family and he never met them. Well we should throw that last part on the App too sense I guess anything goes on there. But you need to add some part where is also crying or the people around him are crying, because wherever he goes tears are involved.

Maybe they do. Or maybe its one of those new pieces of data from canon sources and you'll just have to suck it up.

Maybe Rhaegar should of sucked it up, but he was always your favorite wasn't he? Well he is dead and I am still here, so maybe you need to suck it up! Why didn't you ever love me dad? Why? You want to know where I learned to burn people? I learned it by watching you! Ahhhhhh boo hoo, ahhhhhh boo hoo.

Seriously wet metal strings? Wet silver strings? The strings are ruined and his fingers are bloody. No totally irresponsible on his part, people are starving and he is just wasting silver cause he just has to go to Summerhall and be Emo.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

This would also play into the notion of Robert not realizing how much he "loved" her until Rhaegar crowned her given we don't hear of any interaction between them suggesting Robert takes her for granted already.

Ah, nice one :)

[MtnLion]

. . .

The timeline I gave earlier in this thread is accurate. There are embedded snippets of quotes that you can search for in the text:

• Mya Stone was born just before the tourney

Ned went directly from the Eyrie to Harrenhal

It appears that Robert met Lyanna after the first night of the tourney, since he was in a war of cups that night and had no interest in Lyanna or Ned

After the tourney (false spring, winter is coming) Ned and Lyanna are in Winterfell together, they talk about Mya

That is the same day that Rickard had given consent for Robert's offer

After the winter, Brandon left Winterfell to answer Petyr's challenge (SSM)

[Ser Leftwich]

The timeline I gave earlier in this thread is accurate. There are embedded snippets of quotes that you can search for in the text:

• Mya Stone was born just before the tourney
• Ned went directly from the Eyrie to Harrenhal
• It appears that Robert met Lyanna after the first night of the tourney, since he was in a war of cups that night and had no interest in Lyanna or Ned
• After the tourney (false spring, winter is coming) Ned and Lyanna are in Winterfell together, they talk about Mya
• That is the same day that Rickard had given consent for Robert's offer
• After the winter, Brandon left Winterfell to answer Petyr's challenge (SSM)

With the, 'after winter, Brandon left Winterfell to answer Petyr's challenge.' Say Ned traveled south with Brandon, only Ned turned East to go to the Vale. That time in WF and then the trip south would have given time for Brandon to talk “Often, and with some heat,” about Petyr to Ned.

[Ser Creighton]

The timeline I gave earlier in this thread is accurate. There are embedded snippets of quotes that you can search for in the text:

• Mya Stone was born just before the tourney
• Ned went directly from the Eyrie to Harrenhal
• It appears that Robert met Lyanna after the first night of the tourney, since he was in a war of cups that night and had no interest in Lyanna or Ned
• After the tourney (false spring, winter is coming) Ned and Lyanna are in Winterfell together, they talk about Mya
• That is the same day that Rickard had given consent for Robert's offer
• After the winter, Brandon left Winterfell to answer Petyr's challenge (SSM)

Mya may have been born up to 2 years before the tourney.

Do you have the timeline with the quotes? Would love to see it. Though logistics tend to be pretty bad in the books I think it is possible to get a rough estimate. Some of the app stuff appears to say it happened before, but I think the app has a lot of crap in it, yet if Martin approved it? You know it's just well it is what it is.

Honestly that whole era has some really strange movement.