R+L=J v.93

[Jon Weirgaryen]

GRRM recently mentioned

that Jayne Westerling would be

in the prologue, although its not at all clear

whether she will be the prologue POV or just a walk-on.

There's a link to the interview at top left and there have also been a couple of threads on the forum

From the Q&A at SDCC

Wait until the page is completely done loading:

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/07/25/live-coverage-game-thrones-panel-san-diego-comic-con/

Thanks, @Black Crow and @Rhaenys_Targaryen lovely to have you answer so quickly.

Love it!

Thanks, I am still very happy rethinking that moment in the book.

[Shinjuku Thief]

Isn't it funny how such basic facts need to be explained?

Indeed.

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Fair point, shame you follow it up with that troll comment, which is pure trolling.

My apologies. Some of these replies just seem a bit contrarian, simply to evoke an emotional response. I can honestly say that I don't believe anyone even considers E+L (N+L) = J to be anything other than ludicrous. Those that are promoting this vague, unsupported train of thought refuse to give any examples as to why they think as they do, so I think they're trolling here (but I suppose it was rude to say it out loud).

[Ygrain]

With

Jeyne Westerling

in the prologue, the chances are small that Darkstar will be there too.. but there's always the epilogue! A look inside his head would be cool indeed :D. I'm hoping with you from now on!

That doesn't necessarily mean that

Jeyne Westerling

will be a PoV character :P Though, given the difference in the setting, the chances for Darkstar being there, as well, are indeed small. Well, one can hope for an epilogue... :-)

I've got a horrible thought: what if Blackfish and Jeyne arrive to the BwB and Lady Stoneheart will have her hanged because of the Westerlings' scheming with Tywin? I can see Blackfish being so pissed with Cat because of this that he would side with Jaime against her

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Thanks, @Black Crow and @Rhaenys_Targaryen lovely to have you answer so quickly.

I am still feeling very much behind the news. The page mentioned by @Rhaenys_Targaryen says Jonathan Pryce will be playing Howland Reed. Jonathan Pryce however says he will be playing "High Sparrow".

Simple combinatorics tell me there's either

1. a mistake or

Jonathan Pryce will have two roles in the show

Howland Reed is the High Sparrow, at least in the show, as a slightly popular theory goes

Do we know which is right?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That doesn't necessarily mean that

Jeyne Westerling

will be a PoV character :P Though, given the difference in the setting, the chances for Darkstar being there, as well, are indeed small. Well, one can hope for an epilogue... :-)

I've got a horrible thought: what if Blackfish and Jeyne arrive to the BwB and Lady Stoneheart will have her hanged because of the Westerlings' scheming with Tywin? I can see Blackfish being so pissed with Cat because of this that he would side with Jaime against her

I didn't mean she would be the POV, I indeed meant she would simply appear, and that indeed the difference in locations would make it difficult for hem both to be in there

[Consigliere]

I am still feeling very much behind the news. The page mentioned by @Rhaenys_Targaryen says Jonathan Pryce will be playing Howland Reed. Jonathan Pryce however says he will be playing "High Sparrow".

Simple combinatorics tell me there's either

1. a mistake or

Jonathan Pryce will have two roles in the show

Howland Reed is the High Sparrow, at least in the show, as a slightly popular theory goes

Do we know which is right?

The articles I read says Pryce is playing the High Sparrow. The only mention of Howland Reed comes in the comments section of that article. The poster in all likelihood made a mistake.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I am still feeling very much behind the news. The page mentioned by @Rhaenys_Targaryen says Jonathan Pryce will be playing Howland Reed. Jonathan Pryce however says he will be playing "High Sparrow".

Simple combinatorics tell me there's either

• a mistake or
• Jonathan Pryce will have two roles in the show
• Howland Reed is the High Sparrow, at least in the show, as a slightly popular theory goes

Do we know which is right?

The actor will know best.. and he said high sparrow in the casting video..

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Edit: Just ignore my post, unless you want to know where the "Jonathan Pryce" will be playing "Howland Reed" is found.

The actor will know best.. and he said high sparrow in the casting video..

Let http://winteriscoming.net/2014/07/25/live-coverage-game-thrones-panel-san-diego-comic-con/ load fully, switch spoilers off, search for either "Jonathan Pryce" or "Howland Reed".

[BearQueen87]

I'm sticking with the theory that Darkstar is dangerous because he is a psycho with the complex of not being THE Dayne.

And he is of the night!

[BearQueen87]

My apologies. Some of these replies just seem a bit contrarian, simply to evoke an emotional response. I can honestly say that I don't believe anyone even considers E+L (N+L) = J to be anything other than ludicrous. Those that are promoting this vague, unsupported train of thought refuse to give any examples as to why they think as they do, so I think they're trolling here (but I suppose it was rude to say it out loud).

The timeline literally doesn't work for it, so....yeah it's crack pottery. I get the feeling some just don't want R+L = J to be true at all they'll look for any and all alternatives.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Edit: Just ignore my post, unless you want to know where the "Jonathan Pryce" will be playing "Howland Reed" is found.

Let http://winteriscoming.net/2014/07/25/live-coverage-game-thrones-panel-san-diego-comic-con/ load fully, switch spoilers off, search for either "Jonathan Pryce" or "Howland Reed".

Ah I see it, it was someone's comment that said such. The actor on the video (that should pop up after clicking Load More a few times) has the actor stating High Sparrow (which also makes a lot more sense, since Howland isn't in Feast/Dance, and the High Septon is ;) )

[sweetsunray]

There's a line somewhere about Jon in which it's said (paraphrasing) "His mother left nothing of herself in him". When I read this, I actually had the same thought as you, vis E+L=J.

It's Tyrion who thinks it of Jon, on the way to the wall, as they wait for camp being set up and Jon finds Tyrion reading a book about dragons. And he thinks it because Jon has the Stark look. It makes me smile, because I find it an ironic pun. Jon looks like a Stark exactly because he looks like his mother: she left all of her looks in him. Tyrion couldn't be father from the truth with his conclusion, but one can't fault him that. He didn't know Lyanna. It only shows how well Ed's ruse works. It's an interesting scene in symbology: Jon, allusion to his mother, and a book about dragons. Anyhow, Tyrion's conclusion can't be used as an argument, because Tyrion is making a conclusion on all that he knows: the claim that Jon is Ned's bastard. You can't make a correct conclusion, on false facts.

Perhaps, Tyrion might revize his mistake, when he overhears Jorah or Selmy talking about the Harrenhal tournament, and Lyanna Stark's and Rhaegar's disappearance. Maybe he's one of the very few who with the right small pieces of information can get deduct the truth.

[Ygrain]

And he is of the night!

That alone is enough to grant him death :( Gosh, what a sore loser.

[BearQueen87]

It's Tyrion who thinks it of Jon, on the way to the wall, as they wait for camp being set up and Jon finds Tyrion reading a book about dragons. And he thinks it because Jon has the Stark look. It makes me smile, because I find it an ironic pun. Jon looks like a Stark exactly because he looks like his mother: she left all of her looks in him. Tyrion couldn't be father from the truth with his conclusion, but one can't fault him that. He didn't know Lyanna. It only shows how well Ed's ruse works. It's an interesting scene in symbology: Jon, allusion to his mother, and a book about dragons. Anyhow, Tyrion's conclusion can't be used as an argument, because Tyrion is making a conclusion on all that he knows: the claim that Jon is Ned's bastard. You can't make a correct conclusion, on false facts.

Perhaps, Tyrion might revize his mistake, when he overhears Jorah or Selmy talking about the Harrenhal tournament, and Lyanna Stark's and Rhaegar's disappearance. Maybe he's one of the very few who with the right small pieces of information can get deduct the truth.

I think like most of Westeros, Tyrion know the basic events of Harrnehal and how the rebellion began; he was only a few years old at the time, but he's probably read about or heard all about it from his family. He could probably piece it all together but he's missing some critical information like Lyanna's disdain for Robert, Rhaegar's obsession with prophecy.

[sj4iy]

I think like most of Westeros, Tyrion know the basic events of Harrnehal and how the rebellion began; he was only a few years old at the time, but he's probably read about or heard all about it from his family. He could probably piece it all together but he's missing some critical information like Lyanna's disdain for Robert, Rhaegar's obsession with prophecy.

Tyrion wouldn't need to know either of those to piece together the truth. He would know that Rhaegar 'took' Lyanna. He knows how old Jon is. He knows what kind of man Ned was. I think, if Tyrion simply knew the circumstances of Ned coming back with Lyanna's bones and a newborn baby, he could figure it out very quickly. He wouldn't know about the legitimacy, but most people wouldn't.

[BearQueen87]

Tyrion wouldn't need to know either of those to piece together the truth. He would know that Rhaegar 'took' Lyanna. He knows how old Jon is. He knows what kind of man Ned was. I think, if Tyrion simply knew the circumstances of Ned coming back with Lyanna's bones and a newborn baby, he could figure it out very quickly. He wouldn't know about the legitimacy, but most people wouldn't.

Tyrion already "knows" the circumstances of Ned coming back with Lyanna's bones and a newborn baby--Ned fathered a bastard and was too honorable to leave the baby and he brought Lyanna's bones because she was his sister and wanted to rest in Winterfell.

But knowing that Lyanna had less than happy feelings about Robert (didn't want to marry him), figuring out that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhal (had a rebellious streak to her and perhaps Rhaegar knew this), and learning that Rhaegar had an obsession with prophecy (that he needed, at minimum, a third head for the dragon) would be a lot of dot connecting.

[sweetsunray]

I understand why one would regard "E+L=J" a trollish idea. The whole incestuous idea of Ed with Lyanna has no grounds whatsoever for either character. It's absurd, and of course it has an "eww" factor. "eww" + "absurd" = usually "trollish". So E+A=T ;)

[sweetsunray]

I think like most of Westeros, Tyrion know the basic events of Harrnehal and how the rebellion began; he was only a few years old at the time, but he's probably read about or heard all about it from his family. He could probably piece it all together but he's missing some critical information like Lyanna's disdain for Robert, Rhaegar's obsession with prophecy.

True, but also "out of sight, out of mind". What I was playing at was not that he didn't' know the general history... For Tyrion though it's like he knows where the mushrooms are, and half a mile in the other direction he can find the celery, and another mile in a third different direction he can pull out some carrots. But it's only when seeing the mushrooms, celery and carrots lying together on the kitchen table that Tyrion can think "Ahah, soup!" So, he knows pieces, and not all tiny pieces, but in general... he just hasn't linked Lyanna dead in a tower after being "raped a thousand times" and Ned returning with her bones and a baby. You don't really need to even know that Lyanna had a disdain for Robert or Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy to put 2 and 2 together. But people (of Westeros) are being distracted about the murder of Elia Martel and her children, about the gruesome way Brandon and Rickard Stark died. Lyanna has become some abstract side story with little or no witnesses.

What has been the drive behind readers figuring it out: Lyanna as remembered correctly by Ned, and her 'voice' of 'promise me'. Nobody in Westeros considers her much, because a) women have no voice in society. b ) she died without witnesses (except for Ned and HR) to gossip about how or when. But it's been her request, her will, her desire for her son to live and grow up amongst his people.

[Ygrain]

Ned coming back with Lyanna's bones and a newborn baby

Ned returning with her bones and a baby.

Actually, this is something never stated explicitely in the text. We don't know if the bones, Ned and the baby arrived together or separately. If e.g. Ned travelled with Lyanna's bones and picked Jon somewhere along the road, or had him transported straight to Winterfell by a separate route, there would be no dots to connect. Furthermore, even if they did arrive together, this still may not be a common knowledge. Bastards are hardly noteworthy and the majority of Westeros would learn of Jon's existence months to years after his arrival, which would again separate the events and offer no ground for dot connecting.