R+L=J v.93

[J. Stargaryen]

Ned didn't tell Jon because he is Jon's father as Jon already knows.

And Lyanna is his mother, which he can't tell him.

Corbon ((I should have multi-posted, but I'm editing this in instead)): No it is not. The question was asked, "what are the counter-theories?" and the answer really is that there are none. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be any, or that everything might not change entirely with new data in the next book, just that there are no theories yet espoused that have the solidity to be called an alternative. They all, so far, have enormous and fatal flaws.

My reply:

I look at it differently. R+L=J is too obvious. A good writer (which GRRM is) doesn't give away the central mystery that soon (what was it, p.450 out of 4,500 when we learned of the toj?). Any writer worth his salt makes the false lead (which is what I suspect R+L is) more convincing than the real one. My only question at this point is how far into ADOS will I have to read to finally know the truth.

Weren't you 98% sure, like, a week ago?

Obvious being relative.

It's not rational, maybe, but I'm kind of attached to the E + L = J notion at the moment.

It's not rational, which is probably why you're attached to it.

[Ygrain]

Well let me ask you.

Let's say we have a pov character tell us he saw the butler put a knife in his pocket. Later that same knife is found in the murdered man's back with the butler's finger prints on it. Did the butler murder the dead man? Sure looks like it. All the clues you have point to the butler. Is the writer dishonest because he held back clues that point to the brother in law (or who ever)? Is that not how mysteries and whodunnits have always been written? And what is ASOIAF if not a bunch of mysteries tied up in a bundle with some swords and some dragons?

Only, your example with the butler is a parallel to Ashara/Wylla/ FMD, not R+L.

And, yeah, if the writer completely withheld (and I mean here till the very end, not just disclosing them later on) the clues leading to the real murderer, he was dishonest, or rather, a poor writer. Good whodunnits conceal the clues in plain sight, so the reader can see them but usually doesn't realize their significance at first and realizes what they lead to only in hindsight. - Which is what GRRM is doing with R+L.

A good example is Agatha Christie's Murder of Roger Ackroyd,

where the PoV character is the murderer, so e.g. when he looks around the room to see if everything was alright, he means "ready for the murder", but this becomes clear only in hindsight.

[stateofdissipation]

Thanks for the many replies to my doubts about this theory. I will not answer them all individually but will try my best to cover them.

First the Stark look. Yes that would be important. But throughout the north there must be many descendants with that look. The Karstarks for example. And surely there must have been many others scattered around in the past, especially Snows. Do we know for sure that females can pass on the Stark look? It may be only passed down by the father.

As for the Chekhov gun this does not really apply as much in sprawling epics as in plays, as there are many hundreds of such guns if you wish to interpret them that way. The author assaults us with so much history it would be hard not to find an arsenal of weapons. The Chekov wall would be covered with hundreds of such guns. Instead of Chevhov I would like to quote Crocodile Dundee. There appears to be no evidence that Lyana even had a child (if so please correct me). On the other hand Ned is mentioned as having had a bastard child with a fisherwoman around the time of RR on Sweetsister and given the name Jon Snow. Now that is what I call a knife.

Lyana's promise is also pretty vague and could be interpreted several ways. I would also have expected Ned to let Cat in on the secret (no matter what promise was made) if only for Jon's benefit. Ned's 'honour' has already been sullied by claiming to have had a bastard child.

And I still feel Jon was treated badly at WF, much worse than even Theon. But i could be wrong on that.

These are some of the niggling doubts I have about the theory, although I am still inclined to believe it on balance.

As for the Chekhov gun this does not really apply as much in sprawling epics as in plays, as there are many hundreds of such guns if you wish to interpret them that way. The author assaults us with so much history it would be hard not to find an arsenal of weapons. The Chekov wall would be covered with hundreds of such guns. Instead of Chevhov I would like to quote Crocodile Dundee.

Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there.

—Anton Chekhov

It applies.... only the relation of the gun and its going off may be extended beyond the third chapter.

There appears to be no evidence that Lyana even had a child (if so please correct me).

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409 paperback.

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. .---aGoT page 410 paperback.

Promise me Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood.--aGoT page 608 paperback.

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650 paperback.

"That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."

- AFfC p. 21

On the other hand Ned is mentioned as having had a bastard child with a fisherwoman around the time of RR on Sweetsister and given the name Jon Snow. Now that is what I call a knife.

congrats... you have a knife in a gunfight....

Lyanna did have a baby... it may or may not be Jon....

[BearQueen87]

:P

They aren't exactly the same parallels, but the motivations are the same- the heart.

I agree I don't think it was just Lyannas beauty, but that he did tentatively get to know her when he found her as tKotLT. (I think its ironic that Aerys had visions of this northern Knight who threatened his House, and sent Rhaegar straight into the "trap").

I'm really hoping that Bran can somehow "see" all this. I'd love to read about R and L's first interaction

I don't think he would have ridden "straight past his wife," without so much as stopping by her box and forewarning her as he certainly wouldn't have had any foreknowledge of his victory to discuss it with her and warn her prior, unless it was a "fixed" win

I don't think he would have done that either, which is why I wonder if he told Elia beforehand that he had found Lyanna as the Knight and was planning on crowning her. He might have left out that he was attracted to her, of course.

[BearQueen87]

Weren't you 98% sure, like, a week ago?

It's not rational, which is probably why you're attached to it.

About the false leads: we've had tons of them. Ashara, Wylla, the fisherwoman. Those are the false leads because it takes a lot of detective work to get to R + L = J. It goes back to the idea that just because some people have manged to figure it out and put all the pieces together, then it's suddenly too obvious and GRRM wouldn't do "obvious."

[honeyed chicken]

Is anybody else having trouble seeing pages 5 & 6 of this thread? I am.

Weren't you 98% sure, like, a week ago?

It's not rational, which is probably why you're attached to it.

Yes. I was and pretty much still am.

Based on what we know, I can't argue against R+L=J, not effectively and keep any shred of integrity.

It's just a gut feeling that there's major wrinkle coming.

The R&L timeline as we know it presents an insurmountable obstacle to my outside the box E+L notion. The caveat as always is that we have very little text to go on and an awareness that there are some major icebergs in this sea (back to my Titanic analogy).

Lyarra Stark is one, Howland Reed is another, Barristan Selmy is far from done telling what he knows, Jorah Mormont knows somethings too, Benjen may afterall turn up (he's been safely hiddenaway for a while now), after all the time Robert and Ned spent in the Vale/Eyrie I have to feel somebody is going to blab something to Sansa either because they don't know she's Ned's daughter, or because they see through the Alayne Stone ruse and feel she needs to know a truth about her dad. And at some point we will find out the truth about the Dayne - Stark connection.

I would frankly be shocked if these revelations play out the way any here predicts they will.

Only, your example with the butler is a parallel to Ashara/Wylla/ FMD, not R+L.
And, yeah, if the writer completely withheld (and I mean here till the very end, not just disclosing them later on) the clues leading to the real murderer, he was dishonest, or rather, a poor writer. Good whodunnits conceal the clues in plain sight, so the reader can see them but usually doesn't realize their significance at first and realizes what they lead to only in hindsight. - Which is what GRRM is doing with R+L.

A good example is Agatha Christie's Murder of Roger Ackroyd,

where the PoV character is the murderer, so e.g. when he looks around the room to see if everything was alright, he means "ready for the murder", but this becomes clear only in hindsight.

I think that's an excellent example, but Agatha Christie was working within 2-300 page increments - George has 6,000! That means there are going to false leads from the false leads. And maybe the false lead turns out to have been the real one.

The timeline is of huge importance here and the fact that we don't even know when or how Lyanna left her family means our ignorance is profound:

- did she leave under her own power purely out of longing for Rhaegar (a big + for R+L=J)

- was she taken away against her will? (also a big + for R+L=J)

- did she leave under a cloud because of something that happened within the family? How did her brothers react to her after the crowning as QoLaB at Harrenhal? And did she leave from WF or from somewhere closer to KL as the family was approaching RR for Brandon's wedding? (less certain what it means for R+L=J)

- after she left, did she stay away completely never to be seen again, or did she return for a time and leave again?? Or if she never did return, did any of her family get a chance to see her again at any point? Were she & Rhaegar in the city when Brandon arrived? I've always assumed no, but I can't recall if that's in the text.

The placement of the toj continues to bug me. The only two inhabited castles near it are either Baratheon or Martell affiliated. The Baratheon's were the "enemy" and the Martells had reason to be mad at Rhaegar for abandoning Elia for Lyanna. It's not safe from Aerys - Hightower manages to find him there. As I've said before, Ned seems to be the one this location protects from the most. And then the KG lay down their lives to prevent Ned getting to Lyanna. . . ?

There's something that's just not right, but I can't be certain what it is.

That's why I started looking at Ned as the dad . . . which explains how much Jon looks like Ned and has his sense of honor.

And does not appear to have Lyanna's wolf blood, but has strong warg abilities.

It also might explain why some of the people closest to Ned are shunning him - Howland Reed, and his mother, Lyarra (true we don't know she's live, but we also don't have reason to think she's dead).

And Varys' lack of interest in Jon is explained if V knows he's not a Targ. And if J was Targ, I'm pretty sure LF would have found a way to exploit that. On the other hand, if Jon was the product of an incestuous relationship LF would exploit that for certain - so that does not help.

So here's where I'm with the mainstream:

Lyanna was Jon's mom.

Rhaegar was with Lyanna at the toj at the right time to be Jon's dad.

Jon was born at the toj.

after that. . .

????

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I'm really hoping that Bran can somehow "see" all this. I'd love to read about R and L's first interaction

Yay!

I don't think he would have done that either, which is why I wonder if he told Elia beforehand that he had found Lyanna as the Knight and was planning on crowning her. He might have left out that he was attracted to her, of course.

Been away a week and missed a whole R+L=J thread and haven't caught up yet reading it all. Thanks for slowing down though.

On the matter I am quoting, I have been wondering (as others have, too), if Rhaegar tweaked his victory in some way. I remember the Kingsguard and honour arguments and Ser Barristan's ignorance of it as indications against the idea.

But I just now remember show Ned telling Jaime he would not want to show his true fighting strength, as not to lose his advantage when it comes to a close encounter of the life and death sort. Or among the lines, I don't remember the words, nor do I recall if anything like it was in the books (I think not).

Idea: Maybe Rhaegar pulled some legal jousting tricks he'd never been seen doing before?

Just my idea of the very moment.

[stateofdissipation]

"...How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"-- Cersei aGoT page 79 paperback

"The maid was Loras tyrell`s sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those that said she looked like Lyanna"--aGoT page 269 paperback

"A year ago I schemed to make the girl (Margaery Tyrell) Robert's queen."--Renly aCoK page 478 paperback

The source (in law or religion) of Cersei's concern and Renly's scheme is not given. It clearly is not the Targaryen polygamy from the time of dragons.

Lyanna plays in to both the concern and the scheme.

Hypothesis-- Rhaegar put Elia aside for Lyanna.

The question is does anybody have anything from aSoIaF that has polygamy practiced in the Seven Kingdoms?

[BearQueen87]

Is anybody else having trouble seeing pages 5 & 6 of this thread? I am.

Yes. I was and pretty much still am.

Based on what we know, I can't argue against R+L=J, not effectively and keep any shred of integrity.

It's just a gut feeling that there's major wrinkle coming.

The major wrinkle is that R was not raping L; that they were in love and married. Suddenly Jon Snow isn't a bastard at all!

The R&L timeline as we know it presents an insurmountable obstacle to my outside the box E+L notion. The caveat as always is that we have very little text to go on and an awareness that there are some major icebergs in this sea (back to my Titanic analogy).

Do you really think that honorable god-fearing/loving Ned Stark committed incest?

I would frankly be shocked if these revelations play out the way any here predicts they will.

I don't think we, as a collective, have predicted how anything will play out in the revelation, though. There are ideas about Bran. the weirnet, Lyanna's tomb, and Surprise Howland Reed but I don't think there is a collective "this is what will happen" mentality from posters here.

That's why I started looking at Ned as the dad . . . which explains how much Jon looks like Ned and has his sense of honor

You acknowledge that Ned has honor but think he might have committed incest, like the one thing the gods of the north and south frown upon, unless Targaryen who are "above" such things?

[sj4iy]

Is anybody else having trouble seeing pages 5 & 6 of this thread? I am.

Yes. I was and pretty much still am.

Based on what we know, I can't argue against R+L=J, not effectively and keep any shred of integrity.

It's just a gut feeling that there's major wrinkle coming.

The R&L timeline as we know it presents an insurmountable obstacle to my outside the box E+L notion. The caveat as always is that we have very little text to go on and an awareness that there are some major icebergs in this sea (back to my Titanic analogy).

Lyarra Stark is one, Howland Reed is another, after all the time Robert and Ned spent in the Vale/Eyrie I have to feel somebody is going to blab something to Sansa either because they don't know she's Ned's daughter, or because they see through the ruse and feel she needs to know a truth about her dad. And at some point we will find out the truth about the Dayne - Stark connection.

I would frankly be shocked if these revelations play out the way any here predicts they will.

I think that's an excellent example, but Agatha Christie was working within 2-300 page increments - George has 6,000! That means there are going to false leads from the false leads. And maybe the false lead turns out to have been the real one.

The timeline is of huge importance here and the fact that we don't even know when or how Lyanna left her family means our ignorance is profound:

- did she leave under her own power purely out of longing for Rhaegar (a big + for R+L=J)

- was she taken away against her will? (also a big + for R+L=J)

- did she leave under a cloud because of something that happened within the family? How did her brothers react to her after the crowning as QoLaB at Harrenhal? And did she leave from WF or from somewhere closer to KL as the family was approaching RR for Brandon's wedding? (less certain what it means for R+L=J)

- after she left, did she stay away completely never to be seen again, or did she return for a time and leave again?? Or if she never did return, did any of her family get a chance to see her again at any point? Were she & Rhaegar in the city when Brandon arrived? I've always assumed no, but I can't recall if that's in the text.

The placement of the toj continues to bug me. The only two inhabited castles near it are either Baratheon or Martell affiliated. The Baratheon's were the "enemy" and the Martells had reason to be mad at Rhaegar for abandoning Elia for Lyanna. It's not safe from Aerys - Hightower manages to find him there. As I've said before, Ned seems to be the one this location protects from the most. And then the KG lay down their lives to prevent Ned getting to Lyanna. . . ?

There's something that's just not right, but I can't be certain what it is.

That's why I started looking at Ned as the dad . . . which explains how much Jon looks like Ned and has his sense of honor.

And does not appear to have Lyanna's wolf blood, but has strong warg abilities.

It also might explain why some of the people closest to Ned are shunning him - Howland Reed, and his mother, Lyarra (true we don't know she's live, but we also don't have reason to think she's dead).

And Varys' lack of interest in Jon is explained if V knows he's not a Targ. And if J was Targ, I'm pretty sure LF would have found a way to exploit that. On the other hand, if Jon was the product of an incestuous relationship LF would exploit that for certain - so that does not help.

So here's where I'm with the mainstream:

Lyanna was Jon's mom.

Rhaegar was with Lyanna at the toj at the right time to be Jon's dad.

Jon was born at the toj.

after that. . .

????

You're forgetting the side clues. The ones that aren't directly related to Lyanna and Rhaegar, but to Jon himself.

Mormont's raven keeps calling Jon "King". Not just once, but several times. The bird isn't an ordinary bird, and is likely warged by BR.

There are other examples of foreshadowing for Jon being the King, as well. "Bastards aren't allowed to hurt trueborn princes", "the kings are hidden under the snow", "his blood is no more royal than mine", etc. It's all over the place. Even in the show, Tormund says that Jon Snow can "never be a kneeler again". Jon also ironically saves the life of a prince from death by hiding him as the bastard son of Sam.

If it were all simply related to Lyanna and Rhaegar and straight up facts, it would be one thing. But there are many other literary devices in use, as well, when lend credence to Jon's true birthright.

Rhaegar is also stated several times throughout the text to have a strong sense of honor, even by Ned himself. But you forget that Jon is described to have the same exact personality as Rhaegar does...sullen, quite and thoughtful. Jon also has Rhaegar's build...slender and quick.

[BearQueen87]

The placement of the toj continues to bug me. The only two inhabited castles near it are either Baratheon or Martell affiliated. The Baratheon's were the "enemy" and the Martells had reason to be mad at Rhaegar for abandoning Elia for Lyanna. It's not safe from Aerys - Hightower manages to find him there. As I've said before, Ned seems to be the one this location protects from the most. And then the KG lay down their lives to prevent Ned getting to Lyanna. . . ?

Sorry, coming back to this, but you're forgetting Starfall. It was not as close, yes, but it's also incredibly loyal to the Targaryen's. Arthur Dayne is of that house, Ned goes there right after tearing down the Tower of Joy, they take up Ned's story and provide cover, people have wondered if Edric wasn't named for Ned Stark, but a slight variation.

[Ygrain]

Is anybody else having trouble seeing pages 5 & 6 of this thread? I am.

Yes. I was and pretty much still am.

Based on what we know, I can't argue against R+L=J, not effectively and keep any shred of integrity.

It's just a gut feeling that there's major wrinkle coming.

The R&L timeline as we know it presents an insurmountable obstacle to my outside the box E+L notion. The caveat as always is that we have very little text to go on and an awareness that there are some major icebergs in this sea (back to my Titanic analogy).

Lyarra Stark is one, Howland Reed is another, Barristan Selmy is far from done telling what he knows, Jorah Mormont knows somethings too, Benjen may afterall turn up (he's been safely hiddenaway for a while now), after all the time Robert and Ned spent in the Vale/Eyrie I have to feel somebody is going to blab something to Sansa either because they don't know she's Ned's daughter, or because they see through the Alayne Stone ruse and feel she needs to know a truth about her dad. And at some point we will find out the truth about the Dayne - Stark connection.

I would frankly be shocked if these revelations play out the way any here predicts they will.

I think that's an excellent example, but Agatha Christie was working within 2-300 page increments - George has 6,000! That means there are going to false leads from the false leads. And maybe the false lead turns out to have been the real one.

The timeline is of huge importance here and the fact that we don't even know when or how Lyanna left her family means our ignorance is profound:

- did she leave under her own power purely out of longing for Rhaegar (a big + for R+L=J)

- was she taken away against her will? (also a big + for R+L=J)

- did she leave under a cloud because of something that happened within the family? How did her brothers react to her after the crowning as QoLaB at Harrenhal? And did she leave from WF or from somewhere closer to KL as the family was approaching RR for Brandon's wedding? (less certain what it means for R+L=J)

- after she left, did she stay away completely never to be seen again, or did she return for a time and leave again?? Or if she never did return, did any of her family get a chance to see her again at any point? Were she & Rhaegar in the city when Brandon arrived? I've always assumed no, but I can't recall if that's in the text.

The placement of the toj continues to bug me. The only two inhabited castles near it are either Baratheon or Martell affiliated. The Baratheon's were the "enemy" and the Martells had reason to be mad at Rhaegar for abandoning Elia for Lyanna. It's not safe from Aerys - Hightower manages to find him there. As I've said before, Ned seems to be the one this location protects from the most. And then the KG lay down their lives to prevent Ned getting to Lyanna. . . ?

There's something that's just not right, but I can't be certain what it is.

That's why I started looking at Ned as the dad . . . which explains how much Jon looks like Ned and has his sense of honor.

And does not appear to have Lyanna's wolf blood, but has strong warg abilities.

It also might explain why some of the people closest to Ned are shunning him - Howland Reed, and his mother, Lyarra (true we don't know she's live, but we also don't have reason to think she's dead).

And Varys' lack of interest in Jon is explained if V knows he's not a Targ. And if J was Targ, I'm pretty sure LF would have found a way to exploit that. On the other hand, if Jon was the product of an incestuous relationship LF would exploit that for certain - so that does not help.

So here's where I'm with the mainstream:

Lyanna was Jon's mom.

Rhaegar was with Lyanna at the toj at the right time to be Jon's dad.

Jon was born at the toj.

after that. . .

????

GRRM's 6,000 pages deal with events unrelated to the Rebellion, so the clues are actually few and far between.

It is stated somewhere that when Aerys learned why Brandon went bananas, he wanted to summon Rhaegar to explain himself but no-one knew where the Prince had gone, and no-one recalls Lyanna in KL.

The fact that Hightower made it to ToJ doesn't mean that Aerys knew; Hightower might have been directed to Summerhall or Starfall, where he would find only Batman who would tell him "boss, just a wee bit further".

The KG don't let anywhere near Lyanna and her baby any guy who is BF with the guy who benefited from and condoned the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys.

Jon does appear to have the same problem with authorities as Lyanna did, and Lyanna's exceptional riding skill might have been a result of warging potential.

Varys' lack of interest in Jon is best explained by Varys' ignorance of his existence, and the same goes for LF.

[stateofdissipation]

Is anybody else having trouble seeing pages 5 & 6 of this thread? I am.

Yes. I was and pretty much still am.

Based on what we know, I can't argue against R+L=J, not effectively and keep any shred of integrity.

It's just a gut feeling that there's major wrinkle coming.

The R&L timeline as we know it presents an insurmountable obstacle to my outside the box E+L notion. The caveat as always is that we have very little text to go on and an awareness that there are some major icebergs in this sea (back to my Titanic analogy).

Lyarra Stark is one, Howland Reed is another, after all the time Robert and Ned spent in the Vale/Eyrie I have to feel somebody is going to blab something to Sansa either because they don't know she's Ned's daughter, or because they see through the ruse and feel she needs to know a truth about her dad. And at some point we will find out the truth about the Dayne - Stark connection.

I would frankly be shocked if these revelations play out the way any here predicts they will.

I think that's an excellent example, but Agatha Christie was working within 2-300 page increments - George has 6,000! That means there are going to false leads from the false leads. And maybe the false lead turns out to have been the real one.

The timeline is of huge importance here and the fact that we don't even know when or how Lyanna left her family means our ignorance is profound:

- did she leave under her own power purely out of longing for Rhaegar (a big + for R+L=J)

- was she taken away against her will? (also a big + for R+L=J)

- did she leave under a cloud because of something that happened within the family? How did her brothers react to her after the crowning as QoLaB at Harrenhal? And did she leave from WF or from somewhere closer to KL as the family was approaching RR for Brandon's wedding? (less certain what it means for R+L=J)

- after she left, did she stay away completely never to be seen again, or did she return for a time and leave again?? Or if she never did return, did any of her family get a chance to see her again at any point? Were she & Rhaegar in the city when Brandon arrived? I've always assumed no, but I can't recall if that's in the text.

The placement of the toj continues to bug me. The only two inhabited castles near it are either Baratheon or Martell affiliated. The Baratheon's were the "enemy" and the Martells had reason to be mad at Rhaegar for abandoning Elia for Lyanna. It's not safe from Aerys - Hightower manages to find him there. As I've said before, Ned seems to be the one this location protects from the most. And then the KG lay down their lives to prevent Ned getting to Lyanna. . . ?

There's something that's just not right, but I can't be certain what it is.

That's why I started looking at Ned as the dad . . . which explains how much Jon looks like Ned and has his sense of honor.

And does not appear to have Lyanna's wolf blood, but has strong warg abilities.

It also might explain why some of the people closest to Ned are shunning him - Howland Reed, and his mother, Lyarra (true we don't know she's live, but we also don't have reason to think she's dead).

And Varys' lack of interest in Jon is explained if V knows he's not a Targ. And if J was Targ, I'm pretty sure LF would have found a way to exploit that. On the other hand, if Jon was the product of an incestuous relationship LF would exploit that for certain - so that does not help.

So here's where I'm with the mainstream:

Lyanna was Jon's mom.

Rhaegar was with Lyanna at the toj at the right time to be Jon's dad.

Jon was born at the toj.

after that. . .

????

Yes. I was and pretty much still am.

Based on what we know, I can't argue against R+L=J, not effectively and keep any shred of integrity.

Lyanna and Rhaegar had a baby...

Ned made a promise...

There is something special about Jon...

All R+L=J does is remove the "..." it is not rocket surgery...

It's just a gut feeling that there's major wrinkle coming.

The R&L timeline as we know it presents an insurmountable obstacle to my outside the box E+L notion. The caveat as always is that we have very little text to go on and an awareness that there are some major icebergs in this sea (back to my Titanic analogy).

Lyarra Stark is one, Howland Reed is another, after all the time Robert and Ned spent in the Vale/Eyrie I have to feel somebody is going to blab something to Sansa either because they don't know she's Ned's daughter, or because they see through the ruse and feel she needs to know a truth about her dad. And at some point we will find out the truth about the Dayne - Stark connection.

I would frankly be shocked if these revelations play out the way any here predicts they will.

There is a shaky timeline at best.

Ned was gone a year.

If Ned was with Lyanna near Harrenhal.

Brandon immediately went to KL when he heard the news he was on his way to Riverrun, News of his arrest and charges most likely went by raven. Rickard went to answer the charges most likely by boat (like Catelyn).

Aerys then called for Ned and Robert's heads. Again, most likely by raven.

That takes maybe a month, We have Cat's travel time and messenger ravens for an example.

Ned gets the news while by Harenhal and goes immediately to Riverrun, marries, and knocks up Cat.

You then have Jon one month older than Robb, Ned returns to Winterfell

I think that's an excellent example, but Agatha Christie was working within 2-300 page increments - George has 6,000! That means there are going to false leads from the false leads. And maybe the false lead turns out to have been the real one.

The timeline is of huge importance here and the fact that we don't even know when or how Lyanna left her family means our ignorance is profound:

- did she leave under her own power purely out of longing for Rhaegar (a big + for R+L=J)

- was she taken away against her will? (also a big + for R+L=J)

- did she leave under a cloud because of something that happened within the family? How did her brothers react to her after the crowning as QoLaB at Harrenhal? And did she leave from WF or from somewhere closer to KL as the family was approaching RR for Brandon's wedding? (less certain what it means for R+L=J)

- after she left, did she stay away completely never to be seen again, or did she return for a time and leave again?? Or if she never did return, did any of her family get a chance to see her again at any point? Were she & Rhaegar in the city when Brandon arrived? I've always assumed no, but I can't recall if that's in the text.

Nice list of unanswered questions.

The placement of the toj continues to bug me. The only two inhabited castles near it are either Baratheon or Martell affiliated. The Baratheon's were the "enemy" and the Martells had reason to be mad at Rhaegar for abandoning Elia for Lyanna. It's not safe from Aerys - Hightower manages to find him there. As I've said before, Ned seems to be the one this location protects from the most. And then the KG lay down their lives to prevent Ned getting to Lyanna. . . ?

I know. It's weird.

There's something that's just not right, but I can't be certain what it is.

That's why I started looking at Ned as the dad . . . which explains how much Jon looks like Ned and has his sense of honor.

And does not appear to have Lyanna's wolf blood, but has strong warg abilities.

It also might explain why some of the people closest to Ned are shunning him - Howland Reed, and his mother, Lyarra (true we don't know she's live, but we also don't have reason to think she's dead).

And Varys' lack of interest in Jon is explained if V knows he's not a Targ. And if J was Targ, I'm pretty sure LF would have found a way to exploit that. On the other hand, if Jon was the product of an incestuous relationship LF would exploit that for certain - so that does not help.

Varys and LF do not have any pull in the North. The bastard story seems to cover Ned from both,

So here's where I'm with the mainstream:

Lyanna was Jon's mom.

Rhaegar was with Lyanna at the toj at the right time to be Jon's dad.

Jon was born at the toj.

after that. . .

????

Lyanna had a baby...

R and L were together at the right time to make the baby...

the baby was born at the ToJ...

Ned brought a baby home...

Many a slip in "..."

[Ser Creighton]

Yes they did, but If Rhaegar and Lyanna went elsewhere prior to the TOJ, I hope it wasn't because Rhaegar embezzled from Crown accounts and absconded with Lyanna to Las Essos to get married in the Elvis chapel. :thumbsup:

Viva Las Volantis,

Bright light city gonna set my soul

Gonna set my soul on fire

Got a whole lot of money that's ready to burn,

So get those stakes up higher

There's a thousand pretty women waitin' out there

And they're all livin' dragon may care

And I'm just the dragon with love to spare

Viva Las Volantis, Viva Las Volantis

Elvis and Rhaegar equal the same. People still argue both are alive, both are royalty, both famed singers and neither has ever been seen with the other. It's confirmed, I think this needs to be pinned, I mean come on just look at those Lyrics, Elvis was clearly a secret Targ at the very least.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I bet Rhaegar wrote a song about Lyanna.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Been away a week and missed a whole R+L=J thread and haven't caught up yet reading it all. Thanks for slowing down though.

You missed only one? That's not too bad.. :P

Varys' lack of interest in Jon is best explained by Varys' ignorance of his existence, and the same goes for LF.

Exactly. Varys and LF are good, but even they aren't all-knowing.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Elvis and Rhaegar equal the same. People still argue both are alive, both are royalty, both famed singers and neither has ever been seen with the other. It's confirmed, I think this needs to be pinned, I mean come on just look at those Lyrics, Elvis was clearly a secret Targ at the very least.

Need further proof?

I feel my temperature rising

Help me, I'm flaming

I must be a hundred and nine

Burning, burning, burning

And nothing can cool me

I just might turn into smoke

But I feel fine

[...]

I'm just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

QED

;)

[BearQueen87]

Viva Las Volantis,

Bright light city gonna set my soul

Gonna set my soul on fire

Got a whole lot of money that's ready to burn,

So get those stakes up higher

There's a thousand pretty women waitin' out there

And they're all livin' dragon may care

And I'm just the dragon with love to spare

Viva Las Volantis, Viva Las Volantis

Elvis and Rhaegar equal the same. People still argue both are alive, both are royalty, both famed singers and neither has ever been seen with the other. It's confirmed, I think this needs to be pinned, I mean come on just look at those Lyrics, Elvis was clearly a secret Targ at the very least.

Need further proof?

I feel my temperature rising

Help me, I'm flaming

I must be a hundred and nine

Burning, burning, burning

And nothing can cool me

I just might turn into smoke

But I feel fine

[...]

I'm just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

QED

;)

This is the real SONG of ice and fire, isn't it?

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Jon was conceived while they were doing the naughty during Elvis songs.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Jon was conceived while they were doing the naughty during Elvis songs.

No other way to get down.

As for the people saying R+L=J is too obvious, I think that's a stretch. The books have been out since I think '96(?) so people have had plenty of time to piece it together. I myself didn't put it together till I read about Jon Connington remembering Rhaegar saying the Dragon must have 3 heads, and even then I didn't think Jon was legitimate. It wasn't till I started talking about it that I pieced it together. I realize I'm opening myself up to "Well you're just stupid" remarks but that is again a feeble argument