R+L=J v.93

[sandywinder]

How else do you interpret it?

I can not interpret it with any degree of confidence any way because there is simply not enough data to do so (although it is obviously very important to her) - just supposition. And I just find it rather odd that Lyana would be pregnant for nine months-ish, have a baby and not a word of it ever gets out. I think you yourself mentioned elsewhere how hard it was to keep a secret in Westeros (but I may be wrong with that, it may have been someone else). Even if Rheagar had wanted it to be kept secret guards, maids, etc would have talked about it sooner or later. And why does GRRM even bother to mention about the fisherwoman if readers have already guessed about Lyana? That makes little sense to. What reason has anyone on Sweetsister to lie about Ned and the fisherwoman?

I also feel that if Ned had told Cat about it (though not right from the outset I agree) it would have lifted a huge cloud over their marriage and her feelings for Jon. If the theory is true it shows Ned having a huge degree of mistrust over Cat. And Cat seems to me to be a trustworthy, dutiful wife.

[BearQueen87]

I can not interpret it with any degree of confidence any way because there is simply not enough data to do so (although it is obviously very important to her) - just supposition. And I just find it rather odd that Lyana would be pregnant for nine months-ish, have a baby and not a word of it ever gets out. I think you yourself mentioned elsewhere how hard it was to keep a secret in Westeros (but I may be wrong with that, it may have been someone else). Even if Rheagar had wanted it to be kept secret guards, maids, etc would have talked about it sooner or later. And why does GRRM even bother to mention about the fisherwoman if readers have already guessed about Lyana? That makes little sense to. What reason has anyone on Sweetsister to lie about Ned and the fisherwoman?

I also feel that if Ned had told Cat about it (though not right from the outset I agree) it would have lifted a huge cloud over their marriage and her feelings for Jon. If the theory is true it shows Ned having a huge degree of mistrust over Cat. And Cat seems to me to be a trustworthy, dutiful wife.

1) It's important to understand the people in question who would have known and their status in the story at present. First, the ToJ is in a very (very very very) remote mountain region. Whoever was bringing the KG, L and R food/information, ect had to be incredibly loyal to begin with. Enter a pretty popular theory that Starfall is sending aid. You've already got Dayne as Rhaegar's BFF and obviously supports whatever is going on. Starfall/The Dayne's are Targaryen loyalists; when Ned shows up with Lyanna and Rhaegar's baby after the showdown at the ToJ, everyone at Starfall agrees to keep quiet because it's in their best interest and their own personal political agenda. What are they going to do? Go to Robert Baratheon and say, "hey, that prince we really loved and supported had another kid and oh btw it's Lyanna's?" The other people who would know are either dead (the 3KG and Ned) or hiding and will soon appear (Howland Reed who has an incredible amount of loyalty to Lyanna and Ned and would never risk Lyanna's baby; especially not after she so heroically defended his honor at Harrenhal)

2) You're assuming that GRRM cares about what readers have guessed/figured out. He doesn't. This is his his story and it began long before internet boards began creeping up and people going, "hey wait a minute." There is a reason why he stays off these sites. He puts in FALSE leads (there is nothing true about the fisherwoman tale. That is a huge red herring. Ned is NOT a dishonorable man when it comes to his marriage vows. He never betrayed Cat). The fact that readers have figured it out just means that we're reading critically. He's given us thousands of clues, but it was up to us to put the pieces together. He wants you to guess and piece it together but he's not going to tell us we're right until he's ready.

3) They weren't lying, they are rumors. There is a difference. Lying is the deliberate covering up of truth for the intent of pointing the one doing the questioning in a different direction. Rumors are stories that are being passed around and discussed with no evidence to back them up and without the intent to mislead.

4) I disagree completely about Cat, and not because I hate her or anything. Some secrets are so powerful and dangerous you simply can't tell them to the people you love most in this world. What if Robb was someday in massive danger but Cat could save her son by giving up Jon Snow, the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. She would do it in a heart beat. That's what Ned thinks about: what would Cat do if it was a child of her body vs Jon. He simply CANNOT tell her out of fear that someday it might be used against her and Jon would be in danger, and that's his promise to Lyanna (at least one of them): keep this baby safe.

[Ygrain]

1) It's important to understand the people in question who would have known and their status in the story at present. First, the ToJ is in a very (very very very) remote mountain region. Whoever was bringing the KG, L and R food/information, ect had to be incredibly loyal to begin with. Enter a pretty popular theory that Starfall is sending aid. You've already got Dayne has Rhaegar's BFF and obviously supports whatever is going on. Starfall/The Dayne's are Targaryen loyalists; when Ned shows up with Lyanna and Rhaegar's baby after the showdown at the ToJ, everyone at Starfall agrees to keep quiet because it's in their best interest and their own personal political agenda. What are they going to do? Go to Robert Baratheon and say, "hey, that prince we really love and supported had another kid and oh btw it's Lyanna's?" The other people who would know are either dead (the 3KG and Ned) or hiding and will soon appear (Howland Reed who has an incredible amount of loyalty to Lyanna and Ned and would never risk Lyanna's baby)

2) You're assuming that GRRM cares about what readers have guessed/figured out. He doesn't. This is his his story and it began long before internet boards began creeping up and people going, "hey wait a minute." There is a reason why he stays off these sites. He puts in FALSE leads (there is nothing true about the fisherwoman tale. That is a huge red herring. Ned is NOT a dishonorable man when it comes to his marriage vows. He never betrayed Cat). The fact that readers have figured it out just means that we're reading critically. He's given us thousands of clues, but it was up to us to put the pieces together.

3) They weren't lying, they are rumors. There is a difference. Lying is the deliberate covering up of truth for the intent of pointing the one doing the questioning in a different direction. Rumors are stories that are being passed around and discussed with no evidence to back them up and without the intent to mislead.

4) I disagree completely about Cat, and not because I hate her or anything. Some secrets are so powerful and dangerous you simply can't tell them to the people you love most in this world. What if Robb was someday in massive danger but Cat could save her son by giving up Jon Snow, the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. She would do it in a heart beat. That's what Ned thinks about: what would Cat do if it was a child of her body vs Jon. He simply CANNOT tell her out of fear that someday it might be used against her and Jon would be in danger, and that's his promise to Lyanna (at least one of them): keep this baby safe.

:agree: I can only add that telling Cat was not an option - they were complete strangers and only grew to love and trust each other. By that time, the secret was already established and revealing it to her wouldn't ease her fears but magnify them as harboring Jon was treason, putting all her family at risk. Telling her would solve nothing and open yet more cans of worms.

[Prince of the North]

4) I disagree completely about Cat, and not because I hate her or anything. Some secrets are so powerful and dangerous you simply can't tell them to the people you love most in this world. What if Robb was someday in massive danger but Cat could save her son by giving up Jon Snow, the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. She would do it in a heart beat. That's what Ned thinks about: what would Cat do if it was a child of her body vs Jon. He simply CANNOT tell her out of fear that someday it might be used against her and Jon would be in danger, and that's his promise to Lyanna (at least one of them): keep this baby safe.

:agree: I can only add that telling Cat was not an option - they were complete strangers and only grew to love and trust each other. By that time, the secret was already established and revealing it to her wouldn't ease her fears but magnify them as harboring Jon was treason, putting all her family at risk. Telling her would solve nothing and open yet more cans of worms.

Completely agreed with you both. Not telling Cat about Jon's heritage is actually protecting both her and Jon - an innocent child (and we know Ned really thinks highly of protecting them). If you're serious about being an honorable man and are coming to love your wife as you get to know her more I believe you think long and hard before you make her a party to treason (the penalty for which is death, of course). I believe this, along with the other things mentioned above, played a large role in Ned's never revealing Jon's secret to Cat.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

:agree: I can only add that telling Cat was not an option - they were complete strangers and only grew to love and trust each other. By that time, the secret was already established and revealing it to her wouldn't ease her fears but magnify them as harboring Jon was treason, putting all her family at risk. Telling her would solve nothing and open yet more cans of worms.

indeed. She didn't know Ned hardly at all. It was Brandon she was promised till he died suddenly and Ned filled in. I also doubt that Cat would understand. Kowing that Jon was really a Targaryen would have made everything he ever did extremely magnified in her eyes. The slightest glimpse of what might be cruelty, for example maybe in training with Robb he bests him once or lands a hardy blow, she would assume he was mad.

After I reread this I realize the fact that he was a bastard to her knowledge probably would have had the same effect, but I still feel knowing he was Targaryen would have made it worse.

[Black Crow]

First, the ToJ is in a very (very very very) remote mountain region.

Not so, it is on a ridge overlooking the mouth of the Prince's Pass; one of only two roads into Dorne.

[BearQueen87]

Not so, it is on a ridge overlooking the mouth of the Prince's Pass; one of only two roads into Dorne.

Ok, fine. I'm exaggerating. It is, however, still a remote tower in the mountains. It's not like it's sitting in a heavily populated area. The point I was making, in response to the quoted post, is that there aren't people coming and going on a daily basis who are going to notice 2 or 3KG, the Heir Apparent, and a Northern Lady hanging out.

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Beats Benjen + Lyanna = Jon. That was just all kinds of messed up.

Another Corn King fan? The story of Jon Barleycorn the man Barley who sacrificed himself to the goddess. Interesting little story about the harvest cycle. Though there is no Corn in that story it's Barley, Barleycorn is a unit of measurement for Barley. It's more like wheat and part of the grass family. Lammas which the story is about is the wheat harvest in August. In fact it was yesterday. If you know about the Roman deity Saturn you will find a very similar event as well, though Saturn was actually the Corn God. If your interested here is a little write up on Saturn aka Chronus aka Father Time. The harvest festival, the sower god, the raven/crow, the father of three famed gods, the symbolic use of the moon. It's a good read and may also be one of Martins many indirect influences, like Jon Barleycorn. Saturn was often honored in midwinter by the way. But also the celebration of Kronia which was held roughly at the very end of July or very beginning of August just like Lammas though Kronia came first well before 170 BC. You may find this link a very interesting read some of it is irrelevant but a lot appears to be relevant.

oops! (see below)

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Beats Benjen + Lyanna = Jon. That was just all kinds of messed up.

Another Corn King fan? The story of Jon Barleycorn the man Barley who sacrificed himself to the goddess. Interesting little story about the harvest cycle. Though there is no Corn in that story it's Barley, Barleycorn is a unit of measurement for Barley. It's more like wheat and part of the grass family. Lammas which the story is about is the wheat harvest in August. In fact it was yesterday. If you know about the Roman deity Saturn you will find a very similar event as well, though Saturn was actually the Corn God. If your interested here is a little write up on Saturn aka Chronus aka Father Time. The harvest festival, the sower god, the raven/crow, the father of three famed gods, the symbolic use of the moon. It's a good read and may also be one of Martins many indirect influences, like Jon Barleycorn. Saturn was often honored in midwinter by the way. But also the celebration of Kronia which was held roughly at the very end of July or very beginning of August just like Lammas though Kronia came first well before 170 BC. You may find this link a very interesting read some of it is irrelevant but a lot appears to be relevant.

http://www.novareinna.com/festive/oft.html

Just out of curiosity, how is the song of Jon Barleycorn (which is ultimately about whiskey, not shoe sizes or gods) relevant to ancient roman/greek deities or R+L=J or TPTWP? It's symbolic for the different aspects of a barley harvest.

BTW, the signature below is a quote from Mormont's raven. Corn King. . . :lmao:

[stateofdissipation]

1) It's important to understand the people in question who would have known and their status in the story at present. First, the ToJ is in a very (very very very) remote mountain region. Whoever was bringing the KG, L and R food/information, ect had to be incredibly loyal to begin with. Enter a pretty popular theory that Starfall is sending aid. You've already got Dayne as Rhaegar's BFF and obviously supports whatever is going on. Starfall/The Dayne's are Targaryen loyalists; when Ned shows up with Lyanna and Rhaegar's baby after the showdown at the ToJ, everyone at Starfall agrees to keep quiet because it's in their best interest and their own personal political agenda. What are they going to do? Go to Robert Baratheon and say, "hey, that prince we really loved and supported had another kid and oh btw it's Lyanna's?" The other people who would know are either dead (the 3KG and Ned) or hiding and will soon appear (Howland Reed who has an incredible amount of loyalty to Lyanna and Ned and would never risk Lyanna's baby; especially not after she so heroically defended his honor at Harrenhal)

2) You're assuming that GRRM cares about what readers have guessed/figured out. He doesn't. This is his his story and it began long before internet boards began creeping up and people going, "hey wait a minute." There is a reason why he stays off these sites. He puts in FALSE leads (there is nothing true about the fisherwoman tale. That is a huge red herring. Ned is NOT a dishonorable man when it comes to his marriage vows. He never betrayed Cat). The fact that readers have figured it out just means that we're reading critically. He's given us thousands of clues, but it was up to us to put the pieces together. He wants you to guess and piece it together but he's not going to tell us we're right until he's ready.

3) They weren't lying, they are rumors. There is a difference. Lying is the deliberate covering up of truth for the intent of pointing the one doing the questioning in a different direction. Rumors are stories that are being passed around and discussed with no evidence to back them up and without the intent to mislead.

4) I disagree completely about Cat, and not because I hate her or anything. Some secrets are so powerful and dangerous you simply can't tell them to the people you love most in this world. What if Robb was someday in massive danger but Cat could save her son by giving up Jon Snow, the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. She would do it in a heart beat. That's what Ned thinks about: what would Cat do if it was a child of her body vs Jon. He simply CANNOT tell her out of fear that someday it might be used against her and Jon would be in danger, and that's his promise to Lyanna (at least one of them): keep this baby safe.

1) It's important to understand the people in question who would have known and their status in the story at present. First, the ToJ is in a very (very very very) remote mountain region. Whoever was bringing the KG, L and R food/information, ect had to be incredibly loyal to begin with. Enter a pretty popular theory that Starfall is sending aid.

Starfall is 250 miles from the ToJ. That isn't exactly the place to go for milk and eggs. Vulture's Roost and Kingsgrave are each about a day away (under 50 miles)

It would be pretty difficult to have regular supply runs over 250 miles(direct line which passes over High Hermitage) without attracting attention. The resupply from Starfall idea is a lousy one at best and a feeble attempt to explain why Wylla was Jon's wetnurse,

You've already got Dayne as Rhaegar's BFF and obviously supports whatever is going on. Starfall/The Dayne's are Targaryen loyalists; when Ned shows up with Lyanna and Rhaegar's baby after the showdown at the ToJ, everyone at Starfall agrees to keep quiet because it's in their best interest and their own personal political agenda.

I recall an argument about Benjen stating that every scullery maid would be gossiping. The truth is that the more people that knew something the less likely it was to remain a secret. The prince's son would make for some pretty good gossip. Without killing people, Starfall's support means there is no secret.

What are they going to do? Go to Robert Baratheon and say, "hey, that prince we really loved and supported had another kid and oh btw it's Lyanna's?"

When Robert took the throne, he ended Targaryen succession. Unless Ned lied when he said, "I thought you were a better man Robert. I thought we had made a better king." the issue of what Robert would do is deader than fried chicken.

The other people who would know are either dead (the 3KG and Ned) or hiding and will soon appear (Howland Reed who has an incredible amount of loyalty to Lyanna and Ned and would never risk Lyanna's baby; especially not after she so heroically defended his honor at Harrenhal)

Except for the grocery boy, the news boy, the midwife, the maester, the wet nurse, stable boy, cook, maid, and other persons necessary for making life in the ToJ comfortable. (Included the people from Starfall and excluded everybody on the path between the ToJ and Statfall)

I do like this version better... everybody that knows anything is dead or in hiding.

2) You're assuming that GRRM cares about what readers have guessed/figured out. He doesn't. This is his his story and it began long before internet boards began creeping up and people going, "hey wait a minute." There is a reason why he stays off these sites.

It is more of an assumption that GRRM is not stupid enough to copy Dicken's version of the dead-horse trope of the hidden prince.

He puts in FALSE leads (there is nothing true about the fisherwoman tale. That is a huge red herring. Ned is NOT a dishonorable man when it comes to his marriage vows. He never betrayed Cat).

Other than when he admits he did. "if the gods hated bastards so much why did they give men such urges"

The fact that readers have figured it out just means that we're reading critically. He's given us thousands of clues, but it was up to us to put the pieces together. He wants you to guess and piece it together but he's not going to tell us we're right until he's ready.

GRRM has given us clues about Rhaegar and Lyanna.... He has also given us clues about Jon...

There is quite a bit missing... Let us see, Rob's will made Jon "King of the North"... Patchface gave out the red wedding. Mormont's raven gave the aftermath.

It is tempting to make a connection from R and L to J... If we see Jon as king of the north, the thousands of clues drop down to a couple of pages. (even with the king part left in you only had 3 pages out of over 5000)

3) They weren't lying, they are rumors. There is a difference. Lying is the deliberate covering up of truth for the intent of pointing the one doing the questioning in a different direction. Rumors are stories that are being passed around and discussed with no evidence to back them up and without the intent to mislead.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie

A "liar" needs to be attempting to mislead,

A statement is a lie if it is false regardless of intent.

As a measure of character unknowingly passing off a false statement does not necessarily make a person a liar. They are lying, even if they do not know it.

4) I disagree completely about Cat, and not because I hate her or anything. Some secrets are so powerful and dangerous you simply can't tell them to the people you love most in this world. What if Robb was someday in massive danger but Cat could save her son by giving up Jon Snow, the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. She would do it in a heart beat.

Are we suggesting that Ned planned to leave Cat in charge one day and decided that would be in a time of danger so she would be forced to decide between Robb and Jon?

In aCoK Jamie brings up that Ned loved and trusted Robert and not Cat. ---If Aerys' message to Jon Arryn calling for Ned's and Robert's heads never happened... that would be a pretty big secret.

That's what Ned thinks about: what would Cat do if it was a child of her body vs Jon. He simply CANNOT tell her out of fear that someday it might be used against her and Jon would be in danger, and that's his promise to Lyanna (at least one of them): keep this baby safe.

Again we have Ned being an honorable liar(If Robert was a threat during the rebellion, Ned was a liar as his hand). Tthere was no "danger" and Ned was not a prophet. Lyanna was not a deranged woman fretting about some monster ex-betrothed. (She would not only have to be completely up on current events, she would also have had to mistaken Robert for the Lannisters and known about his reaction to her death.)

[BearQueen87]

I'm going to regret this...

1) It's important to understand the people in question who would have known and their status in the story at present. First, the ToJ is in a very (very very very) remote mountain region. Whoever was bringing the KG, L and R food/information, ect had to be incredibly loyal to begin with. Enter a pretty popular theory that Starfall is sending aid.

Starfall is 250 miles from the ToJ. That isn't exactly the place to go for milk and eggs. Vulture's Roost and Kingsgrave are each about a day away (under 50 miles)

It would be pretty difficult to have regular supply runs over 250 miles(direct line which passes over High Hermitage) without attracting attention. The resupply from Starfall idea is a lousy one at best and a feeble attempt to explain why Wylla was Jon's wetnurse,

And how loyal are those two places? Are they as loyal as Starfall? Do they have a connection to any of the KG sitting at the ToJ with Rhaegar and Lyanna? They aren't bringing them supper every night; they're bringing them enough supplies to maintain living for longer stretches of time. When you're in hiding, it's a good idea to only involve those necessary to survival. So why involve those other two hold fasts and THEN go to Starfall. Now you've got THREE families who could tell the secret. Keep it simple.

I recall an argument about Benjen stating that every scullery maid would be gossiping. The truth is that the more people that knew something the less likely it was to remain a secret. The prince's son would make for some pretty good gossip. Without killing people, Starfall's support means there is no secret.

Pretty much what I just said in my response to your first point. Don't involve a great number of people. Keeping it located to one extremely loyal family is the safest route.

When Robert took the throne, he ended Targaryen succession. Unless Ned lied when he said, "I thought you were a better man Robert. I thought we had made a better king." the issue of what Robert would do is deader than fried chicken.

Bull. Tell that to Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen whom Robert wanted to kill and sent men to do the job.

Other than when he admits he did. "if the gods hated bastards so much why did they give men such urges"

Well since Jon Snow isn't a bastard we don't have to worry about that, now do we.

Are we suggesting that Ned planned to leave Cat in charge one day and decided that would be in a time of danger so she would be forced to decide between Robb and Jon?

In aCoK Jamie brings up that Ned loved and trusted Robert and not Cat. ---If Aerys' message to Jon Arryn calling for Ned's and Robert's heads never happened... that would be a pretty big secret.

She's the lady of Winterfell, second only to him. And he can't predict anything: that is RATHER THE POINT. He doesn't know what will happen 15 years down the road and his concern is keeping Jon safe.

[WhiteOwl18]

She's the lady of Winterfell, second only to him. And he can't predict anything: that is RATHER THE POINT. He doesn't know what will happen 15 years down the road and his concern is keeping Jon safe.

Precisely. And I seem to remember a situation when the Baratheons/Lannisters had both Sansa and Arya (or so Cat thought) in their power. I'm sure that if Cat had known the truth she would have given Jon in exchange for her daughters. And the Lannisters would have loved to put their hands on the Targaryen heir. As Ned's bastard, he has no value to them whatsoever.

[Ser Creighton]

Just out of curiosity, how is the song of Jon Barleycorn (which is ultimately about whiskey, not shoe sizes or gods) relevant to ancient roman/greek deities or R+L=J or TPTWP? It's symbolic for the different aspects of a barley harvest.

BTW, the signature below is a quote from Mormont's raven. Corn King. . . :lmao:

Rome had invaded Europe, and the song is actually about the harvest festival of Lammas. Lots of traditions and mythology passes down this way. Many religions and myths are related by contact with other cultures.

http://thepaganandthepen.wordpress.com/2010/07/31/lammas-corn-king/

Kronia is the festival of corn which also celebrates the harvest. Look at the cyclical nature of the story Chronus aka Saturn.

Now if you look at Father Time, which is the story of the life cycle You will note the heavy moon symbolism, the crow, the winter festival but also a summer festival. The three children who all resist time. Air, water and death.

Yes I know it's a quote from the Raven, there is an entire theory about Barleycorn on the thread. Jon Barleycorn is the name of one of the members of the Watch. Corn king is a reference to both Lammas and Kronia.

This would just take to long to explain, but feel free to look of the theory of the board. Someone usually has a ling to it.

[Alia of the knife]

Viva Las Volantis,

Bright light city gonna set my soul

Gonna set my soul on fire

Got a whole lot of money that's ready to burn,

So get those stakes up higher

There's a thousand pretty women waitin' out there

And they're all livin' dragon may care

And I'm just the dragon with love to spare

Viva Las Volantis, Viva Las Volantis

Elvis and Rhaegar equal the same. People still argue both are alive, both are royalty, both famed singers and neither has ever been seen with the other. It's confirmed, I think this needs to be pinned, I mean come on just look at those Lyrics, Elvis was clearly a secret Targ at the very least.

You know it!

[Alia of the knife]

Need further proof?

I feel my temperature rising

Help me, I'm flaming

I must be a hundred and nine

Burning, burning, burning

And nothing can cool me

I just might turn into smoke

But I feel fine

[...]

I'm just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

QED

;)

Under all that rhinestone beat the heart of a dragon. :)

[Alia of the knife]

Where was Gerold Dayne at that time? He would have been around Viserys age.

It seems to me that he is the most dangerous man in Dorne either because of:

~ What he is: A psycho

~ Who he is: Someone that makes the Martells uncomfortable.

~ What he knows.

And again, all the above could apply because he managed to put even the RV on edge, to the point Daemon Sand says Oberyn should have killed him.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Where was Gerold Dayne at that time? He would have been around Viserys age.

It seems to me that he is the most dangerous man in Dorne either because of:

~ What he is: A psycho

~ Who he is: Someone that makes the Martells uncomfortable.

~ What he knows.

And again, all the above could apply because he managed to put even the RV on edge, to the point Daemon Sand says Oberyn should have killed him.

Gerold Dayne was between the age of 9 and 13 at the end of the Rebellion. So most likely, if High Hermitage was involved (which I doubt), Gerold himself was not. With a secret this big, you tell as few people as possible, and you don't tell children, since children might tell the secret to others more quickly.

[stateofdissipation]

I'm going to regret this...

And how loyal are those two places? Are they as loyal as Starfall? Do they have a connection to any of the KG sitting at the ToJ with Rhaegar and Lyanna? They aren't bringing them supper every night; they're bringing them enough supplies to maintain living for longer stretches of time. When you're in hiding, it's a good idea to only involve those necessary to survival. So why involve those other two hold fasts and THEN go to Starfall. Now you've got THREE families who could tell the secret. Keep it simple.

Pretty much what I just said in my response to your first point. Don't involve a great number of people. Keeping it located to one extremely loyal family is the safest route.

Bull. Tell that to Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen whom Robert wanted to kill and sent men to do the job.

Well since Jon Snow isn't a bastard we don't have to worry about that, now do we.

She's the lady of Winterfell, second only to him. And he can't predict anything: that is RATHER THE POINT. He doesn't know what will happen 15 years down the road and his concern is keeping Jon safe.

And how loyal are those two places?

You rely on them being loyal enough to allow passage through their lands and not to report the comings and goings of kingsguard 600 miles from the king.

Are they as loyal as Starfall?

That was answered in how loyal... Starfall's loyalty can only happen if there is safe passage through the lands.

Do they have a connection to any of the KG sitting at the ToJ with Rhaegar and Lyanna?

Not that i am aware. They also have no reason to allow them passage or to not sell them out to Robert.

They aren't bringing them supper every night; they're bringing them enough supplies to maintain living for longer stretches of time. When you're in hiding, it's a good idea to only involve those necessary to survival.

It is a five day trip with a horse. With a wagon it is a week or more. 2 weeks on the road with a wagon of supplies large enough to feed five people for a few months.

Let us see who would be involved

Steward: has to see to the provisioning and purchase of supplies.

Master of horse: has to prepare the wagon and the horses (needs to know how long the trip is and the type of terrain)

The wagoneer: has to know the route and delivery location.

Now this does not include their spouses, cooks, stable boys, house boys, scullery maids, and other servants necessary to perform that function include 1 assistant and or spouse for each of the listed required people.

We now have 6 more people in the circle of secrecy. The larger the supply train the larger the number of people in the circle. If you used 3 wagons to stock up for the year... it is another 4 people. If you use one wagon and make more trips you increase the chances of running in to patrols and travellers.

---Or you could just get supplies locally.

So why involve those other two hold fasts and THEN go to Starfall. Now you've got THREE families who could tell the secret. Keep it simple.

The hold fasts are closer and more likely to get word about people living in the tower. Killing anybody that got close enough to see the smoke from the cooking fires might seem simple. It would be trickier than you might imagine. You also have the people coming and going on a two week round trip to Starfall you would have to kill them too.

Simple is to get your supplies locally. It may raise some questions. However, those are easier to deal with than the mystery people up in the haunted tower surrounded by corpses.

Pretty much what I just said in my response to your first point. Don't involve a great number of people. Keeping it located to one extremely loyal family is the safest route.

Steward.Master of horse The wagoneer: has to know the route and delivery location spouses, cooks, stable boys, house boys, scullery maids, and other servants necessary to perform that function... are those loyal family or loyal servants?

Bull. Tell that to Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen whom Robert wanted to kill and sent men to do the job.

13 years later... so Ned is liar and able to see the future.

Well since Jon Snow isn't a bastard we don't have to worry about that, now do we.

Snow...

She's the lady of Winterfell, second only to him. And he can't predict anything: that is RATHER THE POINT. He doesn't know what will happen 15 years down the road and his concern is keeping Jon safe.

In terms of competence the Lady of Winterfell is second to a potted plant. That is beside the point. List of things that Cat does well:.. (she messed up dying and that is an accomplishment)

If he does not know the future, how is he keeping Jon safe?...I am pretty sure that is called raising a child. (Unless you are Cat)

On second thought not telling Cat was keeping Jon safe... from Cat.. Had she accepted him he would be dead with Robb,

[BearQueen87]

Gerold Dayne was between the age of 9 and 13 at the end of the Rebellion. So most likely, if High Hermitage was involved (which I doubt), Gerold himself was not. With a secret this big, you tell as few people as possible, and you don't tell children, since children might tell the secret to others more quickly.

Is there any chance Darkstar was at Starfall at the time? Visiting? Being a cupbearer? Squiring?

[BearQueen87]

I knew I'd regret this...

I'm only going to respond to one point; I don't feel like going 10 rounds

Bull. Tell that to Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen whom Robert wanted to kill and sent men to do the job.

13 years later... so Ned is liar and able to see the future.

Rhaenys and Aegon. Robert calls them "dragonspawn" and isn't even the slightest bit upset by their deaths. Ned knows this as he goes off first to Storm's End and then the Tower of Joy. He knows that Robert would kill any child of Rhaegar's.