Bakker XXVIII: A Hiding Place Soon to be Discovered

[Diziet]

Rereading that scene I'm impressed by how Moë grabbed that Skin-spy and killed him even after getting stabbed and supposedly needing Cnaiür's strength. With the inhuman speed and strength of the Skin-spies it makes me wonder how he got stabbed in the first place.

eta: It also seems weird for Kellhus to kill him with a knife.

The eyeless face, once perfectly obdurate and inscrutable, suddenly twitched in the ghost of a grimace. Kellhus pulled his knife from his father’s chest, retreated several steps.

Could this ghost of a grimace meant to be taken literally - meaning that Moe was using the same Cant he used in front of Ikurei Xerius in TDTCB?

[Wise Fool]

Why would he? Seems like he was just grimacing, Dunyain-style.

[Diziet]

To fake his death?

[sologdin]

nice find, SBH. ghosts and other incorporealities in RSB should be read through the lens of derrida's spectres of marx, which builds a critique of 'hauntology.'

[Wise Fool]

To fake his death?

But why would he use a Cant to pretend to barely grimace, when he could just pretend to barely grimace?

[Diziet]

It's not that he needed the cant to pretend that he grimaced, he was using it to pretend that he, Moenghus, was there in the first place, as opposed to whoever it was that was really there. Kellhus only noticed the ghost at that moment because he got close enough to stab him.

[Wise Fool]

Oh, I see what you're saying.

But then whoever it was in his place also had to be a sorceror (because chorae death) who was physically quick and strong enough to defeat two skin-spies.

And that cant doesn't seem like it'd be all that convincing - Xerius et al could see beneath it, it would show up as one face transposed over another, but still translucent or whatever. Seems odd that neither Kellhus nor Cnaiur would notice anything out of the ordinary, especially since Cnaiur was close enough to kiss.

[sologdin]

so, the regular cant is just a hologram, whereas the metagnostic cant associated therewith creates a simulacrum that is experienced as a three-dimensional solid, &c.?

[Larry of the Lawn]

I always thought "chorae" was a euphemism for "balls", thus the rolling it along is cheek. And then big moe teleports away, right?

[sologdin]

salty balls, chocolate salty balls.

[Wise Fool]

so, the regular cant is just a hologram, whereas the metagnostic cant associated therewith creates a simulacrum that is experienced as a three-dimensional solid, &c.?

but where would Moe have learned metagnostic sorcery? Or maybe you mean metacishaurim, where "meta" is a prefix indicating that a Dunyain does it and is therefore much better at it. Metagnostic, metacishaurim, metasexy.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Same way they teleported to assassinate the pre-Eli grandmasterflash.

[sologdin]

yes yes! metacish, not metagnostic. (ETA--unless old moe is really seswatha)

same way they teleported

true nuff--they already had their metacishy cant of transposition.

[Callan S.]

This is probably a stupid question, but in the scene where Cnaiur kills Moenghus with the Chorae... was that on purpose? It seems that it was accident because he was started screaming afterwards, but he did take it out and roll it on Moe's cheek, didn't he?

Because he's going mad in a schism between his intellect and his passion - his passion wails at losing Moe again, even as it was he who killed him. Because he is splitting in twain, the right hand of passion not knowing what the left hand of intellect is doing. Or maybe something else other than intellect, even (ala a nonman erratic - just pure becoming). Regardless, it's a terrible paternalism, as whatever it is knows Moe is poison and must die even as the child Cnauir wails uncomprehending.

Check the 'time, light and gravity' for a similar murder (IMO, anyway)

[Anatúrinbor]

Perhaps they also saw the Womb-Plague as a favor to future Nonmen children.

Perhaps this is a stretch, but did anyone else note the wording in this passage?

There had been a time when hed walked in glory and horror. Spear-Bearer to mighty Sil, the great King After-the-Fall. He had dared the wrath of Cujara Cinmoi on the plains of Pir Pahal. He had ridden the back of Wutteät, Father of Dragons. He had wrestled Ciögli the Mountainthrown him from his feet! Sarpanur, the Nonmen of Ishriol had called him at first, after the keystone that fixed their crude subterranean arches. And then, following the Womb-Plague, Sin-Pharion, the Angel of Deceit. ..... Horde-General to dread Mog-Pharau, Breaker of Worlds. He had burned the Great Library of Sauglish. He had stormed the heights of Holy Trysë. He had made fires of their cities, beacons that shone through the very void. He had extinguished nationsbled whole peoples white! Aurang, the Norsirai of Kûniüri had called him the Warlord. Perhaps the most far-seeing of his many names.

Notice how he is explicitly taking credit or bragging about all the atrocities mentioned, except the Womb-Plague where he only says that "following the Womb-Plague," he was given a name that's to his liking. Of all the Inchoroi, the Nonmen gave the name Angel of Deceit to Aurang, which implies that they primarily blamed him for organizing it. And yet, the wording is "And then, following the Womb-Plague," and not "And then, the Womb-Plague." He explicitly mentions bleeding whole peoples white at the end, you'd think that he'd would spare a line or two to how he exterminated all the Cûnoroi women, but no.

I'm sure most will disagree with this interpretation, but to me it seems that either to the Inchoroi the Womb-Plague is not something to brag about or that it was, as some have speculated in the past, an accident.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I disagree, i think the "following" is just there to contrast when the nonmen began demonizing rather than celebrating him. But an interesting interpretation none the less.

[Diziet]

so, the regular cant is just a hologram, whereas the metagnostic cant associated therewith creates a simulacrum that is experienced as a three-dimensional solid, &c.?

It would seem that that's the logical extension...

Also, shouldn't be the metapsûkhe?

[sologdin]

ruiner--

womb-plague is seswatha's fault, or moe,'s then, a dunyain, mandate, or mandunyain plot!

SBH--

metapsukhic is the term that i have failed to find in three posts now. thanks!

[Anatúrinbor]

womb-plague is seswatha's fault, or moe,'s then, a dunyain, mandate, or mandunyain plot!

I was thinking it was something metaphysical that prevents women from becoming immortal in Earwa. But Seswatha seems to be given credit for everything lately so he will do I guess.

Anyway, according to this website, the definition of the word metagnostic[ism] is:

the doctrine that knowledge of the Absolute is within human reach, but through a higher religious consciousness rather than by logical processes. metagnostic, adj.

So there is a relation between performing the Metagnosis and grasping the Absolute? Is this something discussed in the series that I missed?

[Diziet]

So Kellhus, Serwa, and Saccarees are all candidates for God of Gods? But the fact that metagnosis means something specific and not just higher version of the Gnosis (as I had thought previously) makes me doubt that there is such a thing as metapsukhe. :dunno: