Bakker XXVIII: A Hiding Place Soon to be Discovered

[Calibandar]

Yeah well, I think we can pretty much forget about any more sample chapters. There's a point where you can say that if it hasn't come now, it's not going to happen anymore.

Personally I could do without sample chapters and instead get a firm release date for the book. At last.

[sologdin]

but if y'all get volume six, all of this blind-book-theorizing will wither away. what then for internet serial fantasy fandom? these discussions revolve around a crucial absence of information, and when that information becomes present to consciousness, the discussions will accordingly be ruined.

[Diziet]

There is a third series to theorize about.

[Anatúrinbor]

There is a third series to theorize about.

And we at least don't have to worry about time running out on that one. If you catch my drift.

But the impression I have is that TUC will answer / reveal most of the mysteries in the series. The third series might just be a straight up adventure story where Kellhus seeks out Neil Cas­sidy while his Great Ordeal takes on world government at the battle of Ontario.

[Kalbear]

Huh. I didn't get that at all. I got from the various snippets that this was going to show us what the REAL mystery was, and would be deeply unsatisfying if the series ended here. The plot threads are resolved, but we would be left with more questions.

[Rhom]

Incontrovertible proof that the Inchoroi are Kryptonians.

:lol:

[Diziet]

Honestly, I would rather not have a "real" mystery pop up out of nowhere and instead have answers for some of the questions that were already raised. There is a chance that this could happen and it would be something awesome or mindblowing, but knowing Bakker's history with "plot twists" (from Neuropath and DotD) makes me very wary of any such thing.

[Diziet]

Are there any popular theories as to what this "real" mystery could be?

[unJon]

I don't think Kal is correct. Bakker has described TUC (unfortunately for his internet persona) as the g-string finally coming off. After that it's hard to imagine there's anything mysterious left.

[sologdin]

dunno. when i see the doffing of the final undergarment, the question becomes is it all for show, or do I take mine off too?

[SilentRoamer]

When the G String comes off, you only see the Outside, the Inside is still a mystery, until you go Inward.

[Lord Patrek]

Yeah well, I think we can pretty much forget about any more sample chapters. There's a point where you can say that if it hasn't come now, it's not going to happen anymore.

Personally I could do without sample chapters and instead get a firm release date for the book. At last.

Last I heard from Scott, the second sample was still a go. But he had just turned in the manuscript to his editors on both sides of the pond and he wanted to wait till the whole thing was edited before providing a new extract.

So I'm pretty sure it will happen. As to when, however, your guess is as good as mine. . .

Patrick

[Rhom]

When the G String comes off, you only see the Outside, the Inside is still a mystery, until you go Inward.

:slowclap:

[Callan S.]

Are there any popular theories as to what this "real" mystery could be?

Mine (not popular!) is that it's rather like 'I have no mouth and I must scream'. An AI, intelligent to the point of alien, wiped out humanity. It's then, for 'an AI did it!' reasons animated a world across its surface - and simulacrums of humans. All the characters aren't humans at all, just the memory of them animated across the surface of a planet sized computer (ooh, just though - maybe a hitchhikers reference there!), adding strong gravitas to the 'could no more sin against dirt' declaration they were torturing a sranc. It's gunna hop genres from fantasy to hard sci fi. And it wont even feel like it did - and it'll seem entirely like it did. And that disjunct is an intentional part of the writing. In possibly one of the most insanely literaturesque moments of the millenia. If literarturesque is a word, which is probably isn't but should be.

[Sci-2]

"Whether stemming from the entheogenic properties of physical elixirs, or developing independently, the desire to encounter the divine directly through inner experience (gnōsis, jnāna) was soon cultivated via internal practices of a meditative or metaphysiological character. Here the elixir began to be generated within the vessels of the human body in order to transform it into an alchemical body of glory. Thus, the two basic traditions—external and internal alchemy; neidan and waidan, laboratory and oratory—can, in the final analysis, be regarded as complimentary approaches to the same end: the attainment of perfection through liberation from conditioned existence."

--Circumambulating the Alchemical Mysterium

[Anatúrinbor]

Are there any popular theories as to what this "real" mystery could be?

I'd rather not have a "real" mystery pop out either, but if we're going for wanking plot twists, have you seen the theory that Cû'jara-Cinmoi had made a deal with the Inchoroi allowing them to administer the Womb-Plague in exchange for saving his soul through immortality? Because I have a theory that is based on it. (So it's already on shaky ground :P ) But assuming that the Cû'jara = Womb-Plague is true. And summing up because laying down all the "evidence" would take hours...

Basically, the whole thing - the Second Apocalypse - is a war on men. Key to this theory is the fact that Seswatha had the only copy of the Isûphiryas and probably inserted some BS in there, most notably, this suspicious line: "According to the Isûphiryas, the first victim of the Womb-Plague was Hanalinqû, Cû'jara-Cinmoi's legendary wife." That line is suspicious for a few reasons: 1. Bakker specifically reminds us that this is only "according to the Isûphiryas," 2. because if you were Cû'jara-Cinmoi, and you knew about the Inchoroi's impending Womb-Plague, would you let them kill your own wife? Most likely not. You would warn her, just as he did. So she flees plotting to one day avenge her murdered sisters. (reason 3 is the word "legendary," more on that later.)

If you doubt that the whole thing is a war of genders consider this post on the first page:

the trick in asimov is that the other end of the galaxy,

relative to the circumference, is the center, as opposed to any particular point and its antipode 180 degrees away along that circumference. as i recall it, terminus was out along the periphery.

in the RSB the end of the world as a location might indulge in a similar semantic ambiguity and be topoi or access point to the outside.

Bakker is indulging in similar semantic ambiguity. There is a theme in the series that men are the center, and women are the circumference,

"And she could feel it: he the centre of her, and she the circumference of him"

So the end of the world (which in the series is something that must be prevented) is men in relation to women. Bakker actually lays this down in the very first few pages of the series, "So long as men live there are crimes."

At some point Hanalinqû came into contact with Seswatha, and instructed him to create the Dûnyain, the Mandate, and to build the tower of Attrempus (see first page of thread) above where she's hiding. All part of TTT, which is her plan to wipe out all the men of the world. Seswatha, being the asshole that he is, inserted that line in the Isûphiryas, and added the word "legendary" to mean that Cû'jara-Cinmoi's legendary wife is dead, the real one is still alive though.

A Non-woman serves as a stand-in for the Benne Gesserit, who have "the other memories that are made available to the Bene Gesserit providing a wealth of knowledge that reaches far back into Humanity's past, to the days when Humans were bound to Earth."

That's important because only someone like that could create TTT, which according to Moënghus, is a formula that will "rewrite the very course of history". Moënghus, who didn't even know how to choose between the branches of magic could not have done it. A mere human like Seswatha could not have done it either. It had to be someone with the equivalent of the other memories who spent thousands of years wanking on it - Hanalinqû.

A war on men would be Bakker's way of subverting the war on women that is happening in the real world. And would explain his insistence that people should wait till the end of the series before calling him a misogynist.

[Happy Ent]

Bravo.

[sologdin]

Like.

[Bolivar]

Doesn't he lay his wife's corpse in front of his army before the final confrontation with the Inchoroi? Kinda hope this series doesn't get any further gendered.

As far as mysteries go, I'm certain we'll still have our fair share. Madness wrote on The Second Apocalypse forums after reading the manuscript for TUC that it raises as many questions as it answers.

[Diziet]

Doesn't he lay his wife's corpse in front of his army before the final confrontation with the Inchoroi? Kinda hope this series doesn't get any further gendered.

Well, that's also according to the Isuphiryas. But something like this wouldn't bother me at all. It might be even great if Bakker pulls it off the right way.

Anyway, very nice theory, whether true or not.

As far as mysteries go, I'm certain we'll still have our fair share. Madness wrote on The Second Apocalypse forums after reading the manuscript for TUC that it raises as many questions as it answers.

I saw that as well, but I thought the kind of questions it will raise are not intentional mysteries like the ones raised in first two trilogies, but more like the answers Bakker will provide will make little sense, leaving the reader to repeatedly ask "what the hell? Where did that come from?? And who the fuck is Hanalinqu???" :)

And besides, Bakker said outright that TUC will answer most of the questions raised already, and that if he dies it will be a satisfying ending to the series. That last part might not be true, but the idea is that this is where all mysteries will be brought to light but not answered seemed a bit far-fetched.