Bakker XXVIII: A Hiding Place Soon to be Discovered

[SilentRoamer]

One of the things I struggle with when it comes to these books is to what extent a lot of the ambiguous scenes are deliberately so or not, and that scene is one of the best examples.

But there are several others that jump to mind.

-The final scene with Moe and Nayu.

-All of the mentions about Akka and Mimara and "their" child

-Mimara's skin spy

-The scene with Psatma and the WLW

-Any scene involving the WLW

There seem to be leader-in-the-clubhourse theories on what is going on with all of these, but it also seems unclear enough as to leave a lot of doubt, and I'm not sure to what extent that is deliberate or not on the part of the author.

Layers of revelation withstanding I would expect ambiguity as a major factor in authorial intent.

[Diziet]

I know what SBH meant just posting the quote for clarity.

I always read it that the heart burned as he brandished it, otherwise I would expect his white linen to burn as well, trivial to look at the mundane among the miracles I know.

But his hand didn't burn! On second thoughts, I don't think it's really that important.

[Anatúrinbor]

For ambiguous scenes add the interrogation/rape of Esmenet by whatever it was that was there. Also, Kellhus's conversations with Cnaiur and Achamian on the circumfix.

[Callan S.]

Huh? They spent the last few millennia or so almost wiping out one planet after the other to avoid damnation

Almost, yup.

And killing half a species makes them not as genocidally evil as one might think?

Killing half is the same as killing all?

but only if they weren't stupid enough as to kill the women knowing that the men will try to avenge them?

Well maybe it was just supposed to neuter the nonmen women? But killed them instead? Incompetence or horrific mysogyny, your call.

Perhaps we just assume they wanted to kill the women?

I'll pay that if it was their plan to kill half, yeah, that's going to get some severe retribution. Perhaps they thought they just wanted to kill the females and thought they could tough out the ramifications?

Could be a badly failed neutering effort or it could be an over estimate of toughing out ability.

And there is the fact that as far as we know they did want to kill them all.

Where? They just need to sever the god connection (heck, since they have souls, they can't kill everything with a soul - this only works if they just need to get soul population under a certain number)

We don't have enough info on the matter so I'll change the subject. In the Circumfix scene, did Kellhus burn the heart or was it already burning inside Serwe before he pulled it out? The wording seems to imply the latter.

Given all the talk on it, I'm kind of getting cross now that scenes that would have given more info on it (talks with Cnaiur) were edited out.

There's 'creative void' and then there's just plain absence. Seems to mostly be the latter.

[lokisnow]

They need to close the world to the outside. A womb is a window to the outside. A gate through which a soul enters the world. The inchoroi were just shutting all the windows

[Diziet]

Almost, yup.

Killing half is the same as killing all?

Yes? When it comes to determining whether they are genocidal or not.

Where? They just need to sever the god connection (heck, since they have souls, they can't kill everything with a soul - this only works if they just need to get soul population under a certain number)

To be here again after millennia, at the place where it had almost happened, where Men and Nonmen had almost flickered out forever.

The issue is not why they wanted to kill the women, there's plenty of obvious reasons for them to do that. But why did they not kill the men, and why did they give them immortality?

If they killed the women on purpose then they should have been able to kill the men as well. But even assuming that they were only capable of killing the women but not the men for some reason (despite the fact that it's very far-fetched and convenient to the point of silliness,) why did they give the men immortality? If they only killed the women and left the men as they were their race would have died out in a generation and the Inchoroi would have won. Saying that they wanted them to become erratic on purpose so that they can become easier to kill in a thousand years is not very convincing when they could've killed them right there or left them to die off without the immortality.

Also, did Moe also communicate with Kellhus on the Circumfix?

Yeah, I think Moe was behind it all.

Kellhus himself does not know what the source of his power is. "something inexplicable moved him." So it seems to not be something he's doing.

He rolled from Serwë, braced his arms against his knees, then waving his frantic disciples away, stood impossibly erect.

The word "impossibly" is used with magic usually. For instance, "The impossible words were there, poised in Achamian’s thought, words that could blind eyes and blister flesh."

Could be a hint at Moënghus puppeteering.

[Happy Ent]

But even assuming that they were only capable of killing the women but not the men for some reason (despite the fact that it's very far-fetched and convenient to the point of silliness,) why did they give the men immortality?

I don’t understand who it’s “convenient” for? (The inchies? The Nonmen? The author? The plot?) Please explain.

We don’t know why they gave the men immortality. But to me it’s clear that the sexes are essentially different when it comes to the passage of souls from the Outside to the Inside and back. The male body is endowed with a soul, which leaves when the bodies is damaged. That’s it. The female body, on the other hand, is a soul-trapping device. We don’t understand the metaphysics of Bakker’s world, but the mechanics of men and women with respect to movement-of-souls must be completely different. Wombs are soul-trapping devices.

“Immortality technology”, plausibly, does something with souls. Maybe it just prevents the (mundane) body from deteriorating, but the whole concept of “self” in Bakkerworld is identified with the soul, so the “immortality technology” must handle this in some way. It seems plausible to me that this technology has completely different effects on men and women, because the sexes must be wired differently in exactly the relevant parts. Whatever technology “blocks the soul’s passage from the Nonmale body” might simultaneously crash the firmware in all Nonfemale’s wombs. The womb crashes, rots, and destroys its host.

Both outcomes could easily be (planned and unplanned, respectively) side-effects of the real Inchoroi motivation: to shut off the Outside by preventing souls to get regularly updated with “God-stuff” and pollute the Inside with it. (Or however the metaphysics work, and whatever it actually is the Inchies need to do,…)

[Maithanet]

One of the things I struggle with when it comes to these books is to what extent a lot of the ambiguous scenes are deliberately so or not, and that scene is one of the best examples.

But there are several others that jump to mind.

There seem to be leader-in-the-clubhourse theories on what is going on with all of these, but it also seems unclear enough as to leave a lot of doubt, and I'm not sure to what extent that is deliberate or not on the part of the author.

You make a list of ambiguous scenes and you don't have the maybe-death of Cnauir on it? There the ambiguity was obviously intentional, but in adds to the overall frustration that so many of the pivotal scenes of the series are deliberately left unclear. And to me, there is no question that all the things you mentioned were intentional - Bakker is quite capable of writing scenes clearly, he just prefers to be more ambiguous.