Did you really have to sleep with my cousin?

[corbon]

hahahahahaha!

Well he started a war because of it, I don't think you could get a more extreme reaction than that.

He didn't start any war, Jon Arryn did.

And Lyanna wasn't even mentioned in the lead up to it, as far as we know.

[A Bastard Snow]

He didn't start any war, Jon Arryn did.

And Lyanna wasn't even mentioned in the lead up to it, as far as we know.

Brandon went to KL demanding Rhaegar to fight him after he heard Rhaegar took his sister Aerys then killed Brandon and Rick and then demanded the heads of Ned/Robert and Arryn refused.

In Summary Rhaegar started this war because he thought taking a 14 year old girl without telling anyone would turn out to be a good idea.And people think he would have made a great king :dunno:

[Kyoshi]

Not what I expected when I opened this thread, not what I was expecting at all.

[Ser Eric]

Dear Mr. Martin,

If you ever get around to writing an RR prequel, please, please, please have Robert be having sex with the random girl of the week when he hears Lyanna has gone with Rhaegar. And please make it clear that he's a hypocrite totally lacking in any kind of self awareness.

I will bake you a pie. I will bake you a pie for each of Robert's bastards.

Julia Martell

Lyanna running away with a married man after voicing her doubts about Robert's faithfulness shows what a hypocrite she was. Looks like Lyanna liked to take the moral high ground while being a hypocrite.

[corbon]

Brandon went to KL demanding Rhaegar to fight him after he heard Rhaegar took his sister Aerys then killed Brandon and Rick and then demanded the heads of Ned/Robert and Arryn refused.

In Summary Rhaegar started this war because he thought taking a 14 year old girl without telling anyone would turn out to be a good idea.And people think he would have made a great king :dunno:

Go check the facts, all of them, in detail. And then put them together and rethink what they mean.

The people who thought he'd have made a great king knew Rhaegar, and knew the business of ruling. Might be they have quite a lot more understanding than readers who know neither, nor the culture nor society involved, just a collection of interspersed facts covering a timeline where mostly we have big empty blanks.

[corbon]

Lyanna running away with a married man after voicing her doubts about Robert's faithfulness shows what a hypocrite she was. Looks like Lyanna liked to take the moral high ground while being a hypocrite.

Lyanna marrying a man who has a polygamy option, a history of faithfulness, and whose other wife (whom he married out of duty and has never loved) can't risk sharing his bed any more is not at all hypocritical from what she said about Robert.

[Ser Eric]

Lyanna marrying a man who has a polygamy option, a history of faithfulness, and whose other wife (whom he married out of duty and has never loved) can't risk sharing his bed any more is not at all hypocritical from what she said about Robert.

Erm no. The last (and only) Targaryen king to embrace Polygamy lived 250 years ago and was considered a madman and ended up being murdered. No Targaryen king or prince has followed that since and there is no indication that it was even an option.

Lyanna ran away with someone who already had a wife after complaining about Robert. Hypocricy at it's finest.

[corbon]

Erm no. The last (and only) Targaryen king to embrace Polygamy lived 250 years ago and was considered a madman and ended up being murdered. No Targaryen king or prince has followed that since and there is no indication that it was even an option.

Lyanna ran away with someone who already had a wife after complaining about Robert. Hypocricy at it's finest.

Ermm, yes. A precedent remains a precedent until the law changes, whether it is used or not. There is no indication of any law change (and actually there were two Targ Kings who had polygamous marriages).

More importantly GRRM said that there may be more polygamous Targs, he'd look it up or make it up as required, which clearly indicates, whether there ends up being more or not, the idea of it being possible was clearly open in his mind.

She complained about promiscuity, not married status. Figure out the difference.

Rhaegar was perfectly capable, and likely, to be faithful within a polygamous marriage while Robert was incapable of the same even within a monogamous marriage.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Not what I expected when I opened this thread, not what I was expecting at all.

Then it's all of your fault. U_U

Again, Lyanna's comment about Robert wasn't because of his whoring but for his personality, the fact that he goes from bed to bed due to being bored by his previous flirt and can't get satisfaction. And yes, Robert doesn't commit and he gets bored easily, that's is exactly what he has done in his own marriage and rule. How Lyanna got that right? No idea, but she was right, nevertheless. Robert would have loved Lyanna for a year at most until he realised she wasn't what he wanted.

Now, that doesn't excuse Lyanna and Rhaegar. I don't believe this whole "Oh, Lyanna, sleep with me, I can have more than one wife because my ancestors did that like two centuries ago!" (worst line ever...) because it's really silly. Imagining Rhaegar actually quoting history and laws to get laid is absurd and makes Lyanna an idiot for believing him. I rather believe they actually fell for each other and had sex, and THEN, Rhaegar realised he could have two wives as a way to protect her and his child to be born.

[corbon]

Now, that doesn't excuse Lyanna and Rhaegar. I don't believe this whole "Oh, Lyanna, sleep with me, I can have more than one wife because my ancestors did that like two centuries ago!" (worst line ever...) because it's really silly. Imagining Rhaegar actually quoting history and laws to get laid is absurd and makes Lyanna an idiot for believing him. I rather believe they actually fell for each other and had sex, and THEN, Rhaegar realised he could have two wives as a way to protect her and his child to be born.

It you frame it in a silly way it will be silly.

It does not have to be framed that way at all.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It you frame it in a silly way it will be silly.

It does not have to be framed that way at all.

How would you, then? Because I'm trying to find a serious situation in which Rhaegar and Lyanna realised they both have the hots for each other and then Rhaegar suggest they would get married if she doesn't want so simply being a mistress because his family is known to do that, and Lyanna is all "ok".

[LordStoneheart]

I'm going to shamelessly mention my guess until others agree with me. :D

I imagine that after meeting during the KotLT thing, they connected because of their relationship circumstances. Rhaegar was not with a woman he felt "love" for and if his romantic persona is true, he probably yearned for something like that. Lyanna was obviously not happy with the betrothal with Robert and wanted a way out. Somehow when they met these parts of their lives, situations that neither truly wanted, brought them together to feel what they thought was love, or maybe the next best thing. I think their romance started after they disappeared.

[Mikkel]

Then, he drank the whore.

He probably fucked boars and hunted whores.

Or is that the other way around?

Or drank whores and fucked wine?

All of the above.

[corbon]

How would you, then? Because I'm trying to find a serious situation in which Rhaegar and Lyanna realised they both have the hots for each other and then Rhaegar suggest they would get married if she doesn't want so simply being a mistress because his family is known to do that, and Lyanna is all "ok".

I'd suggest he was looking for a wife rather than a mistress anyway - one would think he would think of princes(ses), not bastards, for his heads of the dragon.

And I'd suggest there's a fair possibility she was more on the 'if you want it, put a ring on it' line herself. Not to mention "get me un-marriable to Robert, and quickly before its too late" line.

So I'm thinking that we are in general agreement that it would be silly to frame it as 'I want to get laid, look if it works out I could married you later because, polygamy'.

More sensible options would develop along the lines of "I'm looking for another wife to father more children on and after your deeds at Harrenhal, I think you would be awesome" and/or "I certainly don't like the husband option I look like getting stuck with, but Mr gorgeous-rock-star-prince who liked what I did as KotLT, has a reputation as a good man, and protected my secret there... you could be a great alternative - how do we sort this out?"

Probably not as blunt as that, at least initially, I don't know, but IMO thats much more like what they were likely really thinking underneath that your framing that we both agree is somewhat silly.

[Ser Eric]

Ermm, yes. A precedent remains a precedent until the law changes, whether it is used or not. There is no indication of any law change (and actually there were two Targ Kings who had polygamous marriages).

More importantly GRRM said that there may be more polygamous Targs, he'd look it up or make it up as required, which clearly indicates, whether there ends up being more or not, the idea of it being possible was clearly open in his mind.

She complained about promiscuity, not married status. Figure out the difference.

Rhaegar was perfectly capable, and likely, to be faithful within a polygamous marriage while Robert was incapable of the same even within a monogamous marriage.

Aegon was already married twice when he was king. And GRRM has also said the Targaryens dare not defy the faith too much, what with the incest already an issue. Not even the sex crazy Aegon 4 married twice. So, we are back down to one Targaryen king in 300 years of rule and he was considered mad.

Rhaegar was not likely to be faithful. He left his wife to pursue a teenage girl.. He then proceeded to leave his wife and kids in charge of raging lunatic while he made sweet love to his mistress. Marrying someone (and taking advantage of an age old precedence) for the purpose of having sex with them is unfaithfulness. And of course Lyanna was ok with it because she liked Rhaegar.

You can twist it however you like trying to make out Robert to be the sole bad guy but Lyanna was clearly a hypocrite. There's no two ways about it. Amazing how much shit Robert while Saint Lyanna is never wrong.

And we don't know how Robert might have turned out had he married Lyanna. It's quite clear he was a broken man after the Rebellion.

[LordStoneheart]

*sigh* Been a while since I adamantly defended the Wolf Maid but it appears to need doing.

First off, just because Lyanna was (seemingly) with Rhaegar of her own accord does not make what she said about Robert any less true and it does not make her hypocrite. I'm not convinced you know what "hypocrisy" means. She did not want to marry him because he wouldn't keep to one bed. Lyanna wasn't married to Robert yet, so she was not "cheating" on him. She didn't want his bed and was never part of it, therefore it can't be said that she was a hypocrite because of her "never keep to one bed" statement because for what it seems she certainly kept to one bed. She was right on the mark considering he did not keep to one bed before or after the Rebellion. it was simply his nature to be a promiscuous man.

And as the SSM says, there is a precedent for polygamy but you've yet to provide good evidence as to why the Faith would be mad at this. They protested Aenys because he was born of incest and though Maegor tried they were never truly quelled. Even after Jaehaerys and the death of the dragons, the incest marriages continued. They were obviously okay with it to an extent. And Elia was related to Rhaegar distantly. We can't say the same of the Starks. so the argument that Rhaegar could not at all request another marriage is not strong. We have no indications the Rhaegar strayed from his marriage at other times and more than a few indications that the disappearance with Lyanna wasn't simply a case of teenage love. There was most likely a reason behind it, one that he considered important.

[corbon]

Aegon was already married twice when he was king. And GRRM has also said the Targaryens dare not defy the faith too much, what with the incest already an issue. Not even the sex crazy Aegon 4 married twice. So, we are back down to one Targaryen king in 300 years of rule and he was considered mad.

He's (Aegon tC) still a King who had two wives.

And Maegor was Cruel, not Mad.

You are putting words in GRRMS mouth that he did not say I am afraid. There are several dfifferent quotes but none of them say what you claim. THe most they do is indicates that some undefined things became more difficult (not impossible) without Dragons. Yet incest, a much worse 'crime' was still possible for Aerys.

But I guess you are going to insist on the irrational position that they 'couldn't' risk polygamy, a situation which is not clearly regulated against anywhere in the canon, even though they explicitly could and did actively pursue incest, something explicitly against the laws of gods and men. Even without dragons.

Rhaegar was not likely to be faithful. He left his wife to pursue a teenage girl..

A wife which he never loved and who could no longer give him children so he had no reason to ever sleep with again (indeed, it could be risky for her health for him to do so).

He was faithful to the first wife, as far as is known and by his characterisation. He can't risk sleeping with her now, and has no desire or need to, but he still must have another child. So he can transfer his faithfulness to a second women.

He then proceeded to leave his wife and kids in charge of raging lunatic while he made sweet love to his mistress.

Bullshit.

He left his wife and kids in the safest place in the seven kingdoms, protected by a paranoid king, not a raging lunatic, who was the person who chose the wife and was the gandfather of the children.

The raging lunatism came later, and was never evidenced before Brandon's Trial.

And neither Elia nor Rahegar's kids were ever harmed or threatened under while under Aerys' power. Elia's presence being a reminder works on the dornish, not her.

Marrying someone (and taking advantage of an age old precedence) for the purpose of having sex with them is unfaithfulness. And of course Lyanna was ok with it because she liked Rhaegar.

Unfaithfulness is having sex with someone not your regular sexual partner. Robert did this all the time. Lyanna never did it (to our knowledge). Rhaegar never did it (to our knowledge). Elia ceased to be his regular sexual partner when Aegon was bron because she couldn't have kids and a pregnancy could kill her and they were never in love anyway, only married out of duty.

You can twist it however you like trying to make out Robert to be the sole bad guy but Lyanna was clearly a hypocrite. There's no two ways about it. Amazing how much shit Robert while Saint Lyanna is never wrong.

Facts are facts. No one is twisting anything, although you seem to have trouble with some definitions.

Robert hopped beds at every opportunity. Lyanna only ever had one bed partner we know of. Rhaegar had only one bed partner we know of up to a certain time, and when that parrtner could no longer share his bed had only one other bed partner.

Don't forget, this is about statecraft and heirs between Rhaegar and Elia. Not love, and its unknown whether he even had a faithfulness vow or promise to her at all, let alone for life.

And we don't know how Robert might have turned out had he married Lyanna. It's quite clear he was a broken man after the Rebellion.

Whats quite clear about Robert is that he was a drunken philanderer Lord before the rebellion, a drunken philanderer Rebel during the rebellion and a drunken philanderer King after it.

But the booze and the philandering were constant, as is evidenced in multiple places.

[Ser Eric]

*sigh* Been a while since I adamantly defended the Wolf Maid but it appears to need doing.

First off, just because Lyanna was (seemingly) with Rhaegar of her own accord does not make what she said about Robert any less true and it does not make her hypocrite. I'm not convinced you know what "hypocrisy" means. She did not want to marry him because he wouldn't keep to one bed. Lyanna wasn't married to Robert yet, so she was not "cheating" on him. She didn't want his bed and was never part of it, therefore it can't be said that she was a hypocrite because of her "never keep to one bed" statement because for what it seems she certainly kept to one bed. She was right on the mark considering he did not keep to one bed before or after the Rebellion. it was simply his nature to be a promiscuous man.

Maybe, you should look at the post I initially replied to unless you are suggesting Robert was a hypocrite because he had sex with other girls but Lyanna wasn't for doing the same with Rhaegar. If that's the case, it would make you a hypocrite.

Second, Lyanna is a hypocrite not because she had sex with Rhaegar but because she had sex with a married man after voicing doubts over Robert's ability to keep to one bed. That is blatant hypocrisy.

And as the SSM says, there is a precedent for polygamy but you've yet to provide good evidence as to why the Faith would be mad at this. They protested Aenys because he was born of incest and though Maegor tried they were never truly quelled. Even after Jaehaerys and the death of the dragons, the incest marriages continued. They were obviously okay with it to an extent. And Elia was related to Rhaegar distantly. We can't say the same of the Starks. so the argument that Rhaegar could not at all request another marriage is not strong. We have no indications the Rhaegar strayed from his marriage at other times and more than a few indications that the disappearance with Lyanna wasn't simply a case of teenage love. There was most likely a reason behind it, one that he considered important.

I am not sure what this post is about. I never said they stopped incest. I sad they were already pushing the boundaries of the faith by engaging in incest and there's probably a very good reason why no Targaryen king since Maegor has practiced poygamy.

[LordStoneheart]

it is not hypocrisy because as stated by at least one other, her objection wasn't about marriage, it was about promiscuity, something that applies to neither her or Rhaegar.

[Ser Eric]

He's (Aegon tC) still a King who had two wives.

And Maegor was Cruel, not Mad.

You are putting words in GRRMS mouth that he did not say I am afraid. There are several dfifferent quotes but none of them say what you claim. THe most they do is indicates that some undefined things became more difficult (not impossible) without Dragons. Yet incest, a much worse 'crime' was still possible for Aerys.

But I guess you are going to insist on the irrational position that they 'couldn't' risk polygamy, a situation which is not clearly regulated against anywhere in the canon, even though they explicitly could and did actively pursue incest, something explicitly against the laws of gods and men. Even without dragons.

Aegon did not marry in Westeros and was married before he became King and conquered Westeros.

Maegor is listed as one of the mad kings on wiki though I do tend to agree. He was more cruel than mad.

And yet despite that, they continued with incest but never polygamy.Not even Aegon 4 embraced Polygamy.

A wife which he never loved and who could no longer give him children so he had no reason to ever sleep with again (indeed, it could be risky for her health for him to do so).

He was faithful to the first wife, as far as is known and by his characterisation. He can't risk sleeping with her now, and has no desire or need to, but he still must have another child. So he can transfer his faithfulness to a second women.

Except he crowned Lyanna at Harrenhal before Aegon was even born. Before he knew Elia would have no more kids. He shamed his Queen. And unless I am wrong, it says Elia can no longer have children not that having anymore children would kill her (could be wrong though). In any case, this is a bit irreleavant to Lyanna's thought process.

Bullshit.

He left his wife and kids in the safest place in the seven kingdoms, protected by a paranoid king, not a raging lunatic, who was the person who chose the wife and was the gandfather of the children.

The raging lunatism came later, and was never evidenced before Brandon's Trial.

And neither Elia nor Rahegar's kids were ever harmed or threatened under while under Aerys' power. Elia's presence being a reminder works on the dornish, not her.

He was known as the Mad King. He was the person who intended to blow up KL (and his children and wife with it). He was the person who held his wife and children hostage when he could have sent them to safety. He was the person who raped his mother. He was mad which is why there was talk about a coup. So, no, not bullshit after all.

Facts are facts. No one is twisting anything, although you seem to have trouble with some definitions.

Robert hopped beds at every opportunity. Lyanna only ever had one bed partner we know of. Rhaegar had only one bed partner we know of up to a certain time, and when that parrtner could no longer share his bed had only one other bed partner.

Don't forget, this is about statecraft and heirs between Rhaegar and Elia. Not love, and its unknown whether he even had a faithfulness vow or promise to her at all, let alone for life.

So, now we are down to counting how many times they had sex...Jesus. I repeat, she slept with a married man. She should NOT be complaining about who Robert is fucking before he has even married her. Seemingly, Robert was more faithful than Rhaegar was before the latter died. Now , that is a fact, which is more than I can say for your asertion abour Rhaegar likely being faithful.

Whats quite clear about Robert is that he was a drunken philanderer Lord before the rebellion, a drunken philanderer Rebel during the rebellion and a drunken philanderer King after it.But the booze and the philandering were constant, as is evidenced in multiple places.

He didn't love Cersie though and it was a political marriage. So, by your logic you can't blame Robert. With Cersie as his wife, it's wonder he didn't commit suicide. Rhaegar at least had Elia.