R+L=J v.94

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I picture Robert getting into his bed every night, "yes! tonight I shall kill Rhaegar Targaryen! AGAIN!!"

How funny would be if at some point, both Robert and Cersei screamed "RHAEGAR!!!!" at the same time during sex...

..awkward...

[Hazel of Summerhall]

Hi! I'm new to R+L=J. Theories about them are really compelling.

I just want to ask if Lyanna was accompanied by someone during her delivery? Because if they've been so in love, why would Rhaegar let her be pregnant without any assistance at that time? I doubt it would've been hard for him to find someone who could help and keep the secret.

[BearQueen87]

Hi! I'm new to R+L=J. Theories about them are really compelling.

I just want to ask if Lyanna was accompanied by someone during her delivery? Because if they've been so in love, why would Rhaegar let her be pregnant without any assistance at that time? I doubt it would've been hard for him to find someone who could help and keep the secret.

Welcome to the fun! :cheers:

As to your question: many of us believe that Lyanna and Rhaegar and the KG were not alone but had a few servants with them, including either a midwife and a wet nurse or a midwife/wet nurse combo. IMO, most of these servants came from Starfall, a very loyal Targaryen house.

[Hazel of Summerhall]

Thank you for the reply :)

[stateofdissipation]

Hi! I'm new to R+L=J. Theories about them are really compelling.

I just want to ask if Lyanna was accompanied by someone during her delivery? Because if they've been so in love, why would Rhaegar let her be pregnant without any assistance at that time? I doubt it would've been hard for him to find someone who could help and keep the secret.

Rheagar was dead, Probably not something he had planned on being,..

Ned's account has him present for the birth.

[BearQueen87]

Thank you for the reply :)

If you go back and re-read Ned's account of finding Lyanna in her bed of blood, "they" found Ned holding Lyanna's body, but by that point 5 of Ned's companions are dead, as are the 3 Kingsgurad. Only Howland Reed is left standing. But Howland Reed =/= they.

[Hazel of Summerhall]

Rheagar was dead, Probably not something he had planned on being,..

Ned's account has him present for the birth.

I just thought he would anticipate Lyanna's needs.

If you go back and re-read Ned's account of finding Lyanna in her bed of blood, "they" found Ned holding Lyanna's body, but by that point 5 of Ned's companions are dead, as are the 3 Kingsgurad. Only Howland Reed is left standing. But Howland Reed =/= they.

That's very interesting. I've only read the series once coz I had internship to finish; so I really have to get back on reading this soon.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm very sure there were some servants around. As many have pointed out, the KG was not going to wash their clothes and make their food. In worst case scenario, they didn't have a midwife
there but maybe some random service women with some minor experience.

[Hazel of Summerhall]

I'm very sure there were some servants around. As many have pointed out, the KG was not going to wash their clothes and make their food. In worst case scenario, they didn't have a midwife

there but maybe some random service women with some minor experience.

Yes. I also think of Joanna giving birth to Tyrion, who might've had more access to better midwives or maesters. I guess complications during birth in Westeros can be very difficult.

[BearQueen87]

Yes. I also think of Joanna giving birth to Tyrion, who might've had more access to better midwives or maesters. I guess complications during birth in Westeros can be very difficult.

High born and low born alike die in childbirth in Westeros, sadly. Joanna, Lyanna, Queen Rhaella, Jorah Mormont's first wife...list goes on.

[Hazel of Summerhall]

Speaking of queens, I noticed how in tPatQ and tRP that Rhaenyra Targaryen had Velaryon sons which did not share any Valyrian features (even if the rumor is true that they were bastard sons, I thought they would have at least purple eyes). Are there other Targaryens, besides Jon, who didn't have purple eyes and pale hair?

[BearQueen87]

Speaking of queens, I noticed how in tPatQ and tRP that Rhaenyra Targaryen had Velaryon sons which did not share any Valyrian features (even if the rumor is true that they were bastard sons, I thought they would have at least purple eyes). Are there other Targaryens, besides Jon, who didn't have purple eyes and pale hair?

Yup

Off the top of my head: Baelor Breakspear, Rhaenys Targaryen, Valaar (Baelor's son), Aegor Rivers

I'm sure others can provide more

ETA: worth pointing out that Aegor is half Targaryen (like Jon)

[Hazel of Summerhall]

Awesome. Thanks again. :)

[stateofdissipation]

I just thought he would anticipate Lyanna's needs.

That's very interesting. I've only read the series once coz I had internship to finish; so I really have to get back on reading this soon.

Anticipating things that happen months after one's death.... very difficult.

the whole need to be secret thing takes a big hit if one brings a couple dozen servants..

[ArabellaVidal]

Anticipating things that happen months after one's death.... very difficult.

the whole need to be secret thing takes a big hit if one brings a couple dozen servants..

How many months? Didn't Rhaegar know about her pregnancy? If Rhaegar didn't provide for the birth, isn't it natural to assume that Arthur Dayne would have had the resources to arrange for a midwife?

A noblewoman, a crown prince, and two KG before the arrival of the LC would have had at least three or four servants, at least logically, for an extended stay. I don't think they emptied their own chamberpots.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Speaking of births and death, I've been doing some random rereading to figure out some things about Rhaegar, something that came to my mind in a previous thread (can't remember if it is a RLJ thread) about what he and Elia felt for each other and how his relationship with Lyanna affected her. We often thing about Lyanna and Elia when we mention R but we're forgetting another important lady: his mom.

I know many people think Rhaegar was "obsessed" with the prophecy, but I don't think that's true. For a man being "obsessed" about that, few people knew about such obsession. To give an example, my boss knew about my passion for Glee (yes, I'm not ashamed!) because I often twitted about how great it was (I do believe that, k?). The only one knowing about that, that we know about, was Aemon who was a relative of him and he was an educated man who could have helped. The rest of people didn't know, not even Barristan who knew that Rhaegar decided to learn how to fight, but didn't know the reason. Even as a child, Rhaegar seemed to have been a reserved private person. I suppose the only people knowing about the prophecy were Aemon, Elia and Arthur. And possibly Lyanna. Many even claim that all of his actions were because of the prophecy, but to me, he looked like a complete rational functional person, not at all "obsessed", except when it was needed to make some observations and decisions about it. I definitely don't believe that Rhaegar went to pee thinking about the prophecy, and that's why many weren't aware of that part of his life.

Nevertheless, it was an important part of his life, so, during the two last years of his life, I guess that Rhaegar had two main priorities:

1. The prophecy

2. Aerys being mad.

#1 was very related to his family, and #2 was linked to him as a Prince and future King, two aspects of his life.

We know that, according to Aemon, Rhaegar thought he was the PtwP and he changed his mind when Aegon was born. I think that one of the reasons he realised he wasn't going to be tptwp was Rhaella not having more children. Rhaegar was aware of his father's mind state and that he and his mother had a terrible relationship. Also, Rhaella was over 40, and it's hard to have children at that age. We know that Dany was told by visionRhaegar that "the dragon had three heads". If he interpreted that as the Prince being part of a "three", then he had to realise that it would only be him and Viserys and no more kids from his parents, but him, being young and being married, could have fathered three kids to fulfil the prophecy. I'll get back at this point later.

#2, I reckon R thought it was important, but it wasn't as important as prepare himself (or his kids) for the apocalypse. That's why he told Jaime that he should have done that (depose Aerys) long ago: because he wasn't actually that worried about it. The ones worried were, imo, Arthur and Whent and they convinced Rhaegar that it was the right thing to do.

First, we have the Tourney of HH. It was indeed a good idea, but it didn't work because Varys ruined it. We don't really see Rhaegar much worried about that but I suppose he had to agree that they couldn't plan anything as long as Varys was around. That's when Arthur offered Starfall and the infamous ToJ. The question is, why did they wait almost a whole year to get there? Simply: Elia was pregnant again. If the birth of Rhaenys was difficult, it was surely that her next delivery would be the same. So, that's the reason Rhaegar decided to wait almost a year to carry on with the plan, because of Elia. Arthur had to wait. When Aegon was born, there was another problem. That was the last child Elia would give birth to. If he wasn't going to be the prince because his mother wouldn't bear more children and his own wife's life was in danger with another pregnancy, then what else?

So, I think that up until that moment, he didn't even have Lyanna in his mind to consider her as "future mother of his child" like many thing. I think that he actually tried to go NOrth and ask Aemon personally. We know he didn't got there -people would remember a visit of the Prince- so I suppose his first intentions were going North and take that route, the same Lyanna was taking to go South.

[UtherSnow]

- Ned was not a warg, while Lyanna's superb riding skills suggest that she might have been one.

Ned's kids only begin to develop their ability with the appearance of the Direwolf cubs. It may have been dormant in Ned, un-awakened but ready. Who knows if the cubs mother was meant for him?

Robb - sensed Grey Wind

Sansa - deprived of the experience with Lady when Ned did the deed

Arya - seems to enjoy her wolf-dreams. unaware she is a warg. It appears to be Nymeria that's contacting her, maybe.

Bran - already discovered what it's about, and what dangers it holds.

Rickon - perhaps he's too young, but Shaggydog shadows his moods. (Fear, rage, anger)

Jon - senses Ghost. He's been told he is a warg. Whether or not he believes it isn't apparent but... we may see later.

It appears that the younger you are, the easier it is to warg. It takes more time to emerge when you're older.

Also, cut from the link, the ability doesn't come through. There is no medium to forge a connection.

[Hazel of Summerhall]

How many months? Didn't Rhaegar know about her pregnancy? If Rhaegar didn't provide for the birth, isn't it natural to assume that Arthur Dayne would have had the resources to arrange for a midwife?

A noblewoman, a crown prince, and two KG before the arrival of the LC would have had at least three or four servants, at least logically, for an extended stay. I don't think they emptied their own chamberpots.

I agree, that is why I had the question first. Didn't Rhaegar know she was pregnant? It's a 9-month process. I was worried that the lack of having servants led her to birthing a child alone since he has died already.

[ArabellaVidal]

Ned's kids only begin to develop their ability with the appearance of the Direwolf cubs. It may have been dormant in Ned, un-awakened but ready. Who knows if the cubs mother was meant for him?

Robb - sensed Grey Wind

Sansa - deprived of the experience with Lady when Ned did the deed

Arya - seems to enjoy her wolf-dreams. unaware she is a warg. It appears to be Nymeria that's contacting her, maybe.

Bran - already discovered what it's about, and what dangers it holds.

Rickon - perhaps he's too young, but Shaggydog shadows his moods. (Fear, rage, anger)

Jon - senses Ghost. He's been told he is a warg. Whether or not he believes it isn't apparent but... we may see later.

It appears that the younger you are, the easier it is to warg. It takes more time to emerge when you're older.p

Also, cut from the link, the ability doesn't come through. There is no medium to forge a connection.

It has been argued thatbecause Sansa did have Lady for quite some time, she is still a warg and manifests that ability in another manner. For example, her empathy, the constant sense of Lady being missing from her side, something magical about the building of snow Winterfell.

As for Jon, hasn't he already actually warged into Ghost? He saw the wildling army through Ghost's eyes for the first time, IIRC.

[ArabellaVidal]

I agree, that is why I had the question first. Didn't Rhaegar know she was pregnant? It's a 9-month process. I was worried that the lack of having servants led her to birthing a child alone since he has died already.

There is a valid possiblity that it was Wylla, a Starfall servant, who assisted in the birth. We know from Edric Dayne's conversation with Arya that she is believed to be Jon's mother because she nursed him. It is highly unlikely that no one nursed Jon on the long journey to Starfall from the ToJ.