R+L=J v.94

[Ser Creighton]

Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

In seventh grade, I actually had a friend a lot like Rhaegar. She got into a fight with another girl and the girls glasses fell off, well, "Rhaegarina," decided to help her find her glasses, and then the other girl sucker-punched her.

In their case though, they just ended up in Mr, Mutterbacks office.

Yes, now as then, sometimes "honor" is that guy in the bar you just have to ignore if your going to make it back to your place in peace.

Hey slow it down, this is a horrible philosophy, guys at the end of bars are people too.

Now if your in a fight be the one that finishes it. But Rhaegar was not really a warrior, skilled yes, but a warrior? No. There is also the nagging question of why he crossed the Trident brought up in the books. It seems surprising that he did not wait for Robert to cross, he put himself at a disadvantage almost as if he didn't think he would die. This is mentioned in the book about him attempting to cross the trident and it is also mentioned how Ned was pretty much patient which aided Robert a lot.

But back to HH for a moment.

So there is all this talk about Robert wanting to see Lyanna, which yeah it's Robert. But when I read the passage from Thrones it's seems rather obvious.

“Robert will never keep to one bed,”

How would Lyanna make this assertion unless she met Robert? We know from thrones Robert had never been in the North before. At the time of Mya, Robert had only been known to be in one bed with one daughter/child. Lyanna' statement suggests she knows Robert gets around, which is true but I doubt at the time of the proposal Ned was like man Lyanna you should see this guy in action.

“Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled."

“Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

How could she know his nature unless she met him? I am not saying it is out of character for her but we don't really have that established. It's a leap in logic but where does it stem from?

So:

Ned came down from the Vale to HH

All his family is there save Rickard.

At HH Lyanna sees Robert in action, and Robert may have slept with more than one woman there. Not out of character for him.

Now I have seen it speculated that Robert made the proposal after what Rhaegar had done when he crowned Lyanna. Maybe, maybe not.

HH was 10 days.

Howland Reed on the Isle of Faces.

“All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave.”

I don't know how long the false spring lasted, but this occurs early in the false spring. For that matter I don't know when it began. First moon or 5th moon or what have you. But it is early in the Indian summer.

The tourney had not yet begun.

“A great tourney was about to commence,”

Day 1 HR.

Howland is set upon by 3 squires. Enter the she wold of Winterfell Lyanna.

Howland meets the big bad wolves.

Lyanna cleans up Howland

There is an opening feat that night.

“That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney,”

Lyanna drags Howland to the feast

Rhaegar sings Moon River and cries all over his Harp.

Lots of Dancing and drinking

5 Days of Jousting are planned among other things. But it would seem illogical for the Jousting to take place the first five days. More like the last 5 days as after the crowning of the Queen of love and beauty it would pretty much be over. And from Neds recollection I don't think Robert would be all smiles in the melee.

Normally there should be a closing feast, did it happen, if so who said what to Rhaegar or had he left? What did the Starks say to each other? Did the King put an end to it right there?

Anyway is it out of the realm of possibility that the proposal was Neds idea? Ned did not seem thrilled about the loral or perhaps it had already been proposed. Either way we know there was some conflict involved in it. Lyanna did not want Robert and honestly I think she probably liked Robert well enough, just not that kind of like. Robert appears very much like Brandon and I think she probably met and got along with him just fine as she has spent her life around a guy very much like him and it probably would not be a struggle for her to relate to him.

I don't honestly know if Robert would make a proposal, marriage never seemed like his thing and at 18 Robert probably still wanted to have some fun, a lot of fun. Maybe Ned convinced him. It's Ned after all who is trying to convince Lyanna at Winterfell.

So if the proposal does happen at HH it does make perfect sense for Ned to return with Lyanna. Not only to make the offer but to prevent Lyanna from talking her way out of it and to try and convince her that it was going to be ok.

Robert may have gone to the Vale to see Jon. It's not actually mentioned that Robert went to the Tourney with Ned, he may have been coming from Storms End where he is The Lord. So after their father accepts the proposal Ned is trying to rationalize the idea and Lyanna is trying to explain to him the truth about his friend which Ned as we know is often blind too.

Afterwards Ned goes to meet Robert in the Vale and winter returns, leaving Ned and Robert stuck there. Sure they could of traveled but why risk it, it's a second home to them.

There must have also been some interest in the realm during all this. House Stark has become very close with the Tullys, Arryns and Baratheons. While Dorne and the Reach don't get along and nobody seems to care for the Lannisters including the crown. Nobody will marry Tyrion and he seemed hell bent on getting Cersei with the Prince, Tywin refusing every offer for her hand. Tywin is not the type too sit and pout about losses he is a rather proactive fellow.

Tywin played the Aerys self destructive card but without the death of Rhaegar, Elia, the kids, and Lyanna being kidnapped, and Brandon doing what he did, and Aerys calling for the heads of Ned and Robert he is not even close to getting what he wanted. I would think he would have been doing something other than just waiting. Or maybe that's all he did and he lucked into everything else.

[ArabellaVidal]

@Set Creighton

Regarding Robert's willingness or otherwise to settle down with a wife.

It isn't outside the realm of possibility that Robert was the one to make the proposal. He may have developed a passion for Lyanna or an idea of her, at the ToH. But because she is highborn and his best friend's sister, he knows he must marry her in order to have her. Wouldn't he then justify it all in his mind by believing himself in love?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Thank you for linking your wiki page, but I have to say I disagree with the calculations.

Mya is noted as being 17 or 18 in late 298, placing her birth in 280 or 281. She is noted as nineteen in early 300, placing her birth in early 281 (or 280 if she will turn 20 in 300) Ned's musing that she is 17 or 18 in late 298 and "older than Robert had been when he fathered her" is in line with those years and certainly does not rule out a birth year of early 281, since as I'm sure you know there are nine months between "fathering" a child and its birth. In 279 Robert would have been 15/16 if he was born in 263. In 280 he was 16/17, either of which would fit Ned's statement. If any year can be ruled out I believe it is 279, as by the year 300 a child born in 279 would be nearing her 21st nameday. As for the memories of an infant, who can say? She remembers a man tossing her up in the air. That is certainly in line with the type of memory children can have of their earliest life and really can't be used scientifically to rule a particular scenario out.

The timeline Mtn Lion posted is one that has been discussed here frequently in the past. There are reasons beyond Mya's age that would indicate that Ned did not travel to Winterfell prior to the ToH, not the least of which would be the weather (assuming that "False Spring" is what comes after winter) Imo, the logical conclusion based upon the all the clues text is that Ned traveled to Winterfell with his siblings after the Tourney to present Robert's suit, and then returned to the Vale to deliver his father's acceptance to Robert, placing him there once more at the outbreak of the Rebellion.

Ah see, that's the problem.. how should the appendix be read? Does the appendix show the ages from the first chapter? Or from when that character first appears on page? But if that's the case, then what about he characters that are mentioned only in the appendix and have an age listed?

So for Mya, should the appendix be read as that she's 19 in late 299AC (in which case she still can have been born in 279AC, as she's ben 19 turning 20 in the end of the year) or should it be read as that she's 19 when she first appears, in 300AC (in which case, Mya can no longer have been born in 279AC, and would thus be confirmed to have been born in 280AC)?

That Ned wouldn't travel near the end of winter is a strange one. At the end of winter, doesn't the weather already get better? And look at winters in our world. They can be really bad (think Stannid stuck in the North at the end of Dance) but thy can also be very mild.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I had been thinking about answering the travelling in winter notion before. I still don't know how to write a concise argument, so maybe I shouldn't try? I still give it a try: There has been a lot of travelling in winter in MA times. There has always been. There have been a few very pivotal times when winter has stopped free travel in Europe. But very few decisive ones.

Winter comes with rainfall - there's a lot of rain all the year through in central Europe, and winter is no different. In the mountains, and there are lots of them, winter turns the rain to snow and worse stuff. Harsh winters may bring snow and ice down to the plains and river valleys for a short time.

Travel over land does not suffer very much, outside the mountains. Frozen over mudlands may even speed it up. Snow in the mountains means less water in the waterways the longer the winter lasts. When the snow melts, travel will be impossible on the waterways as they get flooded for a while, in spring.

Story time.

A winter anecdote:

A very notable incident happened in 1562 when the German-Roman king and emperor was elected (as was usual) in Frankfurt, and the realm was at the verge of a civil war. The candidate was disputed, and was warned that he would face ambushes and possible death as soon as he'd leave the city. While election juridically made the prince a ruler, there could have been argument that only coronation would allow everyone to see him ruling. Coronation was traditionally done in Aachen, 234 kilometers downriver. An extreme winter had made the river impassable (a rather unusual situation), the land in-between although being ruled by the electorate princes was supposed to be hostile.

As all the nobility were present, and all of them would have to go on that perilous journey, they changed the law, lore and instituted a new tradition: they made Frankfurt the place for coronation, too. Problem solved, no devastating civil war ensued, or at least not too soon, not there and then.

I remember another anecdote about the kidnapping of a noble girl

where then emperor's youngest daughter was kidnapped by a hedge knight in the Brussels/Brabant area and not returned, nor found while all the realm was set to search for her. She returned after a longish time. Stragely enough the emperor pardoned the hedge knight, offered him lands, titles and his youngest daughter's hand in marriage. The emperor kept his word and thus created a new house on matrilineal roots, that turned out to be mostly very peaceful, cunning and growing strong. It would become one of the most poweful ever through the centuries to follow. When they were to be awarded higher ranking titles of nobility, fitting their power, they kept refusing, through all history, styling themselves as "count" when books and maps would show them as either royal or electoral "duke". It reminds me of the Dornish kings who style themselves as Princes, while the first part is a bit of Bael the Bard. Also, it catapults a nobody right into high nobility with just a word.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But also, it was the year of the False Spring, suggesting both winter weather before and after.. one of the arguments is that Ned wouldn't have travelled through the winter weather before the tourney, and thus went to Winterfell after the tourney.. only then he would have needed to travel from Winterfell to the Eyrie in winter weather, because the False Spring was over and winter had returned..

No matter if he went to Winterfell before or after the tourney, on both occasions would he have needed to travel through winter weather.

[sweetsunray]

There is a valid possiblity that it was Wylla, a Starfall servant, who assisted in the birth. We know from Edric Dayne's conversation with Arya that she is believed to be Jon's mother because she nursed him. It is highly unlikely that no one nursed Jon on the long journey to Starfall from the ToJ.

Wylla was a wet-nurse, not necessarily a midwife. And with the secrecy needed Lyanna could have been expected to nurse her child herself. So, there is little reason for there to be a wet-nurse at birth. But Lyanna dies, and Ned passes out, and HR needs to find someone to nurse the baby, and might have gone looking for a wet-nurse and found Wylla.

I also doubt whether there might have been a midwife present at all. Jon might have been born a little prematurely, and not carried to full term (with the shock of Lyanna learning about Rhaegar's fate, and that of her brother and father). Even if he was carried full term, there was no reason for Rhaegar to arrange for a midwife in the ToJ when Lyanna was 7 or 8 months pregnant. And there doesn't seem to be a mid-wife present when Lyanna was bleeding out, because Ned didn't explicitly meet with a mid-wife (but the paragraphs are too short and too obscure, so there might have been one present, and GRRM left the info out to conceal Lyanna died in childbirth). Still, it's not far-fetched to assume there wasn't any midwife, and Lyanna went through the birthing by herself and a few servants who didn't know what they were doing really. The likelihood of her dying without any midwife is huge.

The KG weren't much of a help either. They guarded the ToJ, while Lyanna was bleeding out.

[Ygrain]

Lyanna didn't bleed out during childbirth, she lived long enough to succumb to fever ("fever had taken her strength"). Childbed fever takes several days to develop and several more to kill, which is enough to get the people looking for a wetnurse.

[sweetsunray]

Lyanna didn't bleed out during childbirth, she lived long enough to succumb to fever ("fever had taken her strength"). Childbed fever takes several days to develop and several more to kill, which is enough to get the people looking for a wetnurse.

My bad and true. I forgot about that.

[stateofdissipation]

My bad and true. I forgot about that.

You did not forget about it.... Cause of death is not specified...

There is blood and a fever. Room smelled of blood and roses... fever had taken her strength...

By the by... this happened after the ToJ though the time between the two is unspecified.

There was a hypothesis running around that Lyanna had puerperal fever in a round about way to assert kingsguard means king present at the ToJ. It died as follows:

The pueperal fever as cause of death supports the KG at the ToJ must be protecting the king if

Ned travelled more than 50 miles a day

and

News travelled to the ToJ at no less than 7/6ths Ned's speed and no more than 7/5ths of Ned's speed.

"She had a fever - it MUST be puerperal! And that kills 7-10 days AFTER birth! So Lyanna MUST'VE died of puerperal fever! And Jon must've been born 7-10 days before she died, because it was puerperal fever that killed her and that's how long it takes!"

[sweetsunray]

You did not forget about it.... Cause of death is not specified...

There is blood and a fever. Room smelled of blood and roses... fever had taken her strength...

By the by... this happened after the ToJ though the time between the two is unspecified.

There was a hypothesis running around that Lyanna had puerperal fever in a round about way to assert kingsguard means king present at the ToJ. It died as follows:

The pueperal fever as cause of death supports the KG at the ToJ must be protecting the king if

Ned travelled more than 50 miles a day

and

News travelled to the ToJ at no less than 7/6ths Ned's speed and no more than 7/5ths of Ned's speed.

"She had a fever - it MUST be puerperal! And that kills 7-10 days AFTER birth! So Lyanna MUST'VE died of puerperal fever! And Jon must've been born 7-10 days before she died, because it was puerperal fever that killed her and that's how long it takes!"

The last sounds like circular reasoning, hehe.

But with the assumption she died after giving birth, and had a fever, then childbed fever seems a likely candidate. It used to be called the doctor's plague, because doctors didn't wash their hands while assisting women giving birth. And one of the common ways to contract it is through the staphylococci that inhabitat the skin and pimples or the anaerobe ones that originate from bacteria in the cervical or vagina and develops after trauma (childbirth is a type of physical trauma for the mother), especially after long arduous labour, in unhygienic circumstances and unskilled delivery. It can include bleeding and lead to sepsis (blood poisoning).

As for how many days it takes to die from it: it is usually contracted within the first three days after giving birth and progresses rapidly. The 10 days is a fever measurement time period, not a time of how long it takes to die. The mother is monitored for having a fever of more than 24hrs in the first 10 days.

[BearQueen87]

Anyway is it out of the realm of possibility that the proposal was Neds idea? Ned did not seem thrilled about the loral or perhaps it had already been proposed. Either way we know there was some conflict involved in it. Lyanna did not want Robert and honestly I think she probably liked Robert well enough, just not that kind of like. Robert appears very much like Brandon and I think she probably met and got along with him just fine as she has spent her life around a guy very much like him and it probably would not be a struggle for her to relate to him.

I don't honestly know if Robert would make a proposal, marriage never seemed like his thing and at 18 Robert probably still wanted to have some fun, a lot of fun. Maybe Ned convinced him. It's Ned after all who is trying to convince Lyanna at Winterfell.

So if the proposal does happen at HH it does make perfect sense for Ned to return with Lyanna. Not only to make the offer but to prevent Lyanna from talking her way out of it and to try and convince her that it was going to be ok.

Robert may have gone to the Vale to see Jon. It's not actually mentioned that Robert went to the Tourney with Ned, he may have been coming from Storms End where he is The Lord. So after their father accepts the proposal Ned is trying to rationalize the idea and Lyanna is trying to explain to him the truth about his friend which Ned as we know is often blind too.

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility, no. Ned considered Robert to be a brother, what better way to make him really a brother than to join their houses. Add that extra layer of guilt to Ned's character.

The KG weren't much of a help either. They guarded the ToJ, while Lyanna was bleeding out.

They likely knew she was dying. The constant bleeding, a midwife telling them what was going on. But what are they supposed to do? They can't transport her and the baby, way too much risk factor for both mother and child.

[sweetsunray]

They likely knew she was dying. The constant bleeding, a midwife telling them what was going on. But what are they supposed to do? They can't transport her and the baby, way too much risk factor for both mother and child.

I wasn't blaming them. Still, when I think of it, the whole scene is a bit weird. Lyanna is dying. A baby, the heir, is being cared for. Her sole remaining brother arrives, and they must have known him enough he wasn't his temperamental brother Brandon. And then they fight the uncle of the heir to protect the king/heir inside. What were they gonna do? Raise the king in the tower? 3 men and a baby? Loyal, but not the brightest bulbs around either. (and I'm not argumenting against R+L=J, because I think that's pretty much proven with the circumstantial evidence). I just find the idea of that scene disturbing.

[BearQueen87]

I wasn't blaming them. Still, when I think of it, the whole scene is a bit weird. Lyanna is dying. A baby, the heir, is being cared for. Her sole remaining brother arrives, and they must have known him enough he wasn't his temperamental brother Brandon. And then they fight the uncle of the heir to protect the king/heir inside. What were they gonna do? Raise the king in the tower? 3 men and a baby? Loyal, but not the brightest bulbs around either.

The Uncle is also the best friend of the guy who just crowned himself king of Westeros. They can't take the chance that Ned isn't going to listen to what they have to say. He may not have been tempermental like Brandon, but their duty is to protect the King at all costs. What if Ned wanted to take the baby? What if Ned wanted to tell Robert and plead for mercy for Jon? Too many factors for the KG. And the 3KG would have done what JonCon and fAegon are doing, go into hiding and return when the time is right.

[stateofdissipation]

The last sounds like circular reasoning, hehe.

But with the assumption she died after giving birth, and had a fever, then childbed fever seems a likely candidate. It used to be called the doctor's plague, because doctors didn't wash their hands while assisting women giving birth. And one of the common ways to contract it is through the staphylococci that inhabitat the skin and pimples or the anaerobe ones that originate from bacteria in the cervical or vagina and develops after trauma (childbirth is a type of physical trauma for the mother), especially after long arduous labour, in unhygienic circumstances and unskilled delivery. It can include bleeding and lead to sepsis (blood poisoning).

As for how many days it takes to die from it: it is usually contracted within the first three days after giving birth and progresses rapidly. The 10 days is a fever measurement time period, not a time of how long it takes to die. The mother is monitored for having a fever of more than 24hrs in the first 10 days.

The last sounds like circular reasoning, hehe.

It is completely linear.... and quotable.

"I was with her when she died." Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and father." He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried in that room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been as faint as a whisper, but when he had given his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They found him still holding her body. Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his, Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was... fond of flowers."--aGoT page 40 paperback.

in that room that smelled of blood and roses... the fever had taken her strength...

But with the assumption she died after giving birth, and had a fever, then childbed fever seems a likely candidate.

If you would like to assert that Ned covered 1300 miles at fifty miles a day and news traveled 950 miles between 7/6ths and 7/5ths Ned's speed... then child-bed fever is the likely candidate.

Ned went Trident to KL to SE to ToJ....News went Trident to KL to ToJ...

It used to be called the doctor's plague, because doctors didn't wash their hands while assisting women giving birth.

Oddly enough it was common in the 1700's (18th century) It is pretty modern.

And one of the common ways to contract it is through the staphylococci that inhabitat the skin and pimples or the anaerobe ones that originate from bacteria in the cervical or vagina and develops after trauma (childbirth is a type of physical trauma for the mother), especially after long arduous labour, in unhygienic circumstances and unskilled delivery. It can include bleeding and lead to sepsis (blood poisoning).

Lovely explanations and they have been covered.

As for how many days it takes to die from it: it is usually contracted within the first three days after giving birth and progresses rapidly. The 10 days is a fever measurement time period, not a time of how long it takes to die. The mother is monitored for having a fever of more than 24hrs in the first 10 days.

If the fever is only in the first 10 days...and Lyanna had a fever... she had given birth within the 10 days before Ned arrived.

Ned remembers Lyanna in childbirth....

Promise me, she had cried in that room that smelled of blood and roses. --aGoT page 40 paperback.

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409 paperback.

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. .---aGoT page 410 paperback

Promise me Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood.--aGoT page 608 paperback.

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650 paperback.

The reason to ignore that is the same reason why quoting only the first line of Selmy's thoughts (the first duty of the kingsguard) on the kingsguard and completely ignoring the last line---,

If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, I would have no choice but to obey.---Selmy aDwD page 858

[Consigliere]

I wasn't blaming them. Still, when I think of it, the whole scene is a bit weird. Lyanna is dying. A baby, the heir, is being cared for. Her sole remaining brother arrives, and they must have known him enough he wasn't his temperamental brother Brandon. And then they fight the uncle of the heir to protect the king/heir inside. What were they gonna do? Raise the king in the tower? 3 men and a baby? Loyal, but not the brightest bulbs around either. (and I'm not argumenting against R+L=J, because I think that's pretty much proven with the circumstantial evidence)

There isn't anything to suggest that they knew Ned all that well. The "honour of Ned Stark" as we know it at the start of the series was probably not all that well known back then. All the KG would have known was that Ned was one of the leaders of the rebellion that usurped the Targaryen dynasty. The KG also appear to be aware of the Sack of KL and thus would be aware of the deaths of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys. There was really no way for them to know where Ned's loyalties lay and Ned was not alone when he arrived at the ToJ.

[sweetsunray]

There isn't anything to suggest that they knew Ned all that well. The "honour of Ned Stark" as we know it at the start of the series was probably not all that well known back then. All the KG would have known was that Ned was one of the leaders of the rebellion that usurped the Targaryen dynasty. The KG also appear to be aware of the Sack of KL and thus would be aware of the deaths of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys. There was really no way for them to know where Ned's loyalties lay and Ned was not alone when he arrived at the ToJ.

That's what I'm telling myself as well, certainly knowing what had happened to Rhaegar's other 2 children. Still, I'm left wondering what the 3 KG would have done after Lyanna's death and if say Ned and his men had payed with their lives. What was their plan? Of course there's no answer to that. But I'm curious after it. Baby Jon can't give them orders. They only have their last command: protect the child. So, they would have to think for themselves for a long while, before Jon is old enough.

[stateofdissipation]

There isn't anything to suggest that they knew Ned all that well. The "honour of Ned Stark" as we know it at the start of the series was probably not all that well known back then. All the KG would have known was that Ned was one of the leaders of the rebellion that usurped the Targaryen dynasty. The KG also appear to be aware of the Sack of KL and thus would be aware of the deaths of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys. There was really no way for them to know where Ned's loyalties lay and Ned was not alone when he arrived at the ToJ.

There isn't anything to suggest that they knew Ned all that well. The "honour of Ned Stark" as we know it at the start of the series was probably not all that well known back then. All the KG would have known was that Ned was one of the leaders of the rebellion that usurped the Targaryen dynasty.

They knew house Stark. They knew what they had done...

Check your kingsguard quotes again they were sworn to the King not the house.

Instead , they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys' pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard had to do to prove himself innocent was... well, not burn.--aCoK 721

When the fire was blazing Brandon was brought in. His hands were chained behind his back, and around his neck was a wet leathern cord attached to a device the king had brought from Tyrosh. His legs were free though and his longsword was set down just out of his reach--aCoK 721

Next he would start to cook, Aerys promised... unless his son could free him. The more he struggled, the tighter the cord consrticted around his throat. In the end, he strangled himself.--aCoK 721

"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."--Jamie Lannister-aCoK 721

The KG also appear to be aware of the Sack of KL and thus would be aware of the deaths of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys.

They appear to be... by adding exactly nothing to the conversation....

The best that can be said is that they show no reaction to the news. The only thing they add is that Ser Willem is a good man and true.

There was really no way for them to know where Ned's loyalties lay and Ned was not alone when he arrived at the ToJ.

So the kingsguard had gone rogue. They were not bound to old orders or seeking out new ones. They made up their job and set out to do it.

[Consigliere]

That's what I'm telling myself as well, certainly knowing what had happened to Rhaegar's other 2 children. Still, I'm left wondering what the 3 KG would have done after Lyanna's death and if say Ned and his men had payed with their lives. What was their plan? Of course there's no answer to that. But I'm curious after it. Baby Jon can't give them orders. They only have their last command: protect the child. So, they would have to think for themselves for a long while, before Jon is old enough.

Yeah there's really no way to conclusively say what their long term plans were. Supposing they did defeat Ned and his small force, I'd say that their #1 priority would be to get Jon to safety. Either to Essos or somewhere in Westeros where there was still Targaryen support (Dorne perhaps). After that; try and rouse support for their cause. We know from AGoT, according to Robert, that there were still people who called him Usurper even 15 years later. Should they have succeeded a perfect time to make their move would have been during the Greyjoy Rebellion while Roberts forces (including Stark, Tully and Lannister) were concentrated elsewhere.

[Consigliere]

<snip>

As usual your post makes little to no sense.

[sweetsunray]

The last sounds like circular reasoning, hehe.

It is completely linear.... and quotable.

Circular reasoning is basically beginning an argument and ending with it. For example "Paris is in France, therefore Paris is in France." Of course that doesn't invalidate the statement: because Paris IS in France. I'm not disagreeing with the evidence and the obvious conclusion.Just making an observation on the way it was worded, without even meaning to offend.

If you would like to assert that Ned covered 1300 miles at fifty miles a day and news traveled 950 miles between 7/6ths and 7/5ths Ned's speed... then child-bed fever is the likely candidate.

Ned went Trident to KL to SE to ToJ....News went Trident to KL to ToJ...

It's a reasonable conclusion, and a good argument, yes.

Oddly enough it was common in the 1700's (18th century) It is pretty modern.

Yes, the most famous examples of earlier times are Elizabeth of York (the York daughter who married the Tudor winner to finally establish peace and put an end to the War of the Roses) and mother of Henry VIII (who set aside several women in order to get a male heir); Jane Seymour, Henry VIII's wife after the birth of his only son. But it was still common in the 18th century. Mary Shelley's mother died of it close to the turn of the 19th century. Not sure, but I think Princess Charlotte's death in 1817 might have been attributed to it as well, although in her case it was sudden,severe and she died a day after giving birth. Her widowed husband later became the first king of my country, Belgium. Tools and hygiene rules surrounding birthing changed after her death. And the invention of antibiotics helped to deal with the women who contracted it.

If the fever is only in the first 10 days...and Lyanna had a fever... she had given birth within the 10 days before Ned arrived.

After birthing of the placenta, the womb is basically one giant inner open wound. And I assume that is the max amount of time for the womb to heal and seal against bacteria again. So, yes, Jon wouldn't have been older than 10 days if it was childbed fever. Anywhere between 3-10 days I think. Because the actual onset occurs in the first 3 days. In rather ideal birthing circumstances and with sick care, a woman lasted about a week after onset, like Jane Seymour (they just didn't have any antibiotics at the time). But if the labour was long, streneous and involved lots of blood loss, the woman would already be greatly weakened without adding the childbed fever on top of it. And then it can go all quite quickly, especially if sepsis sets in. Sepsis shock can even occur within hours, even in modern hospitals. A reasonable assumption would be about a week old imo.