R+L=J v.94

[stateofdissipation]

As usual your post makes little to no sense.

OK simplify Consigliere, Text, ASOD

There isn't anything to suggest that they knew Ned all that well. The "honour of Ned Stark" as we know it at the start of the series was probably not all that well known back then. All the KG would have known was that Ned was one of the leaders of the rebellion that usurped the Targaryen dynasty.

They knew house Stark. They knew what they had done...

Check your kingsguard quotes again they were sworn to the King not the house.

Instead , they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys' pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard had to do to prove himself innocent was... well, not burn.--aCoK 721

When the fire was blazing Brandon was brought in. His hands were chained behind his back, and around his neck was a wet leathern cord attached to a device the king had brought from Tyrosh. His legs were free though and his longsword was set down just out of his reach--aCoK 721

Next he would start to cook, Aerys promised... unless his son could free him. The more he struggled, the tighter the cord consrticted around his throat. In the end, he strangled himself.--aCoK 721

"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."--Jamie Lannister-aCoK 721

There isn't anything to suggest that they knew Ned all that well. The "honour of Ned Stark" as we know it at the start of the series was probably not all that well known back then.

All the KG would have known was that Ned was one of the leaders of the rebellion that usurped the Targaryen dynasty.

The cited text shows that the KG knew exactly what brought Ned to their doorstep. Hightower was present at the murders of Brandon and Rickard.

So all the KG knew by the end of the conversation was that Ned had avenged the murders of his brother and father

As Hightower was present for the trial of Rickard and Brandon, the KG were aware that house stark thought Lyanna had been abducted. They knew Ned was attempting to rescue his sister-

The KG also appear to be aware of the Sack of KL and thus would be aware of the deaths of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys.

They appear to be... by adding exactly nothing to the conversation....

The best that can be said is that they show no reaction to the news. The only thing they add is that Ser Willem is a good man and true.

The KG do not appear to be aware of anything. Ned makes statements. The KG respond to them. Ned brings them news and they repeat it back to him.

Except,--the comment on Ser Willem... Ned did not mention that he "is a good man and true."

There was really no way for them to know where Ned's loyalties lay and Ned was not alone when he arrived at the ToJ.

So the kingsguard had gone rogue. They were not bound to old orders or seeking out new ones. They made up their job and set out to do it.

The kingsguard at the ToJ, in your scenario are not answering to anybody. You assert that they would not be following dead men's orders. You fail to assert where the orders originate.

It appears that you have them giving orders to themselves....gone rogue

[sj4iy]

How funny would be if at some point, both Robert and Cersei screamed "RHAEGAR!!!!" at the same time during sex...

..awkward...

Okay, I am LMAO at this XD

[Alia of the knife]

Speaking of births and death, I've been doing some random rereading to figure out some things about Rhaegar, something that came to my mind in a previous thread (can't remember if it is a RLJ thread) about what he and Elia felt for each other and how his relationship with Lyanna affected her. We often thing about Lyanna and Elia when we mention R but we're forgetting another important lady: his mom.

I know many people think Rhaegar was "obsessed" with the prophecy, but I don't think that's true. For a man being "obsessed" about that, few people knew about such obsession. To give an example, my boss knew about my passion for Glee (yes, I'm not ashamed!) because I often twitted about how great it was (I do believe that, k?). The only one knowing about that, that we know about, was Aemon who was a relative of him and he was an educated man who could have helped. The rest of people didn't know, not even Barristan who knew that Rhaegar decided to learn how to fight, but didn't know the reason. Even as a child, Rhaegar seemed to have been a reserved private person. I suppose the only people knowing about the prophecy were Aemon, Elia and Arthur. And possibly Lyanna. Many even claim that all of his actions were because of the prophecy, but to me, he looked like a complete rational functional person, not at all "obsessed", except when it was needed to make some observations and decisions about it. I definitely don't believe that Rhaegar went to pee thinking about the prophecy, and that's why many weren't aware of that part of his life.

Nevertheless, it was an important part of his life, so, during the two last years of his life, I guess that Rhaegar had two main priorities:

1. The prophecy

2. Aerys being mad.

The "obsession" factor is something I question as well. And to your point, people at my work place know that my cat is my fur baby, and I hate dolls, and muppets, so any "gag" gift will be something to do with cats, or a hideous doll just because people in close proximity do get to know you, with the notable exceptions of the honest-to-god psychopaths who hide their behaviors with frightening ability.

(And that isn't to say that visions and prophesy don't figure into it, but as a Targaryen, visions and prophesy seem to be as natural to them as greatness or madness).

But, usually an obsession is pretty apparent, especially in the intimate cradle of court life where there are almost no secrets as its the business of everyone to know someones secrets, particularly the king and his family.

They were the "reality" show before there were reality shows.

Yet no one really comments or remarks about any "obsessive" behavior coming from Rhaegar, and in fact, as it is often pointed out, he known for his honorable behavior, and rather measured approach to life,

And the thing that Kevan Lannister remembers most is that had Aerys married Cersei to Rhaegar, she could have given him all the sons he wanted, so it seems to me that might have been an open concern.

He also remembers Lyanna in conjunction with this, though with typical Lannister arrogance, thinks Rhaegar wouldn't have gone if he'd married Cersei, and Selmy remembers "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it," which is a pretty definitive statement, and I'm not sure one would need to be an insider to know that

Prophesy from a metaphysical standpoint could have been a factor in the way it related to the continued success of the Targaryen dynasty in terms of trying to save his family from the downward slope and ruination caused by Aerys madness and excesses.

I imagine he was politically astute enough to sense the growing restlessness of some of the nobles, and without dragons, it could be harder to hold on to their dynasty.

I kind of imagine it a little like "The Wizard of Oz," where the curtain is pulled back and the great and powerful Oz is exposed for a mere man, or any culture where the "godlike" are finally revealed to be quite human.

Couple that with the very tangible and pragmatic struggle to keep the line of succession going, in which case Elias health would figure very prominently, because in her position, her one one main primary duty is to bring forth strong heirs to the throne.

But, historically speaking, even kings "could not do just as they pleased," but had to consider their people and nobles, and to alienate your barons, though you might wear a crown was not a smart thing to do. Even King John was brought to heel by the Magna Carta, or the Great Charter of the Liberties of England, a document imposed upon the king by his barons to limit his powers and protect their rights.

I think its fair to say that Aerys was straining any existing rights of his barons with his excesses and treatment of them. While the other lords may not have necessarily been in Lord Starks corner, Aerys extreme reaction did not help, because while Brandon should not have threatened the Princes life, he was within his legal right to challenge even Rhaegar. I think most understood that with Aerys, even if Brandon had merely challenged Rhaegar, it wouldn't have made a difference in his fate.

As for Rhaegar, while his behavior was uncharacteristic, in time, they still would have forgiven him for his lady Lyanna and his conflicts of the heart, particularly if he did the right thing by her, but it was the full manifestation of Aerys madness that was the tipping point, and one that Rhaegar came around to too late, at least according to Connington, because perhaps there had been love between Rhaegar and Aerys at one time when Aerys was more sane, so not wanting to come to terms with his madness may have been one of the factors that propelled Rhaegar into seclusion, books, and denial.

Martin is supposed to eventually flesh out the relationship between Rhaegar and Aerys, and like Elia, its likely complicated.

[Ser Leftwich]

On Rhaegar and prophecy:

Prophecy was thrust upon him. He was the product of Aegon V forcing his parents to get married (IIRC, there had not been an king directly from incestuous marriage for a few years) and then born at the same time of a horrific fire/event that killed many members of the family, etc.

Can you imagine growing up with that kind of outside pressure? 'Oh, great King Aegon V died and now somebody has to be the PtwP? WEEEELLLLLL, we're waiting!'

[stateofdissipation]

Circular reasoning is basically beginning an argument and ending with it. For example "Paris is in France, therefore Paris is in France." Of course that doesn't invalidate the statement: because Paris IS in France. I'm not disagreeing with the evidence and the obvious conclusion.Just making an observation on the way it was worded, without even meaning to offend.

It's a reasonable conclusion, and a good argument, yes.

Yes, the most famous examples of earlier times are Elizabeth of York (the York daughter who married the Tudor winner to finally establish peace and put an end to the War of the Roses) and mother of Henry VIII (who set aside several women in order to get a male heir); Jane Seymour, Henry VIII's wife after the birth of his only son. But it was still common in the 18th century. Mary Shelley's mother died of it close to the turn of the 19th century. Not sure, but I think Princess Charlotte's death in 1817 might have been attributed to it as well, although in her case it was sudden,severe and she died a day after giving birth. Her widowed husband later became the first king of my country, Belgium. Tools and hygiene rules surrounding birthing changed after her death. And the invention of antibiotics helped to deal with the women who contracted it.

After birthing of the placenta, the womb is basically one giant inner open wound. And I assume that is the max amount of time for the womb to heal and seal against bacteria again. So, yes, Jon wouldn't have been older than 10 days if it was childbed fever. Anywhere between 3-10 days I think. Because the actual onset occurs in the first 3 days. In rather ideal birthing circumstances and with sick care, a woman lasted about a week after onset, like Jane Seymour (they just didn't have any antibiotics at the time). But if the labour was long, streneous and involved lots of blood loss, the woman would already be greatly weakened without adding the childbed fever on top of it. And then it can go all quite quickly, especially if sepsis sets in. Sepsis shock can even occur within hours, even in modern hospitals. A reasonable assumption would be about a week old imo.

Circular reasoning is basically beginning an argument and ending with it. For example "Paris is in France, therefore Paris is in France." Of course that doesn't invalidate the statement: because Paris IS in France. I'm not disagreeing with the evidence and the obvious conclusion.Just making an observation on the way it was worded, without even meaning to offend.

It may be a form of argument from definition. But unless I change the definition or use it selectively it is not a fallacy.

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as paradoxical thinking or circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.--- that does not seem to fit..

If you were to assert "Paris is in Iceland"...my assertion that "Paris is in France" is both the beginning and the end of my reasoning. If I needed to pull out a map or a globe to make that point it would not be circular. If I had to drive there... I could do it in about 5 hours...

Yes my repetition is redundant. However, the reasoning is that Paris is in France...NOT Iceland.

--I am not easily offended... I

I actually took a leap there... I asserted "bed of blood" and "bloody bed" refer to childbirth.--- I did not include the "bring short lived children into the world in beds of blood and pain" as a quote because I was too lazy to get the page number and I think the case is made well enough in aGoT.--- I presented that with the citation that was the source of my assertion.

On a side note----without KG present--- there is no question about Ned finding Lyanna in childbirth and her dying shortly after giving birth. One does not question the other euphemisms. Rather, one blindly accepts them. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less." --Alice in Wonderland.

There is no reason to choose a different meaning for "bed of blood"

--By-the-by bleeding of up to 1000 ml (a big gulp) is considered normal. Post partum bleeding is in the range of 60 to 80 ml (1.2 8hour energy shots). is normal. Anything over 100 ml is considered a hemorrhage.--We could go in to how long it would take to bleed out at 100 ml per day.. but that depends on body weight and a few other factors.

If you would like to assert that Ned covered 1300 miles at fifty miles a day and news traveled 950 miles between 7/6ths and 7/5ths Ned's speed... then child-bed fever is the likely candidate.

Ned went Trident to KL to SE to ToJ....News went Trident to KL to ToJ...

It's a reasonable conclusion, and a good argument, yes.

Pony express riders made 75 miles a day but not on one horse. A good horse will get 40 miles per day. .Armies of the time move at 18 to 20 miles a day (ut28 miles a day was a historic achievement.) Ned was with an army for 700 of the 1300 miles. For the entire trip he had to average greater than 50 miles a day... News had to make 58.3 to 70 miles a day.

It is a horrible argument. as an attempt to prove the KG mean king present.

A reasonable assumption would be about a week old imo.

Childbed fever is completely reasonable a week is a reasonable assumption.

Lyanna died a week after Ned found her in childbirth,

Lyanna's death happened after the showdown is in the text. Lyanna died immediately after the showdown is not in the text.

It is just like Rossart was hand of the king after Chelsted and was hand for two weeks. That means an army can cover 700 miles in less than two weeks. Tens of thousands of walkers and the wagons supporting them made 5 miles an hour 10 hours a day (1 mile every 12 minutes) for 7 days. However, if Rossart was made hand the day Chelsted died, the Army had to make it 87 miles a day.

---The distances Robert and Ned went during the rebellion and the time it took them to make it has them on pace for an overall 12 miles a day.(considering they spent most of it travelling with an army it is reasonable) --- So maybe Rossart was made hand when they heard about the defeat on Trident, (After that what difference would having a pyromancer for a hand make anyway).

[BearQueen87]

On Rhaegar and prophecy:

Prophecy was thrust upon him. He was the product of Aegon V forcing his parents to get married (IIRC, there had not been an king directly from incestuous marriage for a few years) and then born at the same time of a horrific fire/event that killed many members of the family, etc.

Can you imagine growing up with that kind of outside pressure? 'Oh, great King Aegon V died and now somebody has to be the PtwP? WEEEELLLLLL, we're waiting!'

It was Jaehaerys II, but yes...J2 forced Aerys and Rhaella to marry because of the woods witch's prophecy that said TPTWP would be born of that line. Rhaegar certainly did not ask for it and I think he carried the burden of being chosen.

As to how much everyone around R knew, I'm not sure either. He confided in Aemon, and I think he confided in Elia (at least if Dany's HotU vision has some truth to it). And I think he told Lyanna as well. But what about Aerys? Did he know about his son's prophetic leanings? JonCon? Dayne and Whent?

[Ser Leftwich]

It was Jaehaerys II, but yes...J2 forced Aerys and Rhaella to marry because of the woods witch's prophecy that said TPTWP would be born of that line. Rhaegar certainly did not ask for it and I think he carried the burden of being chosen.

I always thought it was Aegon V, not Jaeherys. Aegon was king after all, and the patriarch of the Targaryen's. That it would fall to him to make marriage arrangements for all his family, (see Lord Walder Frey). But does it matter?

[BearQueen87]

I always thought it was Aegon V, not Jaeherys. Aegon was king after all, and the patriarch of the Targaryen's. That it would fall to him to make marriage arrangements for all his family, (see Lord Walder Frey). But does it matter?

It doesn't matter, but Selmy tells Dany in ADWD that it was Jaehaerys II who commanded Aerys and Rhaella to marry, having been influenced by the woods witch at Summerhall.

But yeah, on the whole...doesn't matter. Rhaegar more or less had the prophecy forced on him before he was even born. And when he died the day of Summerhall, everything seemed to point to him and he took it up rather sadly.

[ArabellaVidal]

Circular reasoning is basically beginning an argument and ending with it. For example "Paris is in France, therefore Paris is in France." Of course that doesn't invalidate the statement: because Paris IS in France. I'm not disagreeing with the evidence and the obvious conclusion.Just making an observation on the way it was worded, without even meaning to offend.

R

I actually took a leap there... I asserted "bed of blood" and "bloody bed" refer to childbirth.--- I did not include the "bring short lived children into the world in beds of blood and pain" as a quote because I was too lazy to get the page number and I think the case is made well enough in aGoT.--- I presented that with the citation that was the source of my assertion.

On a side note----without KG present--- there is no question about Ned finding Lyanna in childbirth and her dying shortly after giving birth. One does not question the other euphemisms. Rather, one blindly accepts them. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less." --Alice in Wonderland.

There is no reason to choose a different meaning for "bed of blood"

--By-the-by bleeding of up to 1000 ml (a big gulp) is considered normal. Post partum bleeding is in the range of 60 to 80 ml (1.2 8hour energy shots). is normal. Anything over 100 ml is considered a hemorrhage.--We could go in to how long it would take to bleed out at 100 ml per day.. but that depends on body weight and a few other factors.

It's a reasonable conclusion, and a good argument, yes.

Pony express riders made 75 miles a day but not on one horse. A good horse will get 40 miles per day. .Armies of the time move at 18 to 20 miles a day (ut28 miles a day was a historic achievement.) Ned was with an army for 700 of the 1300 miles. For the entire trip he had to average greater than 50 miles a day... News had to make 58.3 to 70 miles a day.

It is a horrible argument. as an attempt to prove the KG mean king present.

A reasonable assumption would be about a week old imo.

Childbed fever is completely reasonable a week is a reasonable assumption.

Lyanna died a week after Ned found her in childbirth,

Lyanna's death happened after the showdown is in the text. Lyanna died immediately after the showdown is not in the text.

It is just like Rossart was hand of the king after Chelsted and was hand for two weeks. That means an army can cover 700 miles in less than two weeks. Tens of thousands of walkers and the wagons supporting them made 5 miles an hour 10 hours a day (1 mile every 12 minutes) for 7 days. However, if Rossart was made hand the day Chelsted died, the Army had to make it 87 miles a day.

---The distances Robert and Ned went during the rebellion and the time it took them to make it has them on pace for an overall 12 miles a day.(considering they spent most of it travelling with an army it is reasonable) --- So maybe Rossart was made hand when they heard about the defeat on Trident, (After that what difference would having a pyromancer for a hand make anyway).

So it's really up in the air without further information. If she died of the childbed fever that means,

1. The battle between Ned and the KG lasted several days.

2. Ned spent several days by her bed.

3. He and Howland spent the days after the birth while Lyanna had the fever digging graves and burying bodies.

Hmmmm.

[BearQueen87]

So it's really up in the air without further information. If she died of the childbed fever that means,

1. The battle between Ned and the KG lasted several days.

2. Ned spent several days by her bed.

3. He and Howland spent the days after the birth while Lyanna had the fever digging graves and burying bodies.

Hmmmm.

Remember that GRRM himself has said that he fudges with time and distances and if people notices errors, he doesn't want them pointing them out to him. I think he left Ned's journey from KL to SE to ToJ vague and more open for the reason that he'll need to stretch our disbelief a bit when we get the full story. It's tight but for the KG to say what they are saying to Ned in the ToJ dream then Jon must be already born. It's all wrapped up in the idea that the KG have a King that they have bent the knee to and they must defend that King. Trying to put it mathematically is only going to cause headaches because GRRM didn't calculate every mile that it took Ned to get to the ToJ. The room smelling like blood, plus the fever that takes her life suggests that puerperal fever was the cause of death.

[stateofdissipation]

So it's really up in the air without further information. If she died of the childbed fever that means,

1. The battle between Ned and the KG lasted several days.

2. Ned spent several days by her bed.

3. He and Howland spent the days after the birth while Lyanna had the fever digging graves and burying bodies.

Hmmmm.

If you are in the mood for making things up those go just as well....

If one wishes to say an hour or a month after... it is all the same.... one is making it up.

death happened after the showdown.

Showdown--- aGoT page 409-410 paperback

----in between is what you want to make up----

Death----------aGoT page 40 paperback

[Lonin]

It doesn't matter, but Selmy tells Dany in ADWD that it was Jaehaerys II who commanded Aerys and Rhaella to marry, having been influenced by the woods witch at Summerhall.

But yeah, on the whole...doesn't matter. Rhaegar more or less had the prophecy forced on him before he was even born. And when he died the day of Summerhall, everything seemed to point to him and he took it up rather sadly.

I always found Barristan's quote "interesting"

“Why did they wed if they did not love each other?” “Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line.” “A woods witch?” Dany was astonished.

Martin, George R.R. (2011-07-12). A Dance with Dragons: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Five (p. 300). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

grrm seems to use grandfather and grandsire interchangeably - and uses both words a lot. They are interchangeable but grandsire does have archaic definition of forefather. I spent far to much time trying to figure out a "hidden" meaning for when grandsire was used.

[sweetsunray]

Jon needn't have born yet, before Raegar left, before he died, or before the Mad King died. There was an heir going to be born, when Rhaegar left. Leaving Lyanna with an extra heir coming, especially the third head Rhaegar wanted, would be reason enough for 3 KG to remain at an isolated tower with no other protection. The king and Elia had a whole city and gold cloaks. Rheager died, KL was sacked, Aegon and Rhaenys dead too. Ned goes in search for the ToJ. They are with several, so that makes moving slower, nor have they any knowledge of Lyanna's pregnancy. ToJ may not have had ravens, but lone messengers on horseback, who switched horses at inns along the road would be an alternative system used. Such a system has been in use even in ancient times, and I don't see any reason why Westeros wouldn't have it. Another alternative is a messenger traveling a large part by sea, with some smuggler (hmmm, Davos or one of the pirates might know something along that line). The messenger arrives earlier than Ned and inform the KG that they're all dead, except Viserys. Maybe Lyanna has already given birth, or labour starts upon hearing the news after the shock of it all. The last remaining son of the heir to the throne is born. Viserys comes second in line. The KG kneel before the new born, whom they count as their king. Ned arrives. They fight to the death. He finds Lyanna and her son. She dies soon after or takes several more days and makes him promise to protect her son.

[BearQueen87]

Jon needn't have born yet, before Raegar left, before he died, or before the Mad King died. There was an heir going to be born, when Rhaegar left. Leaving Lyanna with an extra heir coming, especially the third head Rhaegar wanted, would be reason enough for 3 KG to remain at an isolated tower with no other protection. The king and Elia had a whole city and gold cloaks. Rheager died, KL was sacked, Aegon and Rhaenys dead too. Ned goes in search for the ToJ. They are with several, so that makes moving slower, nor have they any knowledge of Lyanna's pregnancy. ToJ may not have had ravens, but lone messengers on horseback, who switched horses at inns along the road would be an alternative system used. Such a system has been in use even in ancient times, and I don't see any reason why Westeros wouldn't have it. Another alternative is a messenger traveling a large part by sea, with some smuggler (hmmm, Davos or one of the pirates might know something along that line). The messenger arrives earlier than Ned and inform the KG that they're all dead, except Viserys. Maybe Lyanna has already given birth, or labour starts upon hearing the news after the shock of it all. The last remaining son of the heir to the throne is born. Viserys comes second in line. The KG kneel before the new born, whom they count as their king. Ned arrives. They fight to the death. He finds Lyanna and her son. She dies soon after or takes several more days and makes him promise to protect her son.

If Jon wasn't born by the time Ned arrived, then one of the KG would have been honor bound to go to Viserys and protect him as he was Rhaegar's heir after Aegon died (but before Jon was born). Hightower would have gone, certainly. But the fact that they were all there, thumping their chest about how KG they were, to me, shows that Jon was born when Ned arrived. I think the 3KG hear about Rheagar, Aerys, and Aegon all around the same time; Jon was already born when they did hear because not one of them went to Dragonstone and like I said if there was ever a small moment when Viserys was the Targaryen king, Hightower would have booked it to him.

[stateofdissipation]

Remember that GRRM himself has said that he fudges with time and distances and if people notices errors, he doesn't want them pointing them out to him. I think he left Ned's journey from KL to SE to ToJ vague and more open for the reason that he'll need to stretch our disbelief a bit when we get the full story. It's tight but for the KG to say what they are saying to Ned in the ToJ dream then Jon must be already born. It's all wrapped up in the idea that the KG have a King that they have bent the knee to and they must defend that King. Trying to put it mathematically is only going to cause headaches because GRRM didn't calculate every mile that it took Ned to get to the ToJ. The room smelling like blood, plus the fever that takes her life suggests that puerperal fever was the cause of death.

Remember that GRRM himself has said that he fudges with time and distances and if people notices errors, he doesn't want them pointing them out to him.

The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing.--GRRM

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_and_Distances

It's tight but for the KG to say what they are saying to Ned in the ToJ dream then Jon must be already born.

New information added by the kingsguard anounts to.....zero

Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent were ordered by Rhaegar to stand guard at the 'tower of joy' near Dorne. All three died there (I: 354-35)---ssm

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

The first duty of the kingsguard....

If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, I would have no choice but to obey.---Selmy aDwD page 858

It's all wrapped up in the idea that the KG have a King that they have bent the knee to and they must defend that King.

Though court protocol suggests many must bend the knee when the king or queen enter a place, the Kingsguard do not do so, standing guard as is their duty (IV: 349)

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

Trying to put it mathematically is only going to cause headaches because GRRM didn't calculate every mile that it took Ned to get to the ToJ.

Trying to calculate GRRM does not work... because he is not specific. The KG means king conjecture must be very specific... A good clue tat GRRM would never touch it.

The room smelling like blood and Lyanna in her bed of blood, plus the fever that takes her life strength suggests that puerperal fever was the cause of death.

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409 paperback.

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. .---aGoT page 410 paperback

------------------"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650 paperback------------------------------------------------

---unless you specify the time between these two---

"I was with her when she died." Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and father." He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried in that room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been as faint as a whisper, but when he had given his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They found him still holding her body. Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his, Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was... fond of flowers."--aGoT page 40 paperback.

you have established a cause but not a time of death.

Lyanna died of the fever the day Ned arrived having given birth 9 days before if Ned made 50 miles a day from the trident to KL to SE to ToJ....1300 miles... The news made between 58.3 and 70 miles a day from thrident to KL to ToJ.... 950 miles.

If one wishes to cut down the days one needs to increase speed... The specifics required are a glaring hole in the fever conjecture....

The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing.--GRRM

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_and_Distances

[Jon Weirgaryen]

If Jon wasn't born by the time Ned arrived, then one of the KG would have been honor bound to go to Viserys and protect him as he was Rhaegar's heir ... Hightower would have gone, certainly.

While I completely agree with nearly all you are saying here, this is Ser Gerold Hightower speaking:

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

AGoT 39 Eddard X (markup by me)

So I am just a bit doubtful of that bit. You may still be right if 1 and not 2 is the meaning of flee here:

flee:

1. desert your duty to your true king

leave the realm

I have had the habit of reading it as the second meaning. It looks obvious. Now I foster doubts, because the first makes more sense, although it has the less obvious feel to me.

[BearQueen87]

While I completely agree with nearly all you are saying here, this is Ser Gerold Hightower speaking:

AGoT 39 Eddard X (markup by me)

So I am just a bit doubtful of that bit. You may still be right if 1 and not 2 is the meaning of flee here:

flee:

1. desert your duty to your true king

leave the realm

I have had the habit of reading it as the second meaning. It looks obvious. Now I foster doubts, because the first makes more sense, although it has the less obvious feel to me.

But why doesn't the KG flee? Because Viserys isn't their king, baby Jon is. They will not flee from the heir. What comes right before Hightower's quote? Ned asking why they aren't with Viserys on Dragonstone, who currently does not have a KG with him. Ser Wilem can take care of Viserys, even if he's not of the KG. But they, the KG, will not flee because then as now, they swore a vow.

But if there was the slightest chance that when Ned arrives, Jon is not born and therefore not the heir, then yeah, I think Hightower would have booked it to Dragonstone.

[MtnLion]

Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent were ordered by Rhaegar to stand guard at the 'tower of joy' near Dorne. All three died there (I: 354-35)---ssm

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

That is NOT an SSM, that is a reference to the page in AGoT that shows that those three died at the tower, that supports what someone wote.

This is what is actually on the page:

Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent were ordered by Rhaegar to stand guard at the 'tower of joy' near Dorne. All three died there (I: 354-356)

It seems you are having difficulties copying and pasting. Nothing seems to clear up why they were actually at the tower, or why they chose to fight, but it sure seems reasonable that they were at the tower at Rhaegar's request (the king probably had given Whent and Dayne orders to follow Rhaegar's orders as if they were his own). The reason for Hightower's presence can only be because Hightower understood why he needed to be present. (Hightower if he had been sent by Aerys knowing about Lyanna would most certainly be under orders to bring her to the Red Keep.)

The first duty of the kingsguard....

If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, I would have no choice but to obey.---Selmy aDwD page 858

Why are you insering an elipses? Is it simply to misrepresent the quote? You wouldn't do that, now, would you?

From the page you referenced above:

A Kingsguard swears to ward the king with all of his strength and to give his blood for his ruler's (I: 520)

[IceFire125]

It doesn't matter, but Selmy tells Dany in ADWD that it was Jaehaerys II who commanded Aerys and Rhaella to marry, having been influenced by the woods witch at Summerhall.

But yeah, on the whole...doesn't matter. Rhaegar more or less had the prophecy forced on him before he was even born. And when he died the day of Summerhall, everything seemed to point to him and he took it up rather sadly.

I agree, but Rhaegar could have easily woken up that morning and go on with his life not worrying about carrying a sword and becoming a warrior. Rhaegar could've have decided not to give any ounce of care about this so called PTWP prophecy.

Something induced Rhaegar in his frame of mine, multiple times through out his young life.

I'm of the opinion, not only Rhaegar had access of Daenys The Dreamer's scrolls, but maybe a few times, Rhaegar had dragon dreams, and in those dragon (prophetic) dreams Bloodraven was able to access his thoughts and influenced him, guiding him to circumstance, where he was able make sense and reason, where he was able to rationalized what he had to do. We know he entered Jon's dragon dream, it isn't far from the possibility that Bloodraven accessed the dragon dreams of Jon's Father, Rhaegar.

[BearQueen87]

I agree, but Rhaegar could have easily woken up that morning and go on with his life not worrying about carrying a sword and becoming a warrior. Rhaegar could've have decided not to give any ounce of care about this so called PTWP prophecy.

True but taking into account the doom and gloom that followed him from the day of his birth, I don't think Rhaegar had it in him to simply move on. He might have felt that the deaths needed to be justified and if he just up and decided not to pursue TPTWP prophecy then he's not only letting down the universe but then his family's deaths at Summerhall (the salt and smoke potion of his interpretation) was for nothing.

I'm of the opinion, not only Rhaegar had access of Daenys The Dreamer's scrolls, but maybe a few times, Rhaegar had dragon dreams, and in those dragon (prophetic) dreams Bloodraven was able to access his thoughts and influenced him, guiding him to circumstance, where he was able make sense and reason, where he was able to rationalized what he had to do. We know he entered Jon's dragon dream, it isn't far from the possibility, that Bloodraven accessed the dragon dreams of Jon's Father, Rhaegar.

Interesting idea.