Why Jon Con?

[jobmartell]

Griffins roost, also a sick name as stated. Also sick, JC making his AND the remaining soldiers escape while being killed by the stark, Arryn and Tully posse at the sickly named Battle of the Bells. No small feat to retreat a entire troop of soldiers I would assume.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Now we're at JC hate? I for one enjoyed his first back story about the botb.( which is a sick nickname for a battle btw) Then to hear his present story about how and why he's where he is, then the chapter ending with his gs was also a great read. When we get winds and find out how the GC and JC fucked shit up and how they will fuck shit up we'll have JC appreciation threads abound.

I don't think JC is hated, the word is "underrated". I'm not saying he's the most interesting and badass character of them all, but he's definitely not a character I would pass during a reading. While I'm not the kind of person who cries "sexism" during situations, I think that one of the problems people have with JonCon is that he was in love with Rhaegar and it wasn't reciprocal. This situation makes Jon, to some, some kind of pathetic guy begging for Rhaegar's attention and favour while the Prince practically laughed at him along with Arthur Dayne.

Being in love with a man doesn't make you any less than other men (I wouldn't even have to clear that), and he's not different from any other lord in love with some lady. I do agree that he was very naive believing winning the war would grant him Rhaegar's love, because, had he been successful, what was he expecting Rhaegar to do? Make him his lover?* As much, he would have been received glory and the Crown's eternal gratefulness, but that's all. Instead, he would have ended up married with some lady and having children to continue his name, and very unhappy about that while Rhaegar had been kept both Elia and probably Lyanna. So, he's a tragic character from starters.

But I blame that mostly to him being young. In fact, all of them were pretty much "knights of summer" and the Rebellion was their first challenge, which mostly of them failed. And the tragedy of Connington is that he failed because he was actually doing the honourable thing: he also fought valiantly, honourably and bravely and he lost the war.

Now, many people has always wanted more information about the pre-Robellion days but in the side of the Targaryens. Well, we have now a person who not only lived through those years but was actually close to the Prince. We might learn more about Rhaegar, not the prince but the man, and what he actually wanted to do about Aerys and even, the prophecy. Just because Rhaegar confided more in Arthur doesn't mean JonCon didn't learn or hear things.

*now, maybe is me, but that whole scene on the roof of the G'R and Rhaegar's words don't seem a bit... flirty?

[Ruin]

Hope to get more JonCon PoV content in the next book.

[jobmartell]

I don't think JC is hated, the word is "underrated". I'm not saying he's the most interesting and badass character of them all, but he's definitely not a character I would pass during a reading. While I'm not the kind of person who cries "sexism" during situations, I think that one of the problems people have with JonCon is that he was in love with Rhaegar and it wasn't reciprocal. This situation makes Jon, to some, some kind of pathetic guy begging for Rhaegar's attention and favour while the Prince practically laughed at him along with Arthur Dayne.

Being in love with a man doesn't make you any less than other men (I wouldn't even have to clear that), and he's not different from any other lord in love with some lady. I do agree that he was very naive believing winning the war would grant him Rhaegar's love, because, had he been successful, what was he expecting Rhaegar to do? Make him his lover?* As much, he would have been received glory and the Crown's eternal gratefulness, but that's all. Instead, he would have ended up married with some lady and having children to continue his name, and very unhappy about that while Rhaegar had been kept both Elia and probably Lyanna. So, he's a tragic character from starters.

But I blame that mostly to him being young. In fact, all of them were pretty much "knights of summer" and the Rebellion was their first challenge, which mostly of them failed. And the tragedy of Connington is that he failed because he was actually doing the honourable thing: he also fought valiantly, honourably and bravely and he lost the war.

Now, many people has always wanted more information about the pre-Robellion days but in the side of the Targaryens. Well, we have now a person who not only lived through those years but was actually close to the Prince. We might learn more about Rhaegar, not the prince but the man, and what he actually wanted to do about Aerys and even, the prophecy. Just because Rhaegar confided more in Arthur doesn't mean JonCon didn't learn or hear things.

*now, maybe is me, but that whole scene on the roof of the G'R and Rhaegar's words don't seem a bit... flirty?

I agree with what you're saying, 'hate' was the wrong word to use. But, I for one do not want more main/back stories from the Targaryens POV pre RR or any other time. I feel we've had enough for a while. Sure, since we don't know R's pov on really anything, 'your fathers lands are beautiful' etc can be taken as flirty. As much as we know, the 'changes' that R was to make after he got back could of been anything else besides his daddy.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Well, I think JonCon is a bore, and since he's our eyes in Aegon's camp he should be way more interesting. He also had next to zero build-up in previous books. It's like, "oh, so Griff is Jon Connington...wait, who?"

But to be fair, I think Arthur Dayne would have been just as boring. I'm trying to come up with an intriguing figure from Robert's Rebellion to make a surprise appearance and I'm blanking

[Tourney Knight]

I think the character is interesting. I get that the Daynes seem to be the cooler Targaryen loyalists to have around, but Jon is actually doing something to further the Targaryen cause. I also agree, he has been accomplishing much with less troops than all of the other contenders for the throne.

[Kenton Stark]

I don't hate JC at all. I just think he's not as interesting as some other characters would be. As far as hearing from the Targ side of the rebellion, we have Selmy's POV for that. It's just frustrating when you filled with Damphair, JC, Quentin chapters in the books that could be used for other characters that you would rather read. It's similar, but not as bad, as precious air time on the TV show being taken up with Shae or "Smashing Beatles."

I agree that he should have been introduced in feast. But I would love to read a Great John POV.

Manderly, Lady Mormont, Blackfish, Benjen, Randall Tarly, Ashara Dayne, Mabrand, or Bronze Yohn POV.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Better people than him have been fooled by either Varys or LF, tbh. That doesn't make him the worst of them all. He definitely shouldn't underestimating him (he does because he thinks of him as some eunuch with no honour), but I think many people do that in Westeros already, that's why he's getting away with so much.

Hehe, I should have known you'd be here when I opened the thread. I do think, another thing that is interesting with the RedBeard and his thoughts on Varys, especially now that he feels a time clock at his back with the greyscale, is even Varys and the part he played in JonCon's 'supposed' drunken disgrace........seems to be a debt that Connington wants to repay, iirc. So, yeah, Varys did get some use out of him for his plots, but if JonCon's thoughts can be believed (and, I believe), Varys better watch his back if they should ever meet again.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I have to defend his honour. Someone has to =(

#FuckHBO #StopTheGingerHate

#FuckHBO #StopTheGingerHate #StopDiscriminatingAgainstBlueHairDye

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I like Jon Con, and I agree with most comments here, especially the one from his Beard. I feel George should have condensed Feast and Dance in one book, and therefore, present Jon in his Fourth Book. Most of the dislike towards the character (And towards Aegon) is that they appear too late in-books. I'd bet they wouldn't suffer from it had they been presented in Feast. Just cut Arys and Areo, give their POVs to Arianne, cut Aeron and done.

I do think the book split played alot into the reception. I'm lucky in that I read them all in a row a few years ago. In ASOS, we had Jaime giving thought to the Connington situation lots, and even Arya being told about him and Ned and Battle of the Bells on her little visit to Stoney Sept. Then..............nothing, not much, anyway, until Dance.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I don't think JC is hated, the word is "underrated". I'm not saying he's the most interesting and badass character of them all, but he's definitely not a character I would pass during a reading. While I'm not the kind of person who cries "sexism" during situations, I think that one of the problems people have with JonCon is that he was in love with Rhaegar and it wasn't reciprocal. This situation makes Jon, to some, some kind of pathetic guy begging for Rhaegar's attention and favour while the Prince practically laughed at him along with Arthur Dayne.

Being in love with a man doesn't make you any less than other men (I wouldn't even have to clear that), and he's not different from any other lord in love with some lady. I do agree that he was very naive believing winning the war would grant him Rhaegar's love, because, had he been successful, what was he expecting Rhaegar to do? Make him his lover?* As much, he would have been received glory and the Crown's eternal gratefulness, but that's all. Instead, he would have ended up married with some lady and having children to continue his name, and very unhappy about that while Rhaegar had been kept both Elia and probably Lyanna. So, he's a tragic character from starters.

But I blame that mostly to him being young. In fact, all of them were pretty much "knights of summer" and the Rebellion was their first challenge, which mostly of them failed. And the tragedy of Connington is that he failed because he was actually doing the honourable thing: he also fought valiantly, honourably and bravely and he lost the war.

Now, many people has always wanted more information about the pre-Robellion days but in the side of the Targaryens. Well, we have now a person who not only lived through those years but was actually close to the Prince. We might learn more about Rhaegar, not the prince but the man, and what he actually wanted to do about Aerys and even, the prophecy. Just because Rhaegar confided more in Arthur doesn't mean JonCon didn't learn or hear things.

*now, maybe is me, but that whole scene on the roof of the G'R and Rhaegar's words don't seem a bit... flirty?

I'm kind of torn on what exactly JonCon thought he might get from Rhaegar if he had managed to quash the rebellion. Did he think that he'd get Rhaegar's appreciation for it and be seen as a capable friend that he could count on............ie, did he think that, at the least, Rhaegar would see him as the 'best man' in the realm, LOL, or did he think......that such a victory would somehow wake Rhaegar up to the idea that Connington could be 'everything' to him. That's what I'm not certain of, was Connington smart enough to know that it 'seems' the most he could expect from Rhaegar was admiration and friendship and he loved him enough to be happy with that, or did he naively hope for more? I'm hoping the next book will tell us something about this: What result did JonCon hope for.....if he had won the Rebellion single handedly?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Hehe, I should have known you'd be here when I opened the thread.

:D

I do think, another thing that is interesting with the RedBeard and his thoughts on Varys, especially now that he feels a time clock at his back with the greyscale, is even Varys and the part he played in JonCon's 'supposed' drunken disgrace........seems to be a debt that Connington wants to repay, iirc. So, yeah, Varys did get some use out of him for his plots, but if JonCon's thoughts can be believed (and, I believe), Varys better watch his back if they should ever meet again.

If we can take some "foreshadowing" in Jon's chapters I guess there are two main things there:

1. He wants to kill Varys

2. He's going to put Rhaegar's "son" on the throne.

For #2 happening, sadly (sadly for me because I like the kid), Aegon has to die or being unmasked as a fake, which will lead to #1. Very little is mentioned about how JC feels about Aegon besides being a tool of his redemption but considering he raised him for so many years, I suppose he's going to be devastated that Varys' actions not only fooled him but caused his "son" to die in vain.

Even though I do like Aegon and I want him to be real, I guess that JC's words are for Jon Snow, not Aegon, Rhaegar's "real" son. I'm pretty sure they are going to find each other eventually, otherwise, why naming them the same? I doubt it's only to confuse readers. Knowing that Rhaegar's son share his own name is going to melt his heart.

I'm kind of torn on what exactly JonCon thought he might get from Rhaegar if he had managed to quash the rebellion. Did he think that he'd get Rhaegar's appreciation for it and be seen as a capable friend that he could count on............ie, did he think that, at the least, Rhaegar would see him as the 'best man' in the realm, LOL, or did he think......that such a victory would somehow wake Rhaegar up to the idea that Connington could be 'everything' to him. That's what I'm not certain of, was Connington smart enough to know that it 'seems' the most he could expect from Rhaegar was admiration and friendship and he loved him enough to be happy with that, or did he naively hope for more? I'm hoping the next book will tell us something about this: What result did JonCon hope for.....if he had won the Rebellion single handedly?

Jon wanting to be "loved" by Rhaegar is what makes many think he was practically starving for his attention and what has confused readers as to what his real relationship was. For example, he had been Rhaegar's squire, but later, JC remembers, he left his cousin as castellan of the G'R when he left to attend Rhaegar. Him, not his father: he was already a lord and probably a grown man when he left, so, no squire duties for him. Why Rhaegar called him? Maybe, being a Prince, he needed more help than the average knight, maybe he needed someone to carry his big harp around, who knows. But he called Connington, because Connington was someone he could trust. So, it's odd when you consider what exactly JC wanted because I'm sure he knew how the "rules" worked for him and every other man: he needed to get married and have children, and even if he had been a woman, Rhaegar was out of his league. Unless Rhaegar had given him some vibes of being open to be more than a "friend", he was deluding himself.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

:D

If we can take some "foreshadowing" in Jon's chapters I guess there are two main things there:

1. He wants to kill Varys

2. He's going to put Rhaegar's "son" on the throne.

For #2 happening, sadly (sadly for me because I like the kid), Aegon has to die or being unmasked as a fake, which will lead to #1. Very little is mentioned about how JC feels about Aegon besides being a tool of his redemption but considering he raised him for so many years, I suppose he's going to be devastated that Varys' actions not only fooled him but caused his "son" to die in vain.

Even though I do like Aegon and I want him to be real, I guess that JC's words are for Jon Snow, not Aegon, Rhaegar's "real" son. I'm pretty sure they are going to find each other eventually, otherwise, why naming them the same? I doubt it's only to confuse readers. Knowing that Rhaegar's son share his own name is going to melt his heart.

Jon wanting to be "loved" by Rhaegar is what makes many think he was practically starving for his attention and what has confused readers as to what his real relationship was. For example, he had been Rhaegar's squire, but later, JC remembers, he left his cousin as castellan of the G'R when he left to attend Rhaegar. Him, not his father: he was already a lord and probably a grown man when he left, so, no squire duties for him. Why Rhaegar called him? Maybe, being a Prince, he needed more help than the average knight, maybe he needed someone to carry his big harp around, who knows. But he called Connington, because Connington was someone he could trust. So, it's odd when you consider what exactly JC wanted because I'm sure he knew how the "rules" worked for him and every other man: he needed to get married and have children, and even if he had been a woman, Rhaegar was out of his league. Unless Rhaegar had given him some vibes of being open to be more than a "friend", he was deluding himself.

I've seen some spec on the boards that seem to suspect that even JonCon may know that Aegon is a fake, something about one of his last thoughts as he is looking at Aegon, thinking about how the 'boy's' eyes are a different shade than Rhaegar's, something like that. I don't quite buy that idea, it's normal to note differences, along with similarities, between a supposed father and son, but I suppose the word 'boy' is what leads some to that idea. Myself, while we don't get much in the way of thoughts about JC's feelings for Aegon......I think the example of the way he has raised him, along with even Tyrion's observations on the two, do speak to a genuine feeling on Jon's part. It is all tied up with his love for Rhaegar, along with his own honor, though, and I'm not surprised that much of his thoughts go in that direction.

IIRC, it seems that Jon Con is already considering settling a score with Varys for the drunken mummery and lost honor, I can't imagine how he'd react if he should find out that Aegon is fake. I do hope that, at the very least, the idea of raising a decent human being as part of Varys plot does at least.........stay Jon's hand from going totally crazy over the notion. I do wonder on Jon finding out about Jon, LOL........and, I guess that could be bitter sweet. I'd love to hear more of his thoughts on Rhaegar's women, though, they crack me up, none of them being good enough for his Silver Prince.

As far as what JonCon wanted or expected from Rhaegar if he had managed to save the Kingdoms for him, I do have to wonder if even back then...........did or didn't Connington have a specific idea. I agree that Jon knew how things worked and understood that he would and should marry to carry on the family name, legacy, etc. It's hard in some ways to equate the young Connington with the man we have met now, especially since he is now almost gleefully hiding from any political marriage deals thanks to his Greyscale. He does seem almost grateful for that aspect, although.........at least he's not wasting the good wine on it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well, I think JonCon is a bore, and...

http://photos.vanityfair.com/2014/04/03/533da2627686d86f7701137d_got-3-bran-push.gif

I've seen some spec on the boards that seem to suspect that even JonCon may know that Aegon is a fake, something about one of his last thoughts as he is looking at Aegon, thinking about how the 'boy's' eyes are a different shade than Rhaegar's, something like that. I don't quite buy that idea, it's normal to note differences, along with similarities, between a supposed father and son, but I suppose the word 'boy' is what leads some to that idea. Myself, while we don't get much in the way of thoughts about JC's feelings for Aegon......I think the example of the way he has raised him, along with even Tyrion's observations on the two, do speak to a genuine feeling on Jon's part. It is all tied up with his love for Rhaegar, along with his own honor, though, and I'm not surprised that much of his thoughts go in that direction.

I do believe Jon loves Aegon but he's a bit detached from him. I guess it makes sense that he has chosen not to get to involved to people, specially knowing that one day Aegon will be his King and he will serve him as Hand. It's more than simply see your children leave the nest, in his case.

IIRC, it seems that Jon Con is already considering settling a score with Varys for the drunken mummery and lost honor, I can't imagine how he'd react if he should find out that Aegon is fake. I do hope that, at the very least, the idea of raising a decent human being as part of Varys plot does at least.........stay

Jon's hand from going totally crazy over the notion.

If he finds out Aegon isn't real, he is still his son. Or I hope he stills sees him in that way. After all, he's innocent from everything. If he dies before he finds out, it's going to be losing Rhaegar all over again. Varys is doomed either way.

I do wonder on Jon finding out about Jon, LOL........and, I guess that could be bitter sweet. I'd love to hear more of his thoughts on Rhaegar's women, though, they crack me up, none of them being good enough for his Silver Prince.

Considering Rhaagar disappeared AFTER he kidnapped a girl and everybody knows that, it's odd that he doesn't mention it at all. Either he's in complete denial or he does know something we don't, like Rhaegar's original intentions of going away from KL to plan taking down Aerys and meeting Lyanna was entirely circumstantial and he's not paying attention to "mere gossip" (heh).

But yes, that's hilarious, specially if, as I believe, Aegon falls hard for Elia. It's going to be Rhaegar's wedding all over again... he's going to crack. :lol:

As far as what JonCon wanted or expected from Rhaegar if he had managed to save the Kingdoms for him, I do have to wonder if even back then...........did or didn't Connington have a specific idea. I agree that Jon knew how things worked and understood that he would and should marry to carry on the family name, legacy, etc. It's hard in some ways to equate the young Connington with the man we have met now, especially since he is now almost gleefully hiding from any political marriage deals thanks to his Greyscale. He does seem almost grateful for that aspect, although.........at least he's not wasting the good wine on it.

hahah... that part is hilarious.

"But, Jon..! you can still marry, look at you! all young and handsome and still attractive and..." <palms his shoulder... awkward silence> "Ok, maybe not..."

He accepts he has been arrogant trying to get something he couldn't have, although he doesn't specifically says what it is. His main motivation was to gain Rhaegar's love and he couldn't. Of course, he didn't ask Aerys for the job, but is a chance fallen from heaven, so to speak, in the same way Victarion was lucky his own brother's orders are giving him his chance for revenge. Of course, you can't tell the King, "thanks but no thanks". I suppose the realistic man he was knew that at least he would become Rhaegar's "favourite" and he could stick his tongue out to the other lordlings wanting the prince's favour. The young idealistic naive young lord would believe Rhaegar would see him as more than a loyal friend.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

http://photos.vanityfair.com/2014/04/03/533da2627686d86f7701137d_got-3-bran-push.gif

I do believe Jon loves Aegon but he's a bit detached from him. I guess it makes sense that he has chosen not to get to involved to people, specially knowing that one day Aegon will be his King and he will serve him as Hand. It's more than simply see your children leave the nest, in his case.

If he finds out Aegon isn't real, he is still his son. Or I hope he stills sees him in that way. After all, he's innocent from everything. If he dies before he finds out, it's going to be losing Rhaegar all over again. Varys is doomed either way.

Considering Rhaagar disappeared AFTER he kidnapped a girl and everybody knows that, it's odd that he doesn't mention it at all. Either he's in complete denial or he does know something we don't, like Rhaegar's original intentions of going away from KL to plan taking down Aerys and meeting Lyanna was entirely circumstantial and he's not paying attention to "mere gossip" (heh).

But yes, that's hilarious, specially if, as I believe, Aegon falls hard for Elia. It's going to be Rhaegar's wedding all over again... he's going to crack. :lol:

hahah... that part is hilarious.

"But, Jon..! you can still marry, look at you! all young and handsome and still attractive and..." <palms his shoulder... awkward silence> "Ok, maybe not..."

He accepts he has been arrogant trying to get something he couldn't have, although he doesn't specifically says what it is. His main motivation was to gain Rhaegar's love and he couldn't. Of course, he didn't ask Aerys for the job, but is a chance fallen from heaven, so to speak, in the same way Victarion was lucky his own brother's orders are giving him his chance for revenge. Of course, you can't tell the King, "thanks but no thanks". I suppose the realistic man he was knew that at least he would become Rhaegar's "favourite" and he could stick his tongue out to the other lordlings wanting the prince's favour. The young idealistic naive young lord would believe Rhaegar would see him as more than a loyal friend.

Haha, maybe if Haldon ever figures it out, he'd finally be more than a Half Maester.

I don't know........I think our little conversation shows, there is much of interest about Jon Connington. I do agree, with Aegon and with many things, he has adapted that 'cold' demeanor. Hell, that's what puts Tyrion off of him, blue hair dye and all............he reminds him of LORD Tywin. I think any interactions between a JonCon and a Peter Dinklage as Tyrion would have been spectacular, and if we're not getting him, this again leads me to:

#FuckHBO #StopTheGingerHate #DownWithBlueHairDyeDiscrimination

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't know........I think our little conversation shows, there is much of interest about Jon Connington. I do agree, with Aegon and with many things, he has adapted that 'cold' demeanor. Hell, that's what puts Tyrion off of him, blue hair dye and all............he reminds him of LORD Tywin. I think any interactions between a JonCon and a Peter Dinklage as Tyrion would have been spectacular, and if we're not getting him, this again leads me to:

#FuckHBO #StopTheGingerHate #DownWithBlueHairDyeDiscrimination

According to his FB page, KmcKidd started filming Grey's today. Everybody was "yay!" and I was all "aaay... noooo.... aaaaah...!"

#FuckHBO #StopTheGingerHate #DownWithBlueHairDyeDiscrimination #StopTheHateToTheRecentlyAppearedInTheBooks

[Wmarshal]

HBO is sucking for cutting Arianne, and if they cut the dream team that is King Aegon squad, the only sovereign I recognize, then

#FuckHBO #StopTheGingerHate #DownWithBlueHairDyeDiscrimination #StopTheHateToTheRecentlyAppearedInTheBooks

By the way the true hand's beard, for Stark lovers who dis the good Edmure, is it really ginger hate seeing how the Starks are a family of gingers?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The world and fiction both need uninteresting people. They actually do most of the work, and get little of the credit of running things. JonCon just may be the Fanny Price of the series.

[sertravisredbeard]

There is no Griffin's Roost for HBO. http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/got/gallery4/gallery8/hires/31.jpg

Fuck them.

Griffin's Roost didn't show up on the maps in the books until Dance did it? I think they leave lots of the smaller castles off various versions of the maps.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Why not, we no less about him that anyone else who took place in Robert's Rebellion.