Was need really an average fighter?

[Zoravar Singh]

I should be asking for evidence to the contrary. George calls him competent and says that Brandon was the warrior in the family, he has no reputation as a great fighter despite participating in several battles and bronze Hohn Royce kicked him around the yard when ned had help from ser rodrik.

Bronze Yohn is pretty much up there in Westerosi fighters south of Jaime Lannister level. and Brandon could be the warrior of the family and that would still not prevent Ned from being good. Garlan is better than Loras witha s word, but no-one can argue that Loras is bad.

Anyway, the competent definition pretty much sums it up, except that competent doesn't mean average.

competent

ˈkɒmpɪt(ə)nt/

adjective

adjective: competent

having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully.

"a highly competent surgeon"

(of a person) efficient and capable.

"an infinitely competent mother of three"

synonyms:

capable, able, proficient, adept, adroit, accomplished, skilful, skilled, gifted, talented, masterly, virtuoso, expert, knowledgeable, qualified,

Also, please provide a link to this place where GRRM calls Ned competent, because I have genuinely not seen it.

[Royce da Bronze Yohn]

Competence is a matter of perspective as well. I imagine that Ned is just as good as is expected of one of the High Lords of Westeros. That means that while he will never be mentioned in any discussion of top fighters, he still well above average compared to men-at-arms and lesser lords given the increased time and resources put towards sparring and swordplay. It is also possible that Ned's modesty leads others to overlook his skill.

[Lee-Sensei]

Bronze Hohn is great. Ned is not. Ned isn't comparable to Lora's at all. George has said himself many times that Loras is great. George is not. I'll never understand the obsessions with making ned a great fighter when there's zero evidence for it.

[Zoravar Singh]

Bronze Hohn is great. Ned is not. Ned isn't comparable to Lora's at all. George has said himself many times that Loras is great. George is not. I'll never understand the obsessions with making ned a great fighter when there's zero evidence for it.

I'm not comparing Ned to Loras at all, if you read my argument you'd actually know that. And if Bronze YOhn (great) beats Ned , then Ned is not great, but good is still in the not great category. I never said Ned is a great fighter, merely that he is better than average. ETA Show me one quote in which I called Ned 'great'. You should really stop putting words in my mouth.

Also, you never provided the link in which GRRM states that Ned is competent. I assume that your reluctance/inability to provide said link proves that it doesn't exist.

[willofDorne]

Well, he may not be the greatest, but at 35 he's still close enough to his prime to be considered quite dangerous to anyone, especially with a huge sword like Ice in his hand. Anyone who fights Ned has to know how to beat him, a 35 year old man of the North, who doesn't fight in tournaments, and weilds what is quite possibly the largest fucking Valyrian sword in all the land. That's quite a combination. Sure, he may not be the best, but he's got a lot of what you'd called "undefineable" qualities that make him better than your average lord.

It's quite possible he loses to Jaime or Loras easily, but I think any given day might also apply here. He may not be clear tier 1 fighter, but he's pushing close to breaking into tier one territory.

[Ser Greg of House House]

I don't know, people see too much into things I suppose... For it's pretty simple. Ned would lose one-on-one to the ones who are remarked to be talented: Jaime and Selmy (obviously), Old King Bob, folks like Garlan and Loras, the Hound, Mance etc. I mean, a guy like Jaime is able to equal the talented Brienne tired and with handcuffs on his hands and legs (IIRC)... Ned would probably hold his own against other good fighters, and be better than the vast majority.

I think Ned could face someone like Bronze Yohn, it's hard to say without more info. The fact that he didn't participate in tourneys etc. makes it harder to evaluate his skills.

[Lee-Sensei]

I'm not comparing Ned to Loras at all, if you read my argument you'd actually know that. And if Bronze YOhn (great) beats Ned , then Ned is not great, but good is still in the not great category. I never said Ned is a great fighter, merely that he is better than average. ETA Show me one quote in which I called Ned 'great'. You should really stop putting words in my mouth.

Also, you never provided the link in which GRRM states that Ned is competent. I assume that your reluctance/inability to provide said link proves that it doesn't exist.

I'm not comparing Ned to Loras at all, if you read my argument you'd actually know that. And if Bronze YOhn (great) beats Ned , then Ned is not great, but good is still in the not great category. I never said Ned is a great fighter, merely that he is better than average. ETA Show me one quote in which I called Ned 'great'. You should really stop putting words in my mouth.

Also, you never provided the link in which GRRM states that Ned is competent. I assume that your reluctance/inability to provide said link proves that it doesn't exist.

Let's try something different. Why don't you give some evidence that ned was better than the average lord.

[Lee-Sensei]

I don't know, people see too much into things I suppose... For it's pretty simple. Ned would lose one-on-one to the ones who are remarked to be talented: Jaime and Selmy (obviously), Old King Bob, folks like Garlan and Loras, the Hound, Mance etc. I mean, a guy like Jaime is able to equal the talented Brienne tired and with handcuffs on his hands and legs (IIRC)... Ned would probably hold his own against other good fighters, and be better than the vast majority.

I think Ned could face someone like Bronze Yohn, it's hard to say without more info. The fact that he didn't participate in tourneys etc. makes it harder to evaluate his skills.

Bronze Hohn was kicking him around when he had help from rodrik cassel so I doubt that.

[Zoravar Singh]

Let's try something different. Why don't you give some evidence that ned was better than the average lord.

The definition of competent would prove it. And for one, Ned wielded Ice, which is a greatsword and tougher to use than your average sword, and wielding it by itself means that the user is a proficient swordsman. Randyll Tarly, Gregor Clegane , Arthur Dayne all used greatswords. See a pattern here? Near every person who wields a greatsword is atleast a proficient swordsman.

I don't think you can point out a single inept swordsman who used a greatsword.

Now before you try to deflect my reply with an illogical response, I will spell out that I don't mean that every LS user is automatically bad ( heck Selmy uses one), but even an incompetent person can use a longsword. Even Tyrion uses a longsword at various points in the series. .

Bronze Hohn was kicking him around when he had help from rodrik cassel so I doubt that.

The text does not make it clear whether Bronze Yohn defeated Ned+ Rodrick simultaneously or one after another, so I wouldn't go so far as to say Ned had help.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Average for a guy with 15+ years of the best training the North and the Vale can offer, wearing the best equipment money can buy and some it can't (Ice), but not particular talented.

[Trigger Warning]

The definition of competent would prove it. And for one, Ned wielded Ice, which is a greatsword and tougher to use than your average sword, and wielding it by itself means that the user is a proficient swordsman. Randyll Tarly, Gregor Clegane , Arthur Dayne all used greatswords. See a pattern here? Near every person who wields a greatsword is atleast a proficient swordsman.

I don't think you can point out a single inept swordsman who used a greatsword.

Now before you try to deflect my reply with an illogical response, I will spell out that I don't mean that every LS user is automatically bad ( heck Selmy uses one), but even an incompetent person can use a longsword. Even Tyrion uses a longsword at various points in the series. .

The text does not make it clear whether Bronze Yohn defeated Ned+ Rodrick simultaneously or one after another, so I wouldn't go so far as to say Ned had help.

Does the text at any point say that Ned actually used Ice in battle?

Also, does the text say that Tarly is a proficient swordsman? Clegane uses one as one would use a longsword, because he's fantasy huge.

[Jenn33]

Definitely, calling him The Need from now on.

LOL LOL LOL!

[Lee-Sensei]

The definition of competent would prove it. And for one, Ned wielded Ice, which is a greatsword and tougher to use than your average sword, and wielding it by itself means that the user is a proficient swordsman. Randyll Tarly, Gregor Clegane , Arthur Dayne all used greatswords. See a pattern here? Near every person who wields a greatsword is atleast a proficient swordsman.

I don't think you can point out a single inept swordsman who used a greatsword.

Now before you try to deflect my reply with an illogical response, I will spell out that I don't mean that every LS user is automatically bad ( heck Selmy uses one), but even an incompetent person can use a longsword. Even Tyrion uses a longsword at various points in the series. .

The text does not make it clear whether Bronze Yohn defeated Ned+ Rodrick simultaneously or one after another, so I wouldn't go so far as to say Ned had help.

Competent doesn't mean that he's better than the average swordsman. It means that like all high lords he was trained by a master of arms and as such is competent in a fight.

Wielding a great sword doesn't mean that he's better than the average lord, and it's hinted that Royce beat them together.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Few points from someone who HEMA spars w/ people three nights a week...

Ned obviously sparred w/ big bro Bandon in Winterfell & Bob Baratheon in the Vale growing up. That is an absolute given. That is how actual swordfighters like me and other who still practice western martial arts get better. Practice form & technique-- then spar with a compatriot. You both improve, & Ned was right in suggesting you improve more from sparring w/ superior competition.

"Competent" means better than average. I get the impression Ned was not a natural like Dayne or Jaime or a physical beast like Robert, but he was well trained in a castle and savvy and that counts for a lot. He would dismantle the "average" guy w/ sword in the thick of a battle. Against a true savant he would def lose, as Dayne had his number before whatever interference Howland enacted.

Ice is a very unique weapon. VS is said to be much lighter than regular steal. Also, a two handed great sword (usually big&heavy) is atypical for dueling. What it is very good at is cutting down horses in a pitched battle.

I just reread Jaime dreaming on the weirwood stump. He never feared Ned in a fight, but was indeed intimidated by him as an older man and a lord, as when he rode into the throne room, commanding and w/ eyes full of judgement. Ned lead men in war & commanded their respect and that is a skill. Tourneys & this emphasis on one vs one fighting was not his wheelhouse.

[The Prince Not Promised]

Not saying it's happening in this thread, but it does annoy me when people don't want to accept that The Ned and Jon (I know Jon isn't the subject of this thread, but it's usually the same people) aren't right up there with the top tier swordsmen in the novels. They're both good, if unspectacular fighters. They would be boring if they were at an Arthur Dayne level with a sword. Is being decent and equipped with a Valyrian steel blade (and a giant Direwolf in Jon's case) not enough? Ned's good compared to your average soldier but only average compared to a well-trained Knight or Northern noble. With Ice in hand he probably puts up a good fight against all but the top 1% of all fighters, and top 10-20% of all trained nobles.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

Ned was a average to above average sword fighter and that's not a bad thing.

[of man and wolf]

Jaime puts Ned down hard in a true fight.

Swords or fists?

[Lee-Sensei]

Swords or fists?

Probably either. Jaimie's in pretty good shape.

[Bryanfury]

It's interesting that someone said something about there being no evidence for Ned being a "great fighter". Can anyone please provide me with evidence at all relating to Ned's skill with a sword? To my knowledge we know of two fights he has had; against Bronze Yohn, and at the Tower of Joy. Neither of which actually speaks to Ned's skill with a sword, only that he was unable to match Bronze Yohn in a spare, and that he believes Arthur Dayne would have killed him. I'm not inclined to judge Ned as being poor or bad or anything like that for losing to two men who actually do have their skill stated in the text. It is true that there is nothing in the text to say he was a great fighter, but I believe it goes both ways here.

As an aside, Bronze Yohn didn't fight Rodrik and Ned at the same time. He beat them in a spar one at a time.

She could see him in the yard, a practice sword in hand, hammering her father to the ground and turning to defeat Ser Rodrik as well.

This quote never has, and never will, imply that Yohn fought them both at the same time. That would be an inference that isn't actually supported by the text.

[KINGpanther]

It doesn't make sense actually, Ned was more the Lord type while Brandon, the Wild Wolf, was the warrior yet Rickard looked at the wildcard Brandon to lead the family. Westerosi put far too much faith in warriors.