Was need really an average fighter?

[The Fallen]

Don't forget that Bronze Yohn is also a big guy; about the size of the Hound, according to Sansa.

The "competent" remark is in an SSM, I believe.

[Boarsbane]

Does the text at any point say that Ned actually used Ice in battle?

Also, does the text say that Tarly is a proficient swordsman? Clegane uses one as one would use a longsword, because he's fantasy huge.

Everyone calls him a great soldier and he seems to constantly be leading the vanguard. Also I think it says he cut down one of the Stormlords that switched to Robert's side and sent his head to Aerys.

[KINGpanther]

Swords or fists?

Probably either, although Ned would stand a better chance in a fist fight.

[willofDorne]

Few points from someone who HEMA spars w/ people three nights a week...

Ned obviously sparred w/ big bro Bandon in Winterfell & Bob Baratheon in the Vale growing up. That is an absolute given. That is how actual swordfighters like me and other who still practice western martial arts get better. Practice form & technique-- then spar with a compatriot. You both improve, & Ned was right in suggesting you improve more from sparring w/ superior competition.

"Competent" means better than average. I get the impression Ned was not a natural like Dayne or Jaime or a physical beast like Robert, but he was well trained in a castle and savvy and that counts for a lot. He would dismantle the "average" guy w/ sword in the thick of a battle. Against a true savant he would def lose, as Dayne had his number before whatever interference Howland enacted.

Ice is a very unique weapon. VS is said to be much lighter than regular steal. Also, a two handed great sword (usually big&heavy) is atypical for dueling. What it is very good at is cutting down horses in a pitched battle.

I just reread Jaime dreaming on the weirwood stump. He never feared Ned in a fight, but was indeed intimidated by him as an older man and a lord, as when he rode into the throne room, commanding and w/ eyes full of judgement. Ned lead men in war & commanded their respect and that is a skill. Tourneys & this emphasis on one vs one fighting was not his wheelhouse.

Glad you touched on the lightness of the Valyrian steel. In my mind, this is a pretty big advantage. The fact that it is so big is countered by the fact that it would be lighter than an average steel weapon. This means Ned can do things with it that would be unconventional and surprising. That's why I think when he says, "he doesn't want people to know what he can do" he's literally thinking to myself, man, I've got some wicked tricks up my sleeve on how to use these weapons... So though I think Jaime and Loras would probably win, counting Ned as an average fighter is in my mind a mistake. With Ice and the years of training, and being at age 35, he's certainly going to be very dangerous. Maybe not the most dangerous in the lands, but he shut down the three Kingsguards... so we have to assume he's more than just competent. Perhaps competent, with a bonus of having Ice.

It's weird, but that fight with Mance Raydar that Jon Snow had... I thought of Jon's father a lot during that fight. Perhaps this was a way of GRRM saying that Jon Snow had not yet reached his father's skill level. There's a lot of similarities, with Mance using a two handed greatsword as if it's a lighter weapon. I dunno. I just feel like Ned couldn't have been just competent. He had too much going for him.

[Siddard Stark]

Well no where it is stated that Brandon wasn't a good leader or he would make a bad Lord because he was "The Wild Wolf" in his internal monologue Ned say it was all mean't for Brandon as in Ned himself thought that Brandon would have done a better job ruling, being The hand of the King and a potential father-in-law for a future King. As you can see with the current Stark generation all the Stark siblings get the same training growing up. So Brandon, Ned and Benjen got the same training, skill varies from person to person some people are more gifted than others in case of Starks it was Brandon who was more gifted in the martial arts being a better jouster and swordsmen. Remember it was mentioned somewhere that Brandon made it to the final four with Robert Baratheon, Barriston Selmy and Rhaegar Targharyen at that point he was unhorsed by Rhaegar. It feel it was a shame that Brandon didn't get to participate in a battle or fight/spar with a renowned Knight like Barriston or Dayne. Image Brandon with Ice and Dayne with Dawn would have made for an interesting duel.

As far is Ned is concerned he was pretty much one of the best commanders/generals in the entire series and i recon no one can argue that. He has an unbeated record in the field and as a swordsmen he was above average, remember Ned trys to downplay or doubt his abilities in his own inter monologue. And like Garlan he is not interested in fame or glory thus we cannot assess his level as a swordsman.

[Lee-Sensei]

It's interesting that someone said something about there being no evidence for Ned being a "great fighter". Can anyone please provide me with evidence at all relating to Ned's skill with a sword? To my knowledge we know of two fights he has had; against Bronze Yohn, and at the Tower of Joy. Neither of which actually speaks to Ned's skill with a sword, only that he was unable to match Bronze Yohn in a spare, and that he believes Arthur Dayne would have killed him. I'm not inclined to judge Ned as being poor or bad or anything like that for losing to two men who actually do have their skill stated in the text. It is true that there is nothing in the text to say he was a great fighter, but I believe it goes both ways here.

As an aside, Bronze Yohn didn't fight Rodrik and Ned at the same time. He beat them in a spar one at a time.

This quote never has, and never will, imply that Yohn fought them both at the same time. That would be an inference that isn't actually supported by the text.

This kind of argument is strange to say the least. "Sure theres no evidence that Ned was great, but theres no evidence that he wasnt great either (incorrect, but whatever). By that logic we could assume that Theon, Edmure, Lancel and whoever else are great sword fighters. Or we can say that theyre competent fighters who got the standard training for lordlings.

Why are people obsessed with making ned out to be a badass fighter. He was a good general, a decent guy in a world full of assholes and a great Lord. Isnt that enough?

[Bryanfury]

When all you do is come into a thread specifically to oppose the OP being effectively saying there isn't a direct textual proof of what he's arguing, you can certainly expect to be told to find textual proof to back up your opposing view. It's not strange - it's asking you to do what you insist the other person can't, by backing up your opinion with fact. People aren't obsessed with making him out to be a 'badass fighter'. People want to discuss his capabilities as a fighter. But following that strawman statement, I can just question why it's so dire for so many blatantly anti-Stark biased posters to make out Ned as a poor fighter (I feel like I have to actually say I'm saying you are trying to make out Ned as a poor fighter, no more than many of us were trying to make him out as a 'badass' or great fighter).

And I'm going to take GRRM's word on saying Ned is competent. I'm happy with that. He's a competent fighter with a sword. That means compared to your average swordsman, he's capable, efficient, adequate, adept, even somewhat skilled. I don't need him to be in line with Corbray or Royce or Jaime or the Tyrell brothers. But why is it that some people can't help but try to deride others for trying to discuss it at all?

[Red Tiger]

When all you do is come into a thread specifically to oppose the OP being effectively saying there isn't a direct textual proof of what he's arguing, you can certainly expect to be told to find textual proof to back up your opposing view. It's not strange - it's asking you to do what you insist the other person can't, by backing up your opinion with fact.

People aren't obsessed with making him out to be a 'badass fighter'. People want to discuss his capabilities as a fighter. But following that strawman statement, I can just question why it's so dire for so many blatantly anti-Stark biased posters to make out Ned as a poor fighter.

Robert is said to be a great fighter

Dayne is said to be a great fighter

Jaime is said to be a great fighter

The Cleganes are said to be great fighters

My point is, in this series, if a guy is a great fighter, GRRM will point it out somewhere. So Lee-Sensei sorta has a point.

[Pod The Impaler]

The Cleganes are said to be great fighters

The Hound is a great fighter; Jaime rates him as one of the few people he worries about, and certainly higher that the likes of Hosteen Frey or Strongboar.

The Mountain is just huge - massive reach, thick armour, immense strength. Skill? Well, it's not lacking, but his fight with Oberyn showed that someone who is a great fighter can pick him apart despite his natural advantages.

[Lee-Sensei]

When all you do is come into a thread specifically to oppose the OP being effectively saying there isn't a direct textual proof of what he's arguing, you can certainly expect to be told to find textual proof to back up your opposing view. It's not strange - it's asking you to do what you insist the other person can't, by backing up your opinion with fact. People aren't obsessed with making him out to be a 'badass fighter'. People want to discuss his capabilities as a fighter. But following that strawman statement, I can just question why it's so dire for so many blatantly anti-Stark biased posters to make out Ned as a poor fighter (I feel like I have to actually say I'm saying you are trying to make out Ned as a poor fighter, no more than many of us were trying to make him out as a 'badass' or great fighter).

And I'm going to take GRRM's word on saying Ned is competent. I'm happy with that. He's a competent fighter with a sword. That means compared to your average swordsman, he's capable, efficient, adequate, adept, even somewhat skilled. I don't need him to be in line with Corbray or Royce or Jaime or the Tyrell brothers. But why is it that some people can't help but try to deride others for trying to discuss it at all?

Its not about discussig it. Discussing it is fine. But people should be objective about these things. Ned was competent. In this case that means he had the training of a highborn lordling and could probably beat the average person (people without the rraining of a highborn lordling), but theres no evidence that he is better than the average nobleman. I like Theon, but I dont argue that hes some super awesome swordsman. I like Edmure, but I dont aegue that hea a super awesome swordsman. Yet i always see Ned being placed on a high pedestal as a fighter and a general and i just dont while i can somewhat understand putting him high up there as a commander, as a fighter he was average for his station.

[Lee-Sensei]

When all you do is come into a thread specifically to oppose the OP being effectively saying there isn't a direct textual proof of what he's arguing, you can certainly expect to be told to find textual proof to back up your opposing view. It's not strange - it's asking you to do what you insist the other person can't, by backing up your opinion with fact. People aren't obsessed with making him out to be a 'badass fighter'. People want to discuss his capabilities as a fighter. But following that strawman statement, I can just question why it's so dire for so many blatantly anti-Stark biased posters to make out Ned as a poor fighter (I feel like I have to actually say I'm saying you are trying to make out Ned as a poor fighter, no more than many of us were trying to make him out as a 'badass' or great fighter).

And I'm going to take GRRM's word on saying Ned is competent. I'm happy with that. He's a competent fighter with a sword. That means compared to your average swordsman, he's capable, efficient, adequate, adept, even somewhat skilled. I don't need him to be in line with Corbray or Royce or Jaime or the Tyrell brothers. But why is it that some people can't help but try to deride others for trying to discuss it at all?

Its not about discussig it. Discussing it is fine. But people should be objective about these things. Ned was competent. In this case that means he had the training of a highborn lordling and could probably beat the average person (people without the rraining of a highborn lordling), but theres no evidence that he is better than the average nobleman. I like Theon, but I dont argue that hes some super awesome swordsman. I like Edmure, but I dont aegue that hea a super awesome swordsman. Yet i always see Ned being placed on a high pedestal as a fighter and a general and i just dont while i can somewhat understand putting him high up there as a commander, as a fighter he was average for his station.

The Hound is a great fighter; Jaime rates him as one of the few people he worries about, and certainly higher that the likes of Hosteen Frey or Strongboar.

The Mountain is just huge - massive reach, thick armour, immense strength. Skill? Well, it's not lacking, but his fight with Oberyn showed that someone who is a great fighter can pick him apart despite his natural advantages.

The mountain may not be the most skilled fighter, but he js a great one.

[Bryanfury]

Robert is said to be a great fighter

Dayne is said to be a great fighter

Jaime is said to be a great fighter

The Cleganes are said to be great fighters

My point is, in this series, if a guy is a great fighter, GRRM will point it out somewhere. So Lee-Sensei sorta has a point.

Indeed, but read the OP:

Is Ned just being humble when he describes his abilities as a fighter?

Does anyone else in the series list him as average or slightly above average?

You would think, as many battles as he has led, been involved in and the reputations of the people he fought, he would have to have been more than above average to have come out relatively unscathed.

That doesn't say great does it? In fact in the entire first page the only person who used the word great was someone who pointed out the "competent" and he said Ned was competent, not great. So do you see my issue when someone jumps in and says things like "Stop trying to say Ned was great! You're not allowed to discuss this!". My issue is that Lee-Sensei jumped in and attacked a viewpoint that wasn't posited by other people in the thread.

And look, Lee-Sensei did it again:

Yet i always see Ned being placed on a high pedestal as a fighter and a general and i just dont while i can somewhat understand putting him high up there as a commander, as a fighter he was average for his station.

I haven't checked page 3 yet, but maybe one person came along and said Ned was fantastic and could beat a bunch of nobles and highborn. From what I read though, everyone is agreeing that he's competent but not great and would lose to the greats. So what's your issue? It feels like you're just trying to cut down any positive talk about Ned at all.

[Red Tiger]

I am so very CONFUSED.

I think Ned was an above-average swordsman but no more.

[Lee-Sensei]

Indeed, but read the OP:

That doesn't say great does it? In fact in the entire first page the only person who used the word great was someone who pointed out the "competent" and he said Ned was competent, not great. So do you see my issue when someone jumps in and says things like "Stop trying to say Ned was great! You're not allowed to discuss this!". My issue is that Lee-Sensei jumped in and attacked a viewpoint that wasn't posited by other people in the thread.

And look, Lee-Sensei did it again:

I haven't checked page 3 yet, but maybe one person came along and said Ned was fantastic and could beat a bunch of nobles and highborn. From what I read though, everyone is agreeing that he's competent but not great and would lose to the greats. So what's your issue? It feels like you're just trying to cut down any positive talk about Ned at all.

Try reading my first post, bryan. I didnt say anyone called him a great fighter. It was about nex being good as in better than the average lord. Theres no evidence for that.

[JoeyBanana]

Yes. He was a competently skilled swordsman, just not a legendary or exceptional one.

[Bryanfury]

Try reading my first post, bryan. I didnt say anyone called him a great fighter. It was about nex being good as in better than the average lord. Theres no evidence for that.

Yes, you made the claim that Ned isn't better than the average lord, and were asked for evidence for that claim. Instead of providing it you demanded evidence that he was better than the average lord.

[KINGpanther]

In the end we just don't know. We are not given a clear description of Ned's skills because we never see him in battle. He must have good skill if he survived Roberts Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion.

[Zoravar Singh]

Try reading my first post, bryan. I didnt say anyone called him a great fighter. It was about nex being good as in better than the average lord. Theres no evidence for that.

If you survive an entire rebellion, wield a greatsword, and defeat legendary kingsguard in a 7v3 situation to emerge as one of two surivvors, then I assume you're better than the average nobleman who did not survive the rebellion or the battle with the kingsguard. And GRRM has not classified the average nobleman as competent, but only Ned, so stop comparing Ned to the average nobleman. And a legendary Kingsguard memeber can be expected to take on 3-4 men by himself, as Garlan by himself takes on 3.

And like I previously pointed out, using a greatsword is much tougher than using a longsword, and implies a certain level of skill for the wielder. To give a modern day comparison, a kid can pick up a handgun, say a .32, and shoot, and the recoil wont damage him. If he tries to use a sniper without proper training, the recoil would shatter his shoulder and/or collarbone.

[sandywinder]

I know Dayne was outnumbered at the ToJ but something doesn't sound right about this battle. Three of the best KGs such as Dayne 'defending' a tower should beat 'competent' fighters like Ned and the others. Unless Ned's companions were very good fighters, of course. Taking a tower they would have to fight up the steps in a short space and one at a time against Dayne and co. I am assuming any intelligent defence force would fight this way against superior numbers.

[Bryanfury]

One of Neds 7 was also fresh from a year in the Black Cells