Question about Old Nan

[Mladen]

I know that Stark family tree hasn't been completed and that the photo we got earlier this year ois just a first draft, but I was interested in one thing. Which Brandon Old Nan nursed. As was said in Game of thrones in Bran IV:

She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp. No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she’d been called Old Nan even when he was a boy. She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms. Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him. He had been an older brother of Lord Rickard, Bran’s grandfather, or perhaps a younger brother, or a brother to Lord Rickard’s father. Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another. In all the stories the little boy died at three of a summer chill, but Old Nan stayed on at Winterfell with her own children.

Looking at Stark family tree (the available one), I noticed that Rickard had no brothers, and was the only son of Edwyle Stark and Marna Locke. Does this mean that the Brandon whom she came to nurse was son of William Stark and Lyanne Glover, thus Edwyle's brother? Of course, perhaps that Brandon was cut from the family tree due to his death in early age of three. So, I just wondered do we now know which Brandon Old Nan nursed, or is it still an open question?

Thanks. And apologies if this has been discussed before.

[Kingmonkey]

"...or a brother to Lord Rickard’s father." As far as I can see, the other options don't fit.

[Crackpottery warning!] "Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another." That's 'cos she's covering up the truth. She knows all those old tales because she's been hanging around Winterfell forever. It was Rickard, son of Jon Stark, builder of the Wolf's Den at White Harbour who she was referring to. Or she may even have been wetnurse to Brandon the Builder and has changed her story to so many other Brandons of subsequent generations that she can no longer keep track. When the Dreadfort falls, she'll return to Winterfell, and a hundred years hence, she'll be telling people she was wetnurse to the brother of Lord Rickon Stark, Brandon who went beyond the wall.

[redrose]

Hi Mladen

I've been trying to work this out myself in order to try and get an estimate of the age of Hodor. From what I can gather, if it was old Nan in Brans weirwood flash backs then that puts her age approaching 100 during AGoT. The she wolves novella is supposed to take place @210-215 AC as Dunk and Egg are on their way to Winterfell to help Lord Beron Stark gather a force to push back the dagon Greyjoy rebellion. This then brings 3 brandons into play. 1) Berons son and brother to Artos, roderick and William. 2) Artos's son with lorra Royce-------notice she has the same name as his mum-----surely not the same person.UGH!!!!!! 3) William stark and lyanna Glovers child.

My guess is that it was the half brother of Rickards farther as it looks like william married melantha Blackwood after Lyanna Glover gave birth to the Brandon in question and died thus giving the reason for why william married twice.

If you have any idea how old you think Hodor is I would appreciate any guesstimate. Any way hope this helps.

[Kingmonkey]

Old Nan's sons died during Robert's Rebellion c283 and grandson during the Greyjoy rebellion c289. If she was wetnurse to an uncle of Lord Rickard, we can assume that this mystery Brandon was born at the same time as one of her kids. Rickard Stark's kids were born in the 260s, so push it back a generation and 240s would be about right.

It's all a bit of a stretch assuming Old Nan was born a little pre-200, but we can guess at Hodor's grandad dying in 283 at around 40, Hodor's dad dying in 289 at somewhere between say 16 and 32. That gives us say 273-289 as the range of possible birth years for Hodor, making him between 9 and 26 during GoT. He's obviously pretty well grown, so we're looking at the upper range, but he's referred to as a stableboy, so probably not at the top of the range. Call it 20?

[Mladen]

Old Nan's sons died during Robert's Rebellion c283 and grandson during the Greyjoy rebellion c289. If she was wetnurse to an uncle of Lord Rickard, we can assume that this mystery Brandon was born at the same time as one of her kids. Rickard Stark's kids were born in the 260s, so push it back a generation and 240s would be about right.

It's all a bit of a stretch assuming Old Nan was born a little pre-200, but we can guess at Hodor's grandad dying in 283 at around 40, Hodor's dad dying in 289 at somewhere between say 16 and 32. That gives us say 273-289 as the range of possible birth years for Hodor, making him between 9 and 26 during GoT. He's obviously pretty well grown, so we're looking at the upper range, but he's referred to as a stableboy, so probably not at the top of the range. Call it 20?

Whichever Brandon we speak here, and I actually believe that from the Stark family tree, we can conclude that it's the most likely William's son (according to her own record), he was at least somewhat younger than her children (she was his wetnurse, after all). Given that Rickard was born between 240-260AC, that is a whole generation ago. So, if we assume that she was a wetnurse to Brandon around 210-230AC, she would have to be born around 200AC. But, if she had sons who died at the Robert's rebellion, and if one of them would have been born in 210-230AC period, wouldn't he be a bit too old for fighting in the army in RR? I mean, he would have between 50 and 70 (closer to 70). Unless if we count that the children she remained after Brandon died, are not the sons who died at RR, but the fact that she had daughters, as was told. And then everything fits...

So, can we actually assume that she was nursing Rickard's uncle and take it as a fact?

Also, I believe that Hodor is in his early 20ies. IIRC, Maester Luwin called him a boy once. I was always puzzled with Kristian Nairn playing him on the show.

[three-eyed monkey]

Hi Malden,

I agree that it must be Willam's son by his second marriage, and therefore he would have been Lord of Winterfell had he survived.

Instead, the line continued through Edwyle, Willam's son by his first marriage, and I think we can even surmise that this claim was later challenged by Rodrick, Willam's wandering brother, who probably considered Edwyle to have lost his claim when his father married another.

I base this on Bran's weirwood vision where he saw a pregnant woman emerge from the pool and pray to the old gods for a son that would avenge her. I believe that woman was Lyarra Stark, and it was her father, Rodrick, she wanted avenged, and Lord Rickard that she wanted revenge on. Why? Because Rodrick challenged Edwyle's inheritance, Edwyle's son Rickard killed Rodrick, and then married Rodrick's daughter, and his own cousin, Lyarra, to heal the family rift. And the old gods answered her prayer in Brandon, who doomed himself and his father when he went to the Red Keep to call out Rhaegar.

[Kingmonkey]

Whichever Brandon we speak here, and I actually believe that from the Stark family tree, we can conclude that it's the most likely William's son (according to her own record), he was at least somewhat younger than her children (she was his wetnurse, after all). Given that Rickard was born between 240-260AC, that is a whole generation ago. So, if we assume that she was a wetnurse to Brandon around 210-230AC, she would have to be born around 200AC. But, if she had sons who died at the Robert's rebellion, and if one of them would have been born in 210-230AC period, wouldn't he be a bit too old for fighting in the army in RR? I mean, he would have between 50 and 70 (closer to 70). Unless if we count that the children she remained after Brandon died, are not the sons who died at RR, but the fact that she had daughters, as was told. And then everything fits...

So, can we actually assume that she was nursing Rickard's uncle and take it as a fact?

Also, I believe that Hodor is in his early 20ies. IIRC, Maester Luwin called him a boy once. I was always puzzled with Kristian Nairn playing him on the show.

Brandon Stark (Rickard's oldest son) was born in 261-262, so 248 is the latest we can possibly allow for Rickard's birth. Robb would have become a father at 16-17, Eddard became a father at 20-21, which was probably a little slow for a typical Stark. If we guess 18 is normal, then if Brandon was born in 261 or 262 that gives us 243 or 244 for Rickard's birth year, and 225 or 226 for Edwyle's. So 230 looks good for Nan's wetnursing of the other Brandon. 53 is not an impossible age for someone to have died during Robert's rebellion, though it's a stretch.

I don't think we can assume for sure anything about Nan, her stories are obviously confused. See my crackpottery above. However it's far more likely it's just GRRM playing fast and loose with the timelines and just not thinking it through that closely. Rickon's uncle is about as good as we can get without something stretching a bit too far though, I reckon.

Kristian Nairn is absolutely awesome as Hodor, love him. Clearly not the age he is in the books though. Because he's simple, it wouldn't be surprising for people to infantilise him a bit and refer to him as a boy at 20ish, but not at Kirstin Nairn's age.

William Stark died in the battle of long lake, 184 by the wiki. That would make Nan's oldest child at least 99 during Robert's Rebellion if the Brandon in question was his son. We can push the dates above backwards a fair bit, but I think the earliest we can go for Rickard is around 230. That puts Edwyle at an unlikely 46+ at the time of Rickard's birth if he's William's son.

Let's make some guesses:

Lord William b. 160ish Lord ?-184 (battle of long lake)

Lord Artos b. 166ish? Lord 184-208ish? (brother of William)

Lord Beron b. 170ish? Lord c208ish-225ish (Lord Stark during Dagon's rebellion 210ish)

Lord Edwyle b. 200ish? Lord 225ish to 255ish?

Lord Rickard b. 235ish? Lord 255ish-283

We kind of need 30+ years for a firstborn for both Beron and Edwyle for this to work, unless we change things slightly and make Beron William's son born just before the battle of long lake, rather than a brother of William and Artos

Lord William b. 160ish Lord ?-184 d. 184(battle of long lake)

Lord Artos b. 166ish? Lord 184-200 (stops being Lord when Beron comes of age)

Lord Beron b 184ish? Lord c200ish-225ish (Lord Stark during Dagon's rebellion 210ish)

Lord Edwyle b 206ish? Lord 225ish to 255ish?

Lord Rickard b232ish? Lord 255ish-283

That gets us down to Beron having his first son at 22, Edwyle at 26, and Rickard at 30. That's still a bit too extended Maybe Beron is Artos' son?

Lord William b. 160ish Lord ?-184 d. 184

Lord Artos b. 168ish? Lord 184-208 (William dies without heirs, Artos takes over)

Lord Beron b 190ish? Lord c208ish-240ish (Artos' son, born when Artos is 22

Lord Edwyle b 212ish? Lord 225ish to 260ish? (Beron's son, born when Beron is 22)

Lord Rickard b236ish? Lord 260ish-283 (Edwyle's son, born when Edwyle is 24)

Which leaves us with Rickard being 26 when Brandon is born. These are still ages which seem rather high for having a firstborn in Westeros, so maybe there's a Stark missing link, but the ages are believable, so I'd say this is a goer. This gives plenty of scope for Nan's Brandon to be born up to 240 and leave her son to be under 50 when he died in the rebellion, though it seems unlikely Nan wouldn't be too old to be a wetnurse at that age, so we probably have to go a few years earlier and accept her sons were rather old to be dragged into the battle.

Or she's making it all up.

(edit - fixed Rickard's date of death.)

(Additional note: Apparently The World of Ice and Fire has the battle of long lake in 226 as opposed to the 184 date listed in the wiki. If that's correct, everything gets a lot easier as we don't need Beron to be Lord after William.)

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

"...or a brother to Lord Rickard’s father." As far as I can see, the other options don't fit.

[Crackpottery warning!] "Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another." That's 'cos she's covering up the truth. She knows all those old tales because she's been hanging around Winterfell forever. It was Rickard, son of Jon Stark, builder of the Wolf's Den at White Harbour who she was referring to. Or she may even have been wetnurse to Brandon the Builder and has changed her story to so many other Brandons of subsequent generations that she can no longer keep track. When the Dreadfort falls, she'll return to Winterfell, and a hundred years hence, she'll be telling people she was wetnurse to the brother of Lord Rickon Stark, Brandon who went beyond the wall.

That's actually a really interesting theory and I wish it was true. I was just reading that GRRM's children's book "The Ice Dragon" is being re-released and I wonder if Old Nan was around when the ice dragons still existed.

[redrose]

So, can we actually assume that she was nursing Rickard's uncle and take it as a fact?

Also, I believe that Hodor is in his early 20ies. IIRC, Maester Luwin called him a boy once. I was always puzzled with Kristian Nairn playing him on the show.

[Steelborn]

Does this timeline match for when Duncan the tall went to Winterfell? Assuming that Bran's vision via weirwood net is Young Nan and him.

[Steelborn]

That's actually a really interesting theory and I wish it was true. I was just reading that GRRM's children's book "The Ice Dragon" is being re-released and I wonder if Old Nan was around when the ice dragons still existed.

She'll be the one teaching everybody how to sing The Song of Ice and Fire.

[redrose]

Does this timeline match for when Duncan the tall went to Winterfell? Assuming that Bran's vision via weirwood net is Young Nan and him.

I think old Nan will be about 15-20 at the time of the she wolves of Winterfell so I think she is definitely a candidate for the young lady kissing Duncan the tall in Brans Weirwood vision

[Mithras]

There are several threads that I posted my opinions about this.

I think Old Nan's Brandon was the son of Artos. Old Nan was a wildling captured at the Battle of Longlake. I guess she was pregnant and very close to giving birth in order to be taken as a wetnurse. She told Bran that all crows are liars. That is why I think a crow deceived her and he was the father of Old Nan's child. This makes it impossible for the woman Dunk kissed to be Old Nan. I think Hodor carries the blood of the giants as Osha suspected, not Dunk. But I do think that the pregnant woman in Bran's vision was Old Nan and her vengeance might be related to that crow deceived her.

[Ser Charles of Rosehaven]

There are several threads that I posted my opinions about this.

I think Old Nan's Brandon was the son of Artos. Old Nan was a wildling captured at the Battle of Longlake. I guess she was pregnant and very close to giving birth in order to be taken as a wetnurse. She told Bran that all crows are liars. That is why I think a crow deceived her and he was the father of Old Nan's child. This makes it impossible for the woman Dunk kissed to be Old Nan. I think Hodor carries the blood of the giants as Osha suspected, not Dunk. But I do think that the pregnant woman in Bran's vision was Old Nan and her vengeance might be related to that crow deceived her.

[Ser Charles of Rosehaven]

The old gods are cruel. RR was to far to the south to have old nans bloodthirsty vengative son slaying crows over there

[The Imperator]

Wonder if we'll even see Old Nan again.