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cat-of-the-canals

Could Dany be Azor Ahai?

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Melisandre said, "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, he shall be born amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." Dany woke the dragons out of their stone eggs. She was in fire which would be smoke, but I'm not sure what the salt would be. Then after all this the red comet/star was seen and summer ended into fall, which would be the darkness gathering. Another thing I'm not sure of is that she wasn't really born during this. Maybe she was "reborn" in some way...



I think it could be Dany, but I'm not really sure. I'm pretty sure it's not Stannis though, like Melisandre says. So, what are your thoughts?


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Melisandre is repeating an old prophecy from ancient books in Asshai, where she originally comes from.



"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."



Melisandre changes some words, and leaves out huge chunks.



“When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.”



Stars become singular, like she's making events fit. The red comet, for instance. Where does the prophecy mention dragons?


Melisandre has a history of not reading the flames correctly.




Stannis does not have Lightbringer either.



Salladhor tells Davos - “That sword was not Lightbringer, my friend”



Maester Aemon had Sam describe the sword in detail, then says to Sam - “The sword is wrong, she has to know that ... light without heat ... an empty glamour ... the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness.”




Where Dany comes into what's being said is from elsewhere. It's Haldon Halfmeaster talking to Tyrion.



“Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned ... and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end ... death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …”



The words of the ancient prophecy are bent to suit whatever the speaker wants them to say. Both are wrong, unless both are right, but, as Stannis does not hold Lightbringer, and Dany doesn't even hold a sword..... We can take it both must be wrong.




Back to Melisandre, even when there's a clear message in the flames, she's flummoxed.



“I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.”



I don't read that as saying Jon is Azor Ahai. It's more focus on Jon, who needs help, rather than Stannis, who doesn't need her as much as she's persuaded herself she needs him.


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Dany could be AAR, but I personally lean towards it being Jon. Too many hints in the last book to ignore.

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(This is my first post since joining, though.)



Could Dany be Azor Ahai? If we think that only circumstances and possession of objects such as the Lightbringer Sword can make or break a persona, perhaps Dany could later come across some kind of sword that is capable of killing an Other - made of obsidian, toughened with spells and capable of emitting flames, maybe. But I don't hold stock with just circumstances. I think if Dany is Azor Ahai, she must grow into it. She has the capacity of learning from her mistakes, but she's still a bit young and naive, don't you think? Merely an idealistic desire to 'rid the world of evils' won't work here. But that's just my opinion.


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Obvious answer is yes. Jon, is the run away favorite but know one mentions Young Giff.

No one really mentions him because there's nothing to mention. He has no dragons, he has no lightbringer. Even if he were a real Targaryan (which is very much in doubt), there's absolutely nothing that links him to the prophecy.

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I was very convinced from the moment I read about the prophecy that Dany is Azor Ahai, and let's face it, she's got a lot of things going in her favor. Being born in the middle of a sea-storm, being immune to fire, dragons (obviously), having a lot of people like Quaithe advising her and warning her about dangers in her future etc. But after reading the last few books, I've started to believe that Jon has to be AA. He's grown so much since the first book, he killed Others, became Lord Commander, and there's that thing when Mel looks into the fire and sees 'only Snow'. I don't know, but Jon is my favorite at the moment.



But I've also been thinking about the Prince who was Promised. I think (I'm not sure) that the only person who uses that exact phrase is Master Aemon, while Mel keeps using the title Azor Ahai. Do you guys think that PwwP and AA are the same person, or are they two separate people? I've read a similar comment about that in another thread somewhere, and it really got me wondering.


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I was very convinced from the moment I read about the prophecy that Dany is Azor Ahai, and let's face it, she's got a lot of things going in her favor. Being born in the middle of a sea-storm, being immune to fire, dragons (obviously), having a lot of people like Quaithe advising her and warning her about dangers in her future etc. But after reading the last few books, I've started to believe that Jon has to be AA. He's grown so much since the first book, he killed Others, became Lord Commander, and there's that thing when Mel looks into the fire and sees 'only Snow'. I don't know, but Jon is my favorite at the moment.

But I've also been thinking about the Prince who was Promised. I think (I'm not sure) that the only person who uses that exact phrase is Master Aemon, while Mel keeps using the title Azor Ahai. Do you guys think that PwwP and AA are the same person, or are they two separate people? I've read a similar comment about that in another thread somewhere, and it really got me wondering.

I think they are the same person. The prophecies overlap too much to be just a coincidence. Also, we are getting these different prophecies from different cultures, but Aemon and Melisandre seem to use the terms interchangeably, as though they know they are talking about the same person.

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I think they are the same person. The prophecies overlap too much to be just a coincidence. Also, we are getting these different prophecies from different cultures, but Aemon and Melisandre seem to use the terms interchangeably, as though they know they are talking about the same person.

Good point.

But I do think it's interesting to see how Jon slowly grew into the role of possibly being AA/PwwP, when we were led into thinking it was Dany from her first chapter (at least that's how I see it).

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Good point.

But I do think it's interesting to see how Jon slowly grew into the role of possibly being AA/PwwP, when we were led into thinking it was Dany from her first chapter (at least that's how I see it).

I completely agree. I also thought it had to be Dany until the last book, when suddenly we are given a bunch of evidence that makes us think "hmm, maybe it was too obvious".

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I very much doubt that Azor Ahai, The Prince that was Promised, the Last Hero or any other prophecised messiah is going to be just one person. Both Dany and Jon have heaps of evidence pointing to them being AAR/TPTWP, so why can't it end up being both of them?


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It's always helpful to read the words characters use over a few times when it's something as significant as an ancient prophecy. Mind you, even in the real word two people can read the same words and make something else from them.



Benerro and Melisandre omit and replace significant wording. Yet, both claim they're right. It's the way spin doctors work.



Try to make sense any of Nostradamus' predictions or prophecies. People read the foretelling of Napoleon and Hitler from them. Once the prediction concerning two brothers was regarded as referring to the Kennedys. Later, others decided it pointed to World Trade Center's twin towers.


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I completely agree. I also thought it had to be Dany until the last book, when suddenly we are given a bunch of evidence that makes us think "hmm, maybe it was too obvious".

Exactly my thinking. ADwD is just full of signs pointing to Jon, but I do think that there are still so many important things that revolve around Dany. She is definitely going to have a major role in the big climax, being the fire in A Song of Ice and Fire.

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I was very convinced from the moment I read about the prophecy that Dany is Azor Ahai, and let's face it, she's got a lot of things going in her favor. Being born in the middle of a sea-storm, being immune to fire, dragons (obviously), having a lot of people like Quaithe advising her and warning her about dangers in her future etc. But after reading the last few books, I've started to believe that Jon has to be AA. He's grown so much since the first book, he killed Others, became Lord Commander, and there's that thing when Mel looks into the fire and sees 'only Snow'. I don't know, but Jon is my favorite at the moment.

But I've also been thinking about the Prince who was Promised. I think (I'm not sure) that the only person who uses that exact phrase is Master Aemon, while Mel keeps using the title Azor Ahai. Do you guys think that PwwP and AA are the same person, or are they two separate people? I've read a similar comment about that in another thread somewhere, and it really got me wondering.

Dany is not immune to fire.

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Dany is not immune to fire.

You're right, I wrote that without thinking. Thanks for the correction, though ;)

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You're right, I wrote that without thinking. Thanks for the correction, though ;)

No problem.

and to answer op's question.

If we go by the prophecy Danys has been reborn amidst salt and smoke has woken dragons from stone.SO she seems like the candidate.But as sj4 pointed out in the last books there is a lot of evidence of Jon being the AAR.Still I think Dany and Jon would be fundamental in the War for Dawn.

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No problem.

and to answer op's question.

If we go by the prophecy Danys has been reborn amidst salt and smoke has woken dragons from stone.SO she seems like the candidate.But as sj4 pointed out in the last books there is a lot of evidence of Jon being the AAR.Still I think Dany and Jon would be fundamental in the War for Dawn.

Ok, obviously I didn't pay attention enough, but I didn't really notice any evidence for Jon. So, could you give me examples of the evidence? The only one I caught was how Melisandre only saw Jon in the fire when she was looking for Azor Ahai.

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Ok, obviously I didn't pay attention enough, but I didn't really notice any evidence for Jon. So, could you give me examples of the evidence? The only one I caught was how Melisandre only saw Jon in the fire when she was looking for Azor Ahai.

Ok I think how Melisandre only saw Jon in the fire when she was looking for Azor Ahai. is the basic one.I will re-read to find more because I remember there is one more important one.

But the downside is that Jon hasn't woken any dragons from stone.

All that said I'm not sure about either of them just think jon is more likely to AAR than Dany.

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Ok, obviously I didn't pay attention enough, but I didn't really notice any evidence for Jon. So, could you give me examples of the evidence? The only one I caught was how Melisandre only saw Jon in the fire when she was looking for Azor Ahai.

1. Melisandre sees Jon in her flames when she searches for Azor Ahai.

2. Jon has a dream that he is holding a flaming sword and fighting the dead.

3. Jon scoffs at Melisandre's vision of "a promised prince, born in smoke and salt" right before he is stabbed amongst smoke and salt.

4. Mormont's raven calls him "King Jon Snow"...the first time the bird has ever call him by his full name.

Then you have examples if foreshadowing:

1. Jon says that a sword like Lightbringer would be useful on the Wall.

2. Gilly kneels and Jon tells her that she didn't need to because "that's only for kings".

3. Jon says "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine".

4. Dragons are mentioned and Jon can see them.

So we get a lot of hints, big and little, that Jon is Azor Ahai and also the King in ADWD.

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