The Relationship between Illyrio and House Redwyne

[Tourney Knight]

This is an interesting topic. Perhaps there are alliances ready to rise for when Aegon reveals himself. Most of those probably have to do with the Reach.

[TheLastStark]

I would say most are probably in Dorne, the Reach would likely have the second most.

[Mithras]

Here is another strange thing about the Redwynes:

Lesser tracts were granted to Lord Rowan, and set aside for Lord Tarly, Lady Oakheart, Lord Hightower, and other worthies not present. Lord Redwyne asked only for thirty years’ remission of the taxes that Littlefinger and his wine factors had levied on certain of the Arbor’s finest vintages. When that was granted, he pronounced himself well satisfied and suggested that they send for a cask of Arbor gold, to toast good King Joffrey and his wise and benevolent Hand.

While the spoils of war were being shared after the victory at Blackwater, Paxter Redwyne required a relatively small reward. It is true that he did not participate in the Battle of Blackwater and did not earn much but still, he served them Arbor Gold after getting the remission of taxes. It is known that Arbor Gold is best suited to wash lies down.

“We shall serve him lies and Arbor gold, and he’ll drink them down and ask for more, I promise you.”

So, what might Redwyne be hiding?

[Mithras]

The prince [Aerion Targaryen] had all but ceased to struggle. His eyes were purple and full of terror. Dunk had a sudden urge to grab one and pop it like a grape between two steel fingers, but that would not be knightly. “YIELD!” he shouted.

Aerion Targaryen. Purple eyes. Likened to grapes.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Here is another strange thing about the Redwynes:

Lesser tracts were granted to Lord Rowan, and set aside for Lord Tarly, Lady Oakheart, Lord Hightower, and other worthies not present. Lord Redwyne asked only for thirty years’ remission of the taxes that Littlefinger and his wine factors had levied on certain of the Arbor’s finest vintages. When that was granted, he pronounced himself well satisfied and suggested that they send for a cask of Arbor gold, to toast good King Joffrey and his wise and benevolent Hand.

While the spoils of war were being shared after the victory at Blackwater, Paxter Redwyne required a relatively small reward. It is true that he did not participate in the Battle of Blackwater and did not earn much but still, he served them Arbor Gold after getting the remission of taxes. It is known that Arbor Gold is best suited to wash lies down.

“We shall serve him lies and Arbor gold, and he’ll drink them down and ask for more, I promise you.”

So, what might Redwyne be hiding?

"The honor is mine." The merchant rummaged about in the back of his stall and produced a small oaken cask. Burned into the wood was a cluster of grapes. "The Redwyne sigil," he said, pointing, "for the Arbor. There is no finer drink."

It's interesting that Varys chooses Arbor wine to attempt to poison Dany. Does all Arbor wine carry the Redwyne sigil or was this a special cask? Does Varys and Illyrio have more Arbor wine available than other wines? Was is poisoned there or back in the Arbor or by Varys? Do the Redwyne support Varys, Illyrio and Aegon?

The Redwynes are famously pro-Targ. Both Viserys and Dany mention this. Did they choose Arbor wine because Dany would find it irresistable to try a "friendly" wine.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Absolutely. And the Hightowers are "all in" too.

[Mithras]

A dozen caravan guards had come running. With them was the master himself, Merchant Captain Byan Votyris, a diminutive Norvoshi with skin like old leather and a bristling blue mustachio that swept up to his ears. He seemed to know what had happened without a word being spoken. “Take this one away to await the pleasure of the khal,” he commanded, gesturing at the man on the ground. Two guards hauled the wineseller to his feet. “His goods I gift to you as well, Princess,” the merchant captain went on. “Small token of regret, that one of mine would do this thing.”

Shit, I have never noticed this before. The wineseller was an employee of a Norvoshi Merchant Captain. And he understood the poisoning attempt at once. Like he knew it.

[Mithras]

"The honor is mine." The merchant rummaged about in the back of his stall and produced a small oaken cask. Burned into the wood was a cluster of grapes. "The Redwyne sigil," he said, pointing, "for the Arbor. There is no finer drink."

It's interesting that Varys chooses Arbor wine to attempt to poison Dany. Does all Arbor wine carry the Redwyne sigil or was this a special cask? Does Varys and Illyrio have more Arbor wine available than other wines? Was is poisoned there or back in the Arbor or by Varys? Do the Redwyne support Varys, Illyrio and Aegon?

The Redwynes are famously pro-Targ. Both Viserys and Dany mention this. Did they choose Arbor wine because Dany would find it irresistable to try a "friendly" wine.

I think Illyrio made the arrangements. Varys only sent the word.

[Lost Melnibonean]

A dozen caravan guards had come running. With them was the master himself, Merchant Captain Byan Votyris, a diminutive Norvoshi with skin like old leather and a bristling blue mustachio that swept up to his ears. He seemed to know what had happened without a word being spoken. Take this one away to await the pleasure of the khal, he commanded, gesturing at the man on the ground. Two guards hauled the wineseller to his feet. His goods I gift to you as well, Princess, the merchant captain went on. Small token of regret, that one of mine would do this thing.

Shit, I have never noticed this before. The wineseller was an employee of a Norvoshi Merchant Captain. And he understood the poisoning attempt at once. Like he knew it.

I had always assumed that the merchant captain knew of the plot since his caravan was out of Pentos. What do you think the signifigance is of his being of Norvos?

[Mithras]

I had always assumed that the merchant captain knew of the plot since his caravan was out of Pentos. What do you think the signifigance is of his being of Norvos?

Mellario :)

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Mellario :)

It is interesting that he's Norvoshi. I present three possibilities:

1) Despite being Norvoshi, he still works for Illyrio and knew about the plot.

2) The poisoning attempt is actually a Dornish plot. This would be quite a twist. The Varys-Illyrio plot was aborted only to have a Dornish one go forward.

3) The plot was still Varys and Illyrio's but he's a Dornish spy who is simply watching the whole thing play out.

[Veltigar]

I have always thought that Olenna tale about how she seduced Lord Tyrell was total bullshit. Imo, Lord Tyrell was a consolation price, offered because a Targaryen princeling spurned her. We know all Egg's sons married for love and that caused a lot of bad blood. The most obvious houses to get Targaryen brides at the time are those that have a big presence at sea, since the Blackfyre's are still a threat and it's better to make sure that they can't get to Westeros in the first place.

Since then I suppose the Redwynes have been sympathetic to the Blackfyre cause. For now, they are still banking on the Tyrell horse for Olenna's sake, but when they get their asses handed to them by Euron, they'll switch side to Faegon I think.

[Gendry_Goldeneyes]

Here is another strange thing about the Redwynes:

Lesser tracts were granted to Lord Rowan, and set aside for Lord Tarly, Lady Oakheart, Lord Hightower, and other worthies not present. Lord Redwyne asked only for thirty years’ remission of the taxes that Littlefinger and his wine factors had levied on certain of the Arbor’s finest vintages. When that was granted, he pronounced himself well satisfied and suggested that they send for a cask of Arbor gold, to toast good King Joffrey and his wise and benevolent Hand.

While the spoils of war were being shared after the victory at Blackwater, Paxter Redwyne required a relatively small reward. It is true that he did not participate in the Battle of Blackwater and did not earn much but still, he served them Arbor Gold after getting the remission of taxes. It is known that Arbor Gold is best suited to wash lies down.

“We shall serve him lies and Arbor gold, and he’ll drink them down and ask for more, I promise you.”

So, what might Redwyne be hiding?

i was under the impression that Redwyne knew about the plot to kill joff between Littlefinger and Olenna. Theres also a part where Littlefinger is offered to go seduce Lysa Arryn, and he makes a quip, and Rowan and Redwyne share a look. (as if they knew that little finger was going to be doing just that)

I do like this theory about Redwyne being tied to Illriyo but my one issue is, Olenna Tyrell being a Redwyne. Nd her tying the Tyrells to the Lannister cause.....

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I have always thought that Olenna tale about how she seduced Lord Tyrell was total bullshit. Imo, Lord Tyrell was a consolation price, offered because a Targaryen princeling spurned her. We know all Egg's sons married for love and that caused a lot of bad blood. The most obvious houses to get Targaryen brides at the time are those that have a big presence at sea, since the Blackfyre's are still a threat and it's better to make sure that they can't get to Westeros in the first place.

Since then I suppose the Redwynes have been sympathetic to the Blackfyre cause. For now, they are still banking on the Tyrell horse for Olenna's sake, but when they get their asses handed to them by Euron, they'll switch side to Faegon I think.

It's just that the Tyrells are pro-Targ as well. So, will the Redwynes and the Tyrells ever be in conflict? I suppose if one of them backs Aegon and the other Dany, but I don't know if we have any info on which they would prefer.

[Veltigar]

It's just that the Tyrells are pro-Targ as well. So, will the Redwynes and the Tyrells ever be in conflict? I suppose if one of them backs Aegon and the other Dany, but I don't know if we have any info on which they would prefer.

The Tyrells are in it for themselves at the moment. They don't want to back any of them.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

So, I did some research on Arbor wine versus Dornish wine so see if anything popped out. I checked all five books and this is what I've discovered.

1) Arbor wine is way more popular than Dornish wine

2) Arbor wine is usually the drink at celebrations - Joffrey's wedding, Littlefinger's hosting of the Vale lords, (f)Arya's wedding, Luceon Frey's hosting of the Most Devout, Chataya's brothel

3) Arbor wine is the drink for poisoning people - Dany at the market, Tyrion poisoning Cersei, Joffrey's poisoning

4) Davos says Arbor wine is very expensive in Braavos, yet Arya sees a cog in Braavos being unloaded with it.

5) Certain characters have a strong preference for Arbor Gold: namely Dany, Lazy Leo and the wine seller. Cersei claims to prefer Arbor Gold, but does drink Dornish as well.

6) Dornish wine is pretty rare is our story. Outside of Dorne, its drunk only four times: by Tyrion with Janos, by Cersei with Kevan (weird since Cersei claims she doesn't like it and Kevan hardly touches it), by Jamie and Loras, by Illyrio and Tyrion

7) Oberyn has a strong hatred of Arbor and preference for Dornish wine

8) Illyrio has both Arbor and Dornish in his collection, but the Arbor wine is from the Redwyne stock.

9) The rat cook uses Dornish wine

10) Random extras:

a) the Myraham captain trades in Arbor wine

b) Hizdahr likes Arbor wine

c) Quentyn poses as a Dornish wine merchant looking for new markets

So, all in all, nothing earth-shattering. There may be some political leanings towards Redwynes with Arbor wine, but Arbor wine seems to be the standard, expensive party wine so its tough to pin point people allegences just because they drink it. Dornish and alcoholics drink Dornish wine. Everyone else drinks Arbor Gold. Even people that are clearly pro-Redwyne like Dany and Loras try or attempt to try Dornish wine. And even Oberyn, who would dislike the Redwynes and Arbor wine, reluctantly drinks it and frequents a brothel that serves it.

The most curious thing is the Arbor wine cog in Braavos. Yes, Arbor wine is supposed to be expensive, but Davos specifically makes a point about it being expensive in Braavos and Ibben. Does Arbor Gold not make it to Braavos and Ibben very much? Why not? Yet, Arya sees a cog unloading it. Curious.

[Mithras]

It is interesting that he's Norvoshi. I present three possibilities:

1) Despite being Norvoshi, he still works for Illyrio and knew about the plot.

2) The poisoning attempt is actually a Dornish plot. This would be quite a twist. The Varys-Illyrio plot was aborted only to have a Dornish one go forward.

3) The plot was still Varys and Illyrio's but he's a Dornish spy who is simply watching the whole thing play out.

It all depends on how much Doran/Mellario are in fAegon conspiracy.

(1) From a realistic point of view, Doran should have no problem with Aegon being fake because he can give him his heart’s desire (vengeance) equally well. In addition, he can promise him positions in the court and take Arianne as his queen. Hence, Doran might be in a position to know everything about fAegon conspiracy. In this case, he can easily let the exile Targaryens die. Doran would definitely not like a fAegon/Dany marriage because fAegon has the best claim and it blocks Arianne's queenship.

(2) Or Doran/Mellario might be involved like JonCon, believing that the boy is real. In that case, their involvement should be a secret because JonCon does not know that Lemore is Mellario and Doran is already in the team. In this case, Illyrio and Varys have to appear as Targaryen loyalists and seem to be helping the exile Targaryens just like they are preparing fAegon. So, the plots to kill the exile Targaryens should be hidden from Doran/Mellario just like JonCon has no idea about the real arrangements of Illyrio.

(3) Or Doran is not in fAegon conspiracy but he is secretly keeping his eyes on the exile Targaryens with the aim of restoring them. At the same time, Varys and Illyrio are trying to get the exile Targaryens killed before they introduce fAegon to Doran. With fAegon as the only Targaryen left, Doran would be more willing to accept his “nephew”, which is crucial in supplying legitimacy to fAegon. After all, if his uncle does not accept him, who would? Again in this case, Illyrio and Varys have to appear as Targaryen loyalists and seem to be helping the exile Targaryens. Their efforts in “helping” the exile Targaryens should look sincere and they should be done in front of Doran’s “secret” informants while pretending that Varys/Illyrio do not notice them.

For example the Archon of Tyrosh is a close friend of Doran and his brother was present when Illyrio brokered the marriage between Dany and Drogo. I think he might have reported to Doran that Illyrio was a good Targaryen loyalist and he made the arrangement for Viserys to sell Dany in return of a Dothraki horde. Probably neither he nor Doran has a single idea about the Dothraki way, so they do not know that this marriage was actually the death sentence of Dany and Viserys.

In that sense, this Norvoshi Merchant Captain might be a Dornish spy as well, who would report to Doran that Dany was poisoned by the order of Robert. Since he seems to know the poisoning plot, he must be a double agent in that case.

According to this third scheme, the Epilogue of ADwD makes sense because that vivid (and mostly BS) advertisement of fAegon requires an audience and George does not use that kind of explanation for the readers. So, the observer in that scene (probably Qyburn) might be another “secret” informant of Doran who will report him that Aegon lives and he has come.

[Mithras]

I have always thought that Olenna tale about how she seduced Lord Tyrell was total bullshit. Imo, Lord Tyrell was a consolation price, offered because a Targaryen princeling spurned her. We know all Egg's sons married for love and that caused a lot of bad blood. The most obvious houses to get Targaryen brides at the time are those that have a big presence at sea, since the Blackfyre's are still a threat and it's better to make sure that they can't get to Westeros in the first place.

Since then I suppose the Redwynes have been sympathetic to the Blackfyre cause. For now, they are still banking on the Tyrell horse for Olenna's sake, but when they get their asses handed to them by Euron, they'll switch side to Faegon I think.

We do not know who Olenna’s presumed Targaryen prince was. Some people claim that it was Duncan Targaryen although my personal favorite is Aerion’s infant son.

I think Olenna was spurned big time and she never forgave Targaryens for that. She lied about how she tried to avoid the Targaryen marriage. Once she got the position to rule House Tyrell effectively, both House Redwyne and House Tyrell became secret haters of Targs. I think that showed itself in Robert’s Rebellion. Mace and Paxter sat on their asses while Robert was destroying the Targs.

BTW, that seduction of Lord Tyrell was in the show only.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

It all depends on how much Doran/Mellario are in fAegon conspiracy.

Well, I fall into the camp of believing that Doran and Illyrio are the two players when Varys said "this is no longer a game for two players."

While Illyrio/Varys are looking to crown (f)Aegon, Doran is trying to crown Arianne. Dany, her dragons and any neo-Ninepenny Kings are just possible means to these ends.

On neo-Ninepenny Kings, though, I see the cities backing horses (Aegon or Dany) rather than sponsors (Illyrio or Doran):

For example, at the beginning of AGoT, it seems Pentos, Lys, Tyrosh, Ibben, Braavos, the Dothraki, the Summer Islands and the Volantis Tigers all back Dany.

Dany, though, takes on Jorah, which causes her to lose Lys. Drogo dies, so she loses the Dothraki. She hatches dragons, which causes her to lose Braavos and she goes anti-slavery, which causes her to lose Tyrosh.

Meanwhile, as a rival, Aegon picks up Lys and the Volantis Elephants because they go so violently anti-Dany (probably because of the slavery issue).

Now, Norvos is clearly with Doran and will probably go wherever he tells them to go. I imagine they don't like the fall of slavery since they use slave armies as protection against the Dothraki.

[eternal_got]

Rolly Duckfield = Denys Redwyne (Leyton Hightower's unseen grandson)

:lol: