Brandon's illegitimate child

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And it seems he never led her on.

Barbey suffered no stigma, for seems Brandon didn't brag about like an ass or kept going on with the affair when became betroth to Cat.

He kept the affair after the betrothal. He told him "yeah, southron ambitions...". Or so says Barbrey. What about Ashara Dayne? Dornish or not, many think she was dishonoured. And she did get pregnant.

As I said, I'm not saying Barbrey was completely innocent, in her specific case. But Brandon did have a position of power in the North and, if he had any other affair with any other Northern lady, he probably didn't forced them or told them "do as I said" but it was a compromising position, like being seduced by your boss or a teacher. There is a conflict of interests there.

[Ingelheim]

He kept the affair after the betrothal. He told him "yeah, southron ambitions...". Or so says Barbrey. What about Ashara Dayne? Dornish or not, many think she was dishonoured. And she did get pregnant.

As I said, I'm not saying Barbrey was completely innocent, in her specific case. But Brandon did have a position of power in the North and, if he had any other affair with any other Northern lady, he probably didn't forced them or told them "do as I said" but it was a compromising position, like being seduced by your boss or a teacher. There is a conflict of interests there.

Brandon was actually a really good looking guy. I doubt Eddadrd could have gotten as many chicks as Brandon got.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Brandon was actually a really good looking guy. I doubt Eddadrd could have gotten as many chicks as Brandon got.

He wasn't going to be the Lord of Winterfell either. Being a lord Paramount adds bonus to the hotness scale: Robert, Brandon, Edmure...

[Wmarshal]

He kept the affair after the betrothal. He told him "yeah, southron ambitions...". Or so says Barbrey. What about Ashara Dayne? Dornish or not, many think she was dishonoured. And she did get pregnant.

As I said, I'm not saying Barbrey was completely innocent, in her specific case. But Brandon did have a position of power in the North and, if he had any other affair with any other Northern lady, he probably didn't forced them or told them "do as I said" but it was a compromising position, like being seduced by your boss or a teacher. There is a conflict of interests there.

He told her he had to marry another, nothing of he bedded her after he was betroth. As to Ashara Dayne, he bedded her at Harrenhal, before he became engage to Cat. The only one that thinks that was Barry. No one even knows who the father really was.

Brandon could not force any woman or actually a intimidate someone like this, rape is even in this world against the law.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He told her he had to marry another, nothing of he bedded her after he was betroth. As to Ashara Dayne, he bedded her at Harrenhal, before he became engage to Cat. The only one that thinks that was Barry. No one even knows who the father really was.

Brandon could not force any woman or actually a intimidate someone like this, rape is even in this world against the law.

You don't need to actually intimidate someone verbally to force a person. For example, at least in my country, people from the army or navy can only date those who are in their same rank, because it creates a conflict if you date a superior.

And IICR, Cat betrothal was arranged when she was 12, and Brandon was what, 15? 16?

[David Selig]

He told her he had to marry another, nothing of he bedded her after he was betroth.

Actually the betrothal was made years before Brandon broke up with Barbry. Cat was only 12 when it was done.

*edit* ninja'd.

[Wmarshal]

You don't need to actually intimidate someone verbally to force a person. For example, at least in my country, people from the army or navy can only date those who are in their same rank, because it creates a conflict if you date a superior.

And IICR, Cat betrothal was arranged when she was 12, and Brandon was what, 15? 16?

I really don't see the force here, if you have the power to say no and the other is not pushing you to do anything how is it a from of rape?

You are right, he was engaged to Cat for 6 years.

Just incase you try to use this on me in other threads, it seems Brandon did not even meet Cat till after Harrenhal, but I could be wrong.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

So Brandon died 15 years ago, as of the opening of AGoT. We're looking for boys who are (or would have been) around 14 or 15 at the start of the series, and girls anywhere from say 14 up to let's say 18 to allow for his playing around even more than we know.

I think it's likely he had more than one, unless he made every conquest sign a contract that she would drink moon tea, and it's not like he could have enforced that anyway.

[devilish]

Darkstar is indeed too old- in his 20's. If Brandon did have sex with Ashara and she did get pregnant and the child wasn't stillborn, it would still be Jons/Robbs age plus a year or less.

Eddard married Catelyn after his brother's death and he had kids after he married her. Therefore any kids Brandon may have had are older to Robb Stark

[Pecan]

Allyria Dayne makes the most sense as a Brandon bastard. If Ashara was pregnant and unwed, then it would have made the most sense for her to stay out of site until the baby was born, which gives some credence to the notion that she was at the TOJ with Lyanna, and that Wylla was probably there as well. We know that following the TOJ, that Ned returned Dawn to Starfall and we also know that a few years after that, when the heir is born, they name him Edric and call him "Ned", which implies the Daynes thought pretty highly of Ned Stark for some reason. Simply returning Dawn to Starfall probably doesn't get the heir named after you, especially since it's pretty much the right thing to do and since you and your bros killed the previous holder of it. But, seeing Ashara and her baby girl safely back to Starfall and then going along with the cover story that the baby is the offspring of Ashara's mother, that's pretty big. In that context, you can see how naming the heir "Edric" is sort of a tip of the cap in Ned's direction, letting him know that they know that he did them a real solid.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

People, we don't even know WHEN Ashara got pregnant (IF she did). So how could we possibly know who the father of her child was?

The cover story (at least as Barristan heard it) on her alleged suicide is that she was already grieving for her stillborn child when she learned of Arthur's death, and that's when she lost it and jumped from the tower.

If Brandon was the father of this baby, that means it's been about a year (maybe more) and she's still in pretty deep grief. I know that the pain of losing a child never goes away, but she should have been through the worst before a year had passed. If in fact she did kill herself, and if in fact she lost a baby, it makes far more sense that she killed herself not too long after the child's stillbirth.

[Pecan]

People, we don't even know WHEN Ashara got pregnant (IF she did). So how could we possibly know who the father of her child was?

The cover story (at least as Barristan heard it) on her alleged suicide is that she was already grieving for her stillborn child when she learned of Arthur's death, and that's when she lost it and jumped from the tower.

If Brandon was the father of this baby, that means it's been about a year (maybe more) and she's still in pretty deep grief. I know that the pain of losing a child never goes away, but she should have been through the worst before a year had passed. If in fact she did kill herself, and if in fact she lost a baby, it makes far more sense that she killed herself not too long after the child's stillbirth.

It's true we know very little. We know the bit about a Stark "dishonoring" her, which almost certainly wasn't Ned Stark, and we know that the heir to Starfall for some reason was given the name Edric and called "Ned", and we know that since the age of Edric's aunt Allyria hasn't been disclosed, it's at least possible that she was born around the correct time. And we also know that Edric is familiar enough with the Starks to know about Jon Snow being his milk brother, so he was told something about them, and presumably Ned Stark in particular. And we also know that the Daynes are important in some way because they keep coming up.

[Squab]

It's true we know very little. We know the bit about a Stark "dishonoring" her, which almost certainly wasn't Ned Stark, and we know that the heir to Starfall for some reason was given the name Edric and called "Ned", and we know that since the age of Edric's aunt Allyria hasn't been disclosed, it's at least possible that she was born around the correct time. And we also know that Edric is familiar enough with the Starks to know about Jon Snow being his milk brother, so he was told something about them, and presumably Ned Stark in particular. And we also know that the Daynes are important in some way because they keep coming up.

Do we know a Stark dishonoured her or did she just turn to a stark after being dishonoured at Harrenhal. Seems a long bow to draw to assume it was Brandon in either case

[RumHam]

Do we know a Stark dishonoured her or did she just turn to a stark after being dishonoured at Harrenhal. Seems a long bow to draw to assume it was Brandon in either case

Barristan is talking about her turning to a Stark over him romantically. He would not be regretting letting a Stark comfort Ashara all these years later.

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

That seems to indicate that the Stark who dishonored her at Harrenhal was dead. That narrows it down to Brandon.

[Pecan]

Do we know a Stark dishonoured her or did she just turn to a stark after being dishonoured at Harrenhal. Seems a long bow to draw to assume it was Brandon in either case

There does seem to be some ambiguity in the passage. It isn't 100% clear that the man she turned to (Stark) was also the man who dishonored her. But it does seem to point in that direction if you assume that "dishonor" means sex and the one she turned to was the one she had sex with.

I also wonder, how would Barristan, or anyone else for that matter, know that she'd been "dishonored"? Probably, it was just some rumor going around - people gossiping and what not.

However, iIf she and Brandon did make sweet beautiful love at the tourney, and a child was conceived, the timeline may not work for her to have a newborn at the TOJ. If I'm not mistaken, the TOJ is at least 2 years after the tourney at Harrenhall. But I'm not as good on the timeline as some others here.

[WSmith84]

She didn't want to be his casual lover, she wanted more.

This is my problem with mostly sex that happens in Westeros. It's not like in our time when mostly men and women are in equal conditions and we can do whatever they want because we have information and contraception and it's both men's and women's obligation to be responsible about that. There are no condoms in Westeros and it's harder for some minor ladies to have moon tea if there are no Maesters around. And, even if they avoid pregnancy, there is a stigma about have been "dishonoured". It sucks, but it's their rules and those rules aren't going to change suddenly.

Men, in Westeros, are more experienced and knowing about sex that many women. Many ladies are probably closer to be like Sansa than Cersei, and they meet their husbands thinking sex is magic and flowers, and the most they know is how the whole thing works in a biological manner. And it's very easy to fool such girls specially when you're in a position of power like Brandon was. Barbrey said herself: her own father didn't mind if any Stark could have liked her as long as he eventually married her. I'm sure Brandon knew that, as future Lord of Winterfell, many lords would be glad to offer him their daughters. It's not the same case than prostitutes, who know that they won't marry them and it's all a transaction, and know how to avoid having children. I'm not saying that Brandon was completely evil and Lady Dustin was an innocent flower either, but Brandon definitely had an advantage there that Barbrey didn't.

Wouldn't this mean that pretty much every romance in the series between two people of differing social status should be seen this way? Rhaegar and Lyanna? Dany and Daario? Asha and Qarl? Robb and Jeyne? Wouldn't the first person in each of these romances be exerting this same pressure (arguably the women are exerting less, due to the sexist nature of Planetos)?

[A Bastard Snow]

There does seem to be some ambiguity in the passage. It isn't 100% clear that the man she turned to (Stark) was also the man who dishonored her. But it does seem to point in that direction if you assume that "dishonor" means sex and the one she turned to was the one she had sex with.

I also wonder, how would Barristan, or anyone else for that matter, know that she'd been "dishonored"? Probably, it was just some rumor going around - people gossiping and what not.

However, iIf she and Brandon did make sweet beautiful love at the tourney, and a child was conceived, the timeline may not work for her to have a newborn at the TOJ. If I'm not mistaken, the TOJ is at least 2 years after the tourney at Harrenhall. But I'm not as good on the timeline as some others here.

Yea the ToJ was around 2 years later (A Year+Several months)

Also its possible that if her child did survive that the wetnurse sent to the ToJ was the same one who nursed Ashara's child.(There had to have been a Wetnurse at the tower otherwise a newborn would not have survived the trip to Starfall)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Wouldn't this mean that pretty much every romance in the series between two people of differing social status should be seen this way? Rhaegar and Lyanna? Dany and Daario? Asha and Qarl? Robb and Jeyne? Wouldn't the first person in each of these romances be exerting this same pressure (arguably the women are exerting less, due to the sexist nature of Planetos)?

Well, depends on the situation. In the case of Brandon and Lady Dustin, I think he was taking advantage of his position. In the other cases you mention, not at all. Robert's case, yes, as he was the King and you can't tell "no" to a King. Arianne, for instance, sees her lovers as her equals. And Cersei think she's exerting power to the men she sleeps with while she's the one being fooled.

[King of Winter-ish Stuff]

I'm very curious about who this could be. There is evidence to suggest Brandon had at least one child before dying ( SSM)

I've heard Dominic Bolton named as one possibility, but I'm not sure of his age. With his mother being Lady Dustin's sister I think its possible. Darkstar with Ashara Dayne, although I think he's too old.

Any thoughts on who it might be and if it impacts the story at all?

My money is on Domeric Bolton. It would lend more credence to why Barbrey Dustin hates the Starks. She loved Brandon. He took her maidenhead. But it was her sister that conceived a Stark child. I find it hard to believe that she has nursed a 17 year grudge against Ned all because he didn't bring back her husband's bones.

[Pecan]

My money is on Domeric Bolton. It would lend more credence to why Barbrey Dustin hates the Starks. She loved Brandon. He took her maidenhead. But it was her sister that conceived a Stark child. I find it hard to believe that she has nursed a 17 year grudge against Ned all because he didn't bring back her husband's bones.

I think Domeric would be too old. There's that quote comparing him to Lyanna in horsemanship which suggest that he was old enough at some point for them to be compared and maybe race each other. She died in 283 and so if he was 8 when she died, he would have been born in 275. Brandon was born in 261 or 262, which would have put him as young as 13 when Domeric was born. Not impossible, but it seems unlikely.