JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 He didn't seem to think it was wrong at the time, as did he not thinkm it was wrong not to protect Aegon. TBH, Jaime couldn't have know what was going to happen to Aegon. I admit that Jaime probably said "fuck the rules" when he realised Aerys was about to get them all fried, but in that very specific scene with Rhaegar, he was not asking some impossible, so it seems. I'd even say that maybe Aerys never actually "ordered" Jaime to stay, simply mentioned that Jaime around would mean he was safe from Tywin, but Darry mentions he should obey. And Jaime begging Rhaegar means, to me at least, that it wasn't completely out of question that Rhaegar could overrule that order/wish if he had wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 TBH, Jaime couldn't have know what was going to happen to Aegon.I admit that Jaime probably said "fuck the rules" when he realised Aerys was about to get them all fried, but in that very specific scene with Rhaegar, he was not asking some impossible, so it seems.I'd even say that maybe Aerys never actually "ordered" Jaime to stay, simply mentioned that Jaime around would mean he was safe from Tywin, but Darry mentions he should obey. And Jaime begging Rhaegar means, to me at least, that it wasn't completely out of question that Rhaegar could overrule that order/wish if he had wanted to.Yet he declared him not his king and left young Aegon to the will of his father's army. Nor in that scene when he left Aegon to Tywin. I trust Barristan more in this regard more then Jaime, he may not follow the creed prefectly, but he knows it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UtherSnow Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I was recently looking at tKotLT..... to my recollection, and I havent been through every one - the Winterfell heart tree is the only weirwood that's described as 'laughing' (the one Lyanna played swords in front of presumably). Heart Trees are usually sad. This same tree is also described as grim through Cat's POV, but the smiling description comes up in a Theon DwD chapter. Thought maybe it was a hint. Lyanna might have thought it laughed too. It's the sap, when the faces were cut, that makes them seem like they're weeping. A few have some kind of 'sap-well', when it overflows, it resembles tears. Somehow, I don't see the Children of the Forest carving sad faces. Weren't they to keep watch over the Realm of Man? The laughing tree is on a shield, worn by The Mystery Knight (who may have been a crannogman.... or not). I'm just about to read the book, slowly this time. (Paper blindness it's called, I think.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Yet he declared him not his king and left young Aegon to the will of his father's army. Nor in that scene when he left Aegon to Tywin. I trust Barristan more in this regard more then Jaime, he may not follow the creed prefectly, but he knows it. Yes, tbh, Jaime's words arent' exactly proof, not because Jaime can't be trusted (that's debatable) but because it's a scene with a Jaime simply wanting to go and fight and be a bit desperate about it, not discussing the KG rulebook. This could be a good question for GRRM, though: "can the Prince give orders/overrule the King's wishes?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Yes, tbh, Jaime's words arent' exactly proof, not because Jaime can't be trusted (that's debatable) but because it's a scene with a Jaime simply wanting to go and fight and be a bit desperate about it, not discussing the KG rulebook.This could be a good question for GRRM, though: "can the Prince give orders/overrule the King's wishes?".It is, maybe world book will give us some light, does anyone know when F&B is coming or how far is he? Is he doing that one alone or are Elio and Linda putting it together as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 It is, maybe world book will give us some light, does anyone know when F&B is coming or how far is he? Is he doing that one alone or are Elio and Linda putting it together as well? I heard F and B wouldn't be put out until after he was done with ASOIAF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I heard F and B wouldn't be put out until after he was done with ASOIAF Well I guess we be waiting till 2030. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 No they can't, Barristan stated as such, only the monarch has such power. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides. Your reading and application of the first sentence (Strictly speaking, ...) is refuted by the very next sentence. I don't think I've ever seen that before.Aerys was obviously one of the kings who thought it was right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend a family member. As servants of Rhaegar, the KG would be required to obey his orders, including an order to protect someone else. The KG are only supposed to obey the King so if Aerys knew Lyanna was with Rhaegar .Considering pretty much the entire Kingdom knew Rhaegar had taken Lyanna the fact that she was not brought to KL means that the KG clearly either omitted or lied about knowing her location.If the King tells you to do something you must obey him so the fact that Lyanna was not in KL means that several members of the KG had defected to Rhaegar and only followed his orders Not at all. It simply means they had not received any orders (from Aerys) contradicting Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 It is, maybe world book will give us some light, does anyone know when F&B is coming or how far is he? Is he doing that one alone or are Elio and Linda putting it together as well? Didn't he mention he would write that AFTER ASOIAF? So, never =( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Your reading and application of the first sentence (Strictly speaking, ...) is refuted by the very next sentence. I don't think I've ever seen that before. Aerys was obviously one of the kings who thought it was right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend a family member. As servants of Rhaegar, the KG would be required to obey his orders, including an order to protect someone else. Not at all. It simply means they had not received any orders (from Aerys) contradicting Rhaegar. That passage stated only the king can decide who they protect, SERVE as you pointed out, didn't include protect others, as Barristan said to begin with only the king had such power. It was the king who decided who gets protection not Rhaegar, and I don't remember aerys telling Hightower to obey Rhaegar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 That passage stated only the king can decide who they protect, SERVE as you pointed out, didn't include protect others, as Barristan said to begin with only the king had such power. It was the king who decided who gets protection not Rhaegar, and I don't remember aerys telling Hightower to obey Rhaegar? In your eyes, the 3 Kingsguard at the tower of joy, are oathbreakers. That's fine, that is your opinion. But in the eyes of the 3 Kingsguard at the tower, they kept their vow, protecting a person in the tower, who they see at that moment is their King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 In your eyes, the 3 Kingsguard at the tower of joy, are oathbreakers. That's fine, that is your opinion. But in the eyes of the 3 Kingsguard at the tower, they kept their vow, protecting a person in the tower, who they see at that moment, as their King. How do you know this? Even a man of the KG can break their vows for what they believe is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 At this point we need a trial by combat to settle R+L=J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 At this point we need a trial by combat to settle R+L=J. I choose Sandor, strength with speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I choose Sandor, strength with speed. I choose Fire, champion of Targaryen House. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 How do you know this? Even a man of the KG can break their vows for what they believe is right. They stayed at the tower instead of going to Prince Viserys, the true heir to the throne, If baby Jon was Rhaegar's bastard, he had no right to claim the Kingsguard vow. Ned gave the 3 KG to go, go to Prince Viserys, for he is your King now, because Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon are dead. They refuse, because their King is not at Dragonstone, their King is in the tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I choose Fire, champion of Targaryen House. As Sandor showed with Beric, that may not stop him, hell. if he was chained up, I imagine him breaking out and killing everyone beofre the fire was lighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I choose Fire, champion of Targaryen House. Dick move Jon Con, LOL. I'd choose me some Wun Wun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 They stayed at the tower instead of going to Prince Viserys, the true heir to the throne, If baby Jon was Rhaegar's bastard, he had no right to claim the Kingsguard vow. Ned gave the 3 KG to go, go to Prince Viserys, for he is your King now, because Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon are dead. They refuse, because their King is not at Dragonstone, their King is in the tower. And by there vows they were not suppose to be there to begin with, but there they stand. For a vow, one easily to Rhaegar to protect Lyanna, and how honorable, she was pregnant and need of protection. a specially with Robert on the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 And by there vows they were not suppose to be there to begin with, but there they stand. For a vow, one easily to Rhaegar to protect Lyanna, and how honorable, she was pregnant and need of protection. a specially with Robert on the throne. huh????? Aerys was safe inside the Red Keep with 4 Kingsguard with him (Jaime, Jonothor, Barristan, Lewyn) when Rhaegar left the tower. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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