Mladen Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Thus he was breaking his vows, Rhaegar had no power of such, nor Hightower, the queen is not even promised such protection. He wasn't breaking his vow, because he did nothing in contrition with his vows. That Barristan's line was more of a "yeah, it is a strict rule, but we all assume some things"... If you have no proof that Hightower actually did something in contrition to what Aerys said, then it's quite obsolete to speak about breaking the vows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Which is exactly what I was saying, just because we have not heard the entire order doesn't mean they didn't happen. He was more than likely sent to retrieve Rhaegar, not Lyanna, and from there to do as Rhaegar commands. Or possibly not given any additional orders other than to tell Rhaegar to come lead this army. Given what we know of Hightower and how he operated it is not like him to defy any rules. It is not far fetched to think Aerys either told them to do as Rhaegar bid or Rhaegar had convinced them that they had no other orders and could dispense some himself, on a technicality that KG protection had been extended to him before. It is also in the KG duties to protect the Royal familyThe Kingsguard was founded by Aegon the Conqueror of House Targaryen as an elite bodyguard for those of royal blood.(From the wiki about the KG)when Rhaegar dies and King Aerys is slain, The KG would have an obligation to seek Viserys as he would be next in line. Ned goes over these scenarios where it doesn't make sense for them to be at the ToJ. Unless of course the true heir was there with themQuiet, Rhaegar ignited a war and Aerys had no trust in him. And according to Barristan, they only obeyed the king. If they do not follow their code once, what is to stop them from doing it again? If followed Rhaegar the oath could easily to be guard Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 He wasn't breaking his vow, because he did nothing in contrition with his vows. That Barristan's line was more of a "yeah, it is a strict rule, but we all assume some things"... If you have no proof that Hightower actually did something in contrition to what Aerys said, then it's quite obsolete to speak about breaking the vows. He protected someone without his king's leave. That rule leaves no room for other's to have such power. You seem to forget, the kingsguard are men, and as such do as they please in some regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Quiet, Rhaegar ignited a war and Aerys had no trust in him. And according to Barristan, they only obeyed the king. If they do not follow their code once, what is to stop them from doing it again? If followed Rhaegar the oath could easily to be guard Lyanna. You're ignoring the first part of Barristan's statement. What do you "strictly speaking' means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 You're ignoring the first part of Barristan's statement. What do you "strictly speaking' means? Seeing how he gave a rule that left no room for anyone but the king, I am curious what you think it means. Because it sounds like not all follow it, as not all do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 The Prince must have some power. Jaime begged Rhaegar to take him with him, despite Aerys wanting him to stay. Why would he ask if Rhaegar can't overrule Aerys? As a KG himself, he should know. And Rhaegar's answer has nothing to do with him being unable to do it due to being an order from Aerys but because he didn't want him to have more distress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 He protected someone without his king's leave. That rule leaves no room for other's to have such power. You seem to forget, the kingsguard are men, and as such do as they please in some regard. Do you actually think that all Kingsguard were always asking a King whether they can protect Queen and other members of royal family. I don't remember Ser Arys Oakheart was said specifically by Joffrey to go and protect Myrcella... It seems that you are fishing here for some inconsistency, and you are grasping for a straw. I can believe that Arthur and Whent were there solely because of Rhaegar's friendship, but Hightower, that one always seemed as the man of the principles... Just remember what he said to Jaime... He would never have broken his vow to Aerys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 The Prince must have some power. Jaime begged Rhaegar to take him with him, despite Aerys wanting him to stay. Why would he ask if Rhaegar can't overrule Aerys? As a KG himself, he should know. And Rhaegar's answer has nothing to do with him being unable to do it due to being an order from Aerys but because he didn't want him to have more distress. Because he is a just made KG, not as well in the know like old man Barry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Seeing how he gave a rule that left no room for anyone but the king, I am curious what you think it means. Because it sounds like not all follow it, as not all do. Strictly speaking means "yes, this is a rule" but we have extenuating circumstances which means that the strict rule can be bent to fit the situation. Rhaegar told Hightower to stay and Hightower did seeing that 1) Lyanna was Rhaegar's wife and carrying a child and 2) no one was going to let Rhaegar go back to KL (or somewhere half way in between) without a guard. So R takes his sworn shields--Whent and Dayne--and Hightower must stay behind. Then when the 3KG are reunited, a lot of crap goes down including the death of all the heirs and Jon being born, making him the new Targ King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Do you actually think that all Kingsguard were always asking a King whether they can protect Queen and other members of royal family. I don't remember Ser Arys Oakheart was said specifically by Joffrey to go and protect Myrcella... It seems that you are fishing here for some inconsistency, and you are grasping for a straw. I can believe that Arthur and Whent were there solely because of Rhaegar's friendship, but Hightower, that one always seemed as the man of the principles... Just remember what he said to Jaime... He would never have broken his vow to Aerys... Some don't, and as Barristan said in that chapter, they are but men, they don't all follow their creed prefectly. Ser Arys going with her at all shows he was given orders. Then why was he not with his king in a middle of a war? Why would protect someone without his king's leave? If he was so prefect, why did not return with Rhaegar? Why remain where he was not ordered? If Lyanna was of such need, why not follow his oaths and simple bring her to KL for the king do with and decide whether she gains his protection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Strictly speaking means "yes, this is a rule" but we have extenuating circumstances which means that the strict rule can be bent to fit the situation. Rhaegar told Hightower to stay and Hightower did seeing that 1) Lyanna was Rhaegar's wife and carrying a child and 2) no one was going to let Rhaegar go back to KL (or somewhere half way in between) with guard. So R takes his sworn shields--Whent and Dayne--and Hightower must stay behind. Then when the 3KG are reunited, a lot of crap goes down including the death of all the heirs and Jon being born, making him the new Targ King Like what? He went on to state the king can decide what protection he wants for his family, the kingsguard was what he wield it. And it was up to his king what protection she got, not his son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Here is my question to you: Was Cristen Cole in the right to follow Aegon? I believe not, for it was king's will he had to obey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Some don't, and as Barristan said in that chapter, they are but men, they don't all follow their creed prefectly. Ser Arys going with her at all shows he was given orders. Then why was he not with his king in a middle of a war? Why would protect someone without his king's leave? If he was so prefect, why did not return with Rhaegar? Why remain where he was not ordered? If Lyanna was of such need, why not follow his oaths and simple bring her to KL for the king do with and decide whether she gains his protection? As BearQueen said, you are speaking about really tiny technicality. Barristan would never use "strictly speaking" if that was the rule that was commonly enforced and that breaking it would demand some horrible punishment or would have been considered some great vow breaking. I am not saying HIghtower was perfect, but he was indeed someone who was "by the book". I find very difficult to believe that the man who showed rather hardcore attitude about judging King would go and break his vows. It was the simple thing. Lyanna was pregnant, timeline suggests even late pregnancy around 6-7 months. He certainly wouldn't jeopardize her life and life of future Prince or Princess just because King didn't give him specific orders what to do. Here is my question to you: Was Cristen Cole in the right to follow Aegon? I believe not, for it was king's will he had to obey. Absolutely not. When Viserys died, Cole perfectly knew whom he owes allegiance. He choose another man. That is breaking a vow, not Hightower and situation we discuss. It is not even comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. TAKING ALL BETS: What # R+L=J thread will we be on when TWoW will be released? I'm guessing R+L=J v. 265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Late to the party as always (hi guys!), but I always like commenting on not the textual, but the metatextual nature of things. R+L is obvious? (no, it's not, but let's assume this for the sake of the conversation). Alleras=Sarella? Why is there no problem in accepting this "theory"? The hound = the Gravedigger?Gregor = Robert Strong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Because he is a just made KG, not as well in the know like old man Barry. The scene I mention happens when Rhaegar is about to leave for the Trident. Jaime had already two years wearing the White Cloak, I'm sure he already learned the rules. And even if he didn't, Rhaegar did. He could have simply said "No, Jaime. My father's orders don't allow me to take you with me". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 As BearQueen said, you are speaking about really tiny technicality. Barristan would never use "strictly speaking" if that was the rule that was commonly enforced and that breaking it would demand some horrible punishment or would have been considered some great vow breaking. I am not saying HIghtower was perfect, but he was indeed someone who was "by the book". I find very difficult to believe that the man who showed rather hardcore attitude about judging King would go and break his vows. It was the simple thing. Lyanna was pregnant, timeline suggests even late pregnancy around 6-7 months. He certainly wouldn't jeopardize her life and life of future Prince or Princess just because King didn't give him specific orders what to do. Probably, be it the king they follow would be pleased. Does that mean a prince has such power still? No. Does that mean the KG being there is proof that they were following vows? No. They had a duty to the king, and the king first and only, they left their's in a time of war to protect someone the king did not give protection, they followed the will of a prince before their king. By the book, he should have returned to Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 The scene I mention happens when Rhaegar is about to leave for the Trident. Jaime had already two years wearing the White Cloak, I'm sure he already learned the rules. Seeing how he killed his king I say that is not that true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Seeing how he killed his king I say that is not that true. Hey... he knew it was wrong... he did it anyway, but he knew it was against the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Hey... he knew it was wrong... he did it anyway, but he knew it was against the rules. He didn't seem to think it was wrong at the time, as did he not think it was wrong not to protect Aegon. Not complaining about Aerys death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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