R+L=J v.95

[Alia of the knife]

Hightower's primary mission was with Aerys, until Aerys gave him the command to find Rhaegar and tell him to return to KL.

Also, we know that Hightower watched Lord Stark burned and Brandon strangled to death and on the night that Aerys raped Rhaella, Hightower warned Jaime to not raise his hand on the King. That the Kingsguard guard the King, the royal family (Rhaella, included), but not from him or to judge him. To me, Hightower was as clear cut, by-the-book, letter of the law, Kingsguard as one can be.

He obeyed Rhaegar's order (maybe even plea), to guard the tower. He knows that there are 4 Kingsguard still at the Red Keep with the King, what happened after that and before the news of the Trident and the sack of KL is not fair to be place on his head. For we know the news came much after the fact.

Yes, he had to have asked questions for Whent and Dayne, to fill in the missing dots..

-who is in the tower?

-what relation is that person to Rhaegar?

So the assumption must continue, the 2KG must have answered...

-Lyanna Stark is in the tower

-Lyanna Stark is also the second wife of Prince Rhaegar, for they have wed

-Lyanna Stark is with child, she is soon to give birth

Hightower, as by-the-book LC should be suspicious..

-who married them?

-where is the proof that the Prince married her?

At this point, Hightower must have been satisfied with the answers to his questions, because after the quick succession of news about..

-Rhaegar's death at the Trident

-Lannisters sack KL

-Jaime killed Aerys

-Prince Viserys and Queen Rhaella has fled to Dragonstone

..arrived at the tower, the 3 continue to stay and remain.

Because Why continue to stay if Lyanna is a mistress of Rhaegar? Hightower's automatic standing order would be, to travel to protect King Viserys, once knowing his where about. Hightower is not bound by Dayne or Whent as brothers of the guards (if the 2 were influenced by Rhaegar), but he is bound by Viserys, if he was indeed King.

But Viserys was not King in Hightower's eyes, for... Ser Willem Darry is a good man and true, but not of the Kingsguard.

And when Hightower speaks of Aerys, its almost out of frustration as he says more or less, had they been at the Trident, Aerys would still sit the throne.

What invisible force kept the KG from Aerys side given he was the king? :dunno:

I think there must have been some deal between Aerys and Rhaegar where Aerys finally consented to Rhaegars marriage to Lyanna in order to get Rhaegar to come back, following any orders he gave.

And because of this capitulation, Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna.

Hightower wouldn't have crossed that threshold without Aerys consent.

[IceFire125]

And protect those only by Aerys will.

Then he would never protect Lyanna without Aerys leave.

Still doesn't give him leave to abandon his king during a time of war.

And all this created dialogue still doesn't remove the fact he was suppose to be with Aerys, not Lyanna. Her being the bride of a prince meant nothing without Aerys word.

Because she is a pregnant woman who their dead prince asked them to protect. Hightower if he had such strong belief in his code, should have returned to his king the second he found Rhaegar, it was not in his place to obey Rhaegar.

And for all we know he declared a bastard Jon king.

I don't understand your frame of thoughts. You're statements are about what did not happened in the texts. Please address what happened in the texts.

Again, in your opinion, why did the 3 Kingsguard stay at the tower?

[Wmarshal]

I don't understand your frame of thoughts. You're statements are about what did not happened in the texts. Please address what happened in the texts.

Again, in your opinion, why did the 3 Kingsguard stay at the tower?

Your statements are of what did not happen in the text, why? Because none of this actually happened, GRRM has yet to confirm any of this in writing, you act as if he wrote your " scenario" in any of this books.

I gave it to you. For a dead prince they served when they weren't suppose to begin with.

[IceFire125]

And when Hightower speaks of Aerys, its almost out of frustration as he says more or less in frustration, had they been at the Trident, Aerys would still sit the throne.

What invisible force kept the KG from Aerys side given he was the king? :dunno:

I think there must have been some deal between Aerys and Rhaegar where Aerys finally consented to Rhaegars marriage to Lyanna in order to get Rhaegar to come back, following any orders he gave.

And because of this capitulation, Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna.

Hightower wouldn't have crossed that threshold without Aerys consent.

Of course, and if GRRM would go that route later in the books, I won't be surprise, it fills a lot of wholes into the reason the 3 Kingsguard (Hightower, atleast) stayed at the tower.

But this is not consistent with how we know Aerys pre-tourney-of-HH, right?

So did Aerys had a change of heart? and is accepting of Rhaegar taking a 2nd wife? when in fact, it would be of Aerys' character to deceive Rhaegar and to convince him to bring Lyanna inside the Red Keep for protection (as a hostage).

And when Rhaegar said to Jaime that he was planning to call a council and changes will be made, which we presume to remove his Father off the throne, that would not sit right with Aerys, in my opinion.

[Wmarshal]

And when Hightower speaks of Aerys, its almost out of frustration as he says more or less, had they been at the Trident, Aerys would still sit the throne.

What invisible force kept the KG from Aerys side given he was the king? :dunno:

I think there must have been some deal between Aerys and Rhaegar where Aerys finally consented to Rhaegars marriage to Lyanna in order to get Rhaegar to come back, following any orders he gave.

And because of this capitulation, Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna.

Hightower wouldn't have crossed that threshold without Aerys consent.

He was in a abandon castle, he had no way to speak to Aerys and convince him of anything.

[IceFire125]

Your statements are of what did not happen in the text, why? Because none of this actually happened, GRRM has yet to confirm any of this in writing, you act as if he wrote your " scenario" in any of this books.

I gave it to you. For a dead prince they served when they weren't suppose to begin with.

R+L= legitimate J is a THEORY!

You acted as if GRRM gave zero hints at all of Jon being born of royal blood. :huh:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79816-a-king-in-hiding-adding-it-all-up/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/86094-a-king-in-hiding-adding-it-all-up-part-2/

[Alia of the knife]

He was in a abandon castle, he had no way to speak to Aerys and convince him of anything.

Unless Aerys had foreknowledge of Rhaegars demands before he sent Hightower.

This smells like a truce in hostilities between Aerys and Rhaegar.

[Wmarshal]

R+L= legitimate J is a THEORY!

You acted as if GRRM gave zero hints at all of Jon being born of royal blood. :huh:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79816-a-king-in-hiding-adding-it-all-up/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/86094-a-king-in-hiding-adding-it-all-up-part-2/

And like all theories, it has no really proof in book outright stating any of of it is true.

[Wmarshal]

Unless Aerys had foreknowledge of Rhaegars demands before he sent Hightower.

This ssmells like a truce in hostilities between Aerys and Rhaegar.

What demands? Rhaegar went into hiding without giving a hint whether or not he actaully just to Lyanna out to rape her.

[Alia of the knife]

Martin has promised to flesh out the complicated relationship of Rhaegar and Aerys.

[Wmarshal]

Why would Aerys need to bribe him with anything? Rhaegar was as hated as he to Robert.

[Alia of the knife]

Of course, and if GRRM would go that route later in the books, I won't be surprise, it fills a lot of wholes into the reason the 3 Kingsguard (Hightower, atleast) stayed at the tower.

But this is not consistent with how we know Aerys pre-tourney-of-HH, right?

So did Aerys had a change of heart? and is accepting of Rhaegar taking a 2nd wife? when in fact, it would be of Aerys' character to deceive Rhaegar and to convince him to bring Lyanna inside the Red Keep for protection (as a hostage).

And when Rhaegar said to Jaime that he was planning to call a council and changes will be made, which we presume to remove his Father off the throne, that would not sit right with Aerys, in my opinion.

I think Aerys needed Rhaegar, and speculate that Rhaegar had approached his father for Lyanna, Aerys said no.

Later, he says yes, hence Hightowers mission to find him

[Wmarshal]

I think Aerys needed Rhaegar, and speculate that Rhaegar had approached his father for Lyanna, Aerys said no.

Later, he says yes, hence Hightowers mission to find him

Again why? Rhaegar was the one who was in deep shit when Aerys sent Hightower.

[IceFire125]

And like all theories, it has no really proof in book outright stating any of of it is true.

WOWWhat?? LOL!

when did I even claim the theory was canon? WTF? You are posting in the 95th version of the THEORY, R+L=J thread.

[Wmarshal]

WOWWhat?? LOL!

when did I even claim the theory was canon? WTF? You are posting in the 95th version of the THEORY, R+L=J thread.

So are you done arguing or not?

[Alia of the knife]

Again why? Rhaegar was the one who was in deep shit when Aerys sent Hightower.

Read between the lines, going to bed.

[IceFire125]

I think Aerys needed Rhaegar, and speculate that Rhaegar had approached his father for Lyanna, Aerys said no.

Later, he says yes, hence Hightowers mission to find him

Maybe, that had to take a lot of Aerys' character to change though. It's plausible that he felt the pressure of his rule was threatened, his royal army with low morale, and realizing that the rebels were winning.

Maybe a royal letter of accepting Rhaegar's marriage with Lyanna was sealed by Aerys, maybe that was the reason that Rhaegar finally agreed to come back to KL, and the reason for Hightower to proclaim the baby male as legitimate heir to the throne. That his, Whent and Dayne's Kingsguard vow was true to the end. The 3 Kingsguard did proclaim their loyalty to Aerys when Ned brought up about how Robert is now King.

So are you done arguing or not?

Arguing? Oh!

I thought we were discussing? My apologies, I knew you weren't even responding anything positively to what I was saying and maybe to others too, before I came, but I guess, close mindedness is synonymous with the results of arguing, talking about you of course.

[Wmarshal]

Arguing? Oh!

I thought we were discussing? My apologies, I knew you weren't even responding anything positively to what I was saying and maybe to others too, before I came, but I guess, close mindedness is synonymous with the results of arguing, talking about you of course.

So you continue you offend instead of giving a good debate, and I am the close minded one.

[Ser Leftwich]

This may sound revolutionary but, "serve" might encompass "protect" and/or "obey."

I wonder if we will ever get any official information about what a "sworn shield" is and official duties, etc.

Also, it happened like this:

Rhaegar: Guards, make sure Lyanna doesn't leave this room until I come and get her.

Dayne: Not to leave the room... even if you come and get her.

Whent: [hiccups]

Rhaegar: No, no. *Until* I come and get her.

Hightower: Until you come and get him, we're not to enter the room.

Rhaegar: No, no, no. You *stay* in the room, and make sure *she* doesn't leave.

Dayne: And you'll come and get her.

Whent: [hiccups]

......

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ok, so the passage that's up for debate, if I understand correctly, is this one:

Strictly speaking, it was purely the kings choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides.

It seems to be the case that Aerys gave his heir KG protection, which seems to be quite normal. The passage above states "serve and defend" not "defend". If Aerys extended the KG protection to Rhaegar, the KG had to serve Rhaegar as well, as long as those orders were nor in conflict with the kings own orders.

Aerys send Hightower out to find Rhaegar. The loophool that QB mentioned earlier, is that the command was to find Rhaegar and tmget him to return to KL. Not that the command had been "and return with him" or "escort him back to KL".

So when Hightower arrived at ToJ, Rhaegar could have ordered him to stay at ToJ,since there was no conflict with an order from Aerys. It would have been within Rhaegars right to do so "serve and defend", and Hightower would have had no choise but to obey.

As to why Rhaegar would do such a thing: Had Rhaegar allowed any KG to return to KL, that KG was bound by his vows to tell the truth when Aerys asked where they had been. Rhaegar could refuse to answer such questions, or lie about it to Aerys, the KG would not have that option.

So it's not about a small part of the passage, it's about the entire passage and it's consequences in a whole.

Didn't he mention he would write that AFTER ASOIAF? So, never =(

Last I heard, the plan is to release Fire and Blood 3 to 4 years after the last book. Parts of it are already written (200.000 words by GRRM, including the 80.000 words account of the Dance)