The Legality of Marriages

[RumHam]

I was expecting Joffrey to undo Robert's decision to give Dragonstone to Stannis and Storm's End to Renly, if the war had not happened and his succession was not contested. Joffrey would claim them both in his own name as the king and the head of the primary branch of House Baratheon.

For all we know Robert would have followed Targaryen tradition and named Joffrey Prince of Dragonstone when he came of age. This would explain why Stannis was so bitter about being given Dragonstone, he may have worried it was temporary.

[Mithras]

Daemon's marriage to Laena Velaryon was against the wish of Viserys and they ran to Free Cities after their secret marriage. Much later when they had children, Daemon presented his children to the king and Viserys gave his royal blessing. He didnot have to bless them and accept them into the Realm.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Daemon's marriage to Laena Velaryon was against the wish of Viserys and they ran to Free Cities after their secret marriage. Much later when they had children, Daemon presented his children to the king and Viserys gave his royal blessing. He didnot have to bless them and accept them into the Realm.

King V did not have to give his blessing--but that does not mean the marriage would have been invalid if he had not given his blessing. The bottom line is that Rhaegar would know this history and believe he was more likely to get his father's blessing if he returned with Lyanna and a baby rather than just with Lyanna. But either way, the marriage would be a marriage. The question would be whether Aerys would disinherit or otherwise punish Rhaegar in some way for the marriage. Rhaegar was willing to take the risk, but believed he had to return with the child to maximize his chances--and make sure the third head of the dragon was born (and I believe TPTWP).

[Lady Sansa's Direwolf]

I seem to remember Tyrion saying his marriage to Tysha last only until "the septon sobered up and notified his father". That would lead me to believe the father holds the ultimate command as to the legitimacy of the marriage.

With Ned Stark dead, and Robb considered a traitor, Sansa became a 'hostage' for the crown. That gave Tywin the ability to do as he saw fit. There is no way he would have married Sansa to Tyrion if he thought Tyrion's first marriage was legit and still in force. As a hostage Sansa had no right to refuse or question whatever the Lannister/Baratheon family decided for her.

There are only two ways for Sansa to obtain her freedome:

1 - Bring in the severed head of Tyrion to verify his death.

2 - Ask for annulment from the High Septon based upon the lack of consumation of the marriage.

As the entire kingdom (and most of the known world) knows about the marriage, there is no way LF to join Sansa to anyone without one of the two previous items happening. To ignore the marriage would have serious consequences for all involved. Much as it pains me, Sansa must wait for resolution until Westeros is united again under one ruler. If the Lannisters win, she's stuck and may find herself in prison for conspiracy to kill Joffrey. If the Targarians reclaim the throne, the HS can annul the marriage, leaving her free to join with whoever Dany/Aegon/Jon Snow decide is the best match.

Either way, she's stuck in limbo until the wars are finally decided, unless Tyrion's real head shows up in Cersie's lap...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I seem to remember Tyrion saying his marriage to Tysha last only until "the septon sobered up and notified his father". That would lead me to believe the father holds the ultimate command as to the legitimacy of the marriage.

Nope, not legally. Informally, he does. And no septon, especially no High Septon or Most Devout for 250 years would have said otherwise. But the High Sparrow got morals. He'll hold Tyrion to his first marriage on principle alone.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Nope, not legally. Informally, he does. And no septon, especially no High Septon or Most Devout for 250 years would have said otherwise. But the High Sparrow got morals. He'll hold Tyrion to his first marriage on principle alone.

I thought Tyrion's first marriage was formally annulled?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I seem to remember Tyrion saying his marriage to Tysha last only until "the septon sobered up and notified his father". That would lead me to believe the father holds the ultimate command as to the legitimacy of the marriage.

The thing is, Tyrion at that point didn't know shit about the affair, and was only repeating Tywin's narrative. He believed that Tysha had been a whore, for example. It might very well be that Tywin had had Tyrion's marriage "dissolved" with hemp rope and shovels.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I thought Tyrion's first marriage was formally annulled?

Nope. A formally annulled marriage would have to go through a trial by the High Septon or the Council of Faith. Tywin didn't do that. He swept it under the rug and had the local septons, who don't have that authority, tell some BS to Tyrion.

He had no reason to assume that there would ever be a High Septon like the High Sparrow, who could even think about holding House Lannister to something as ludicrous as this marriage.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Nope. A formally annulled marriage would have to go through a trial by the High Septon or the Council of Faith. Tywin didn't do that. He swept it under the rug and had the local septons, who don't have that authority, tell some BS to Tyrion.

He had no reason to assume that there would ever be a High Septon like the High Sparrow, who could even think about holding House Lannister to something as ludicrous as this marriage.

So then Sansa has two bases to annul the marriage--not consummated and Tyrion still married to first wife. Bottom line, however, seems to be without an annulment from High Septon (or death of Tyrion), Sansa is stuck.

[lareine]

I think this is the one:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents

Yes!

Thank you RumHam :)

This is the part I was thinking of:

The medieval world was governed by men, not by laws. You could even make a case that the lords preferred the laws to be vague and contradictory, since that gave them more power. In a tangle like the Hornwood case, ultimately the lord would decide... and if some of the more powerful claimants did not like the decision, it might come down to force of arms.

The bottom line, I suppose, is that inheritance was decided as much by politics as by laws. In Westeros and in medieval Europe both.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

I can't decide if I see Sansa's unconsummated marriage to Tyrion being put aside, or them eventually reuniting and being a power couple.

Asha (replaced by a literal aquatic mammalian seal in absentia) being married to 90 yr old Erik Anvil-Breaker is most definitely bullshit. Not legal.

[Colonel Green]

I thought Tyrion's first marriage was formally annulled?

I thought it was clear from the narrative that Tyrion had consummated his marriage, which would make it ineligible for annulment?

The basis for Tywin sweeping away Tyrion's marriage is that he's a powerful guy and can make stuff like that disappear, under normal circumstances. Seeing as the septon was legitimate, I don't think whatever he did would actually hold up if tested in 'court'. That said, I rather doubt that the future of Sansa and Tyrion's marriage will hinge on this in the narrative.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I thought it was clear from the narrative that Tyrion had consummated his marriage, which would make it ineligible for annulment?

The basis for Tywin sweeping away Tyrion's marriage is that he's a powerful guy and can make stuff like that disappear, under normal circumstances. Seeing as the septon was legitimate, I don't think whatever he did would actually hold up if tested in 'court'. That said, I rather doubt that the future of Sansa and Tyrion's marriage will hinge on this in the narrative.

They could also said that Tyrion was a "minor" who got married without the authorization of his father and Lord with some common girl. IICR, Joffrey was "representing" Sansa's father as she got no one and he was the King, but no family of Tyrion was involved. If Tyrion had been sixteen, then he's a full man able to make decisions by himself, but he wasn't.

[lareine]

So then Sansa has two bases to annul the marriage--not consummated and Tyrion still married to first wife. Bottom line, however, seems to be without an annulment from High Septon (or death of Tyrion), Sansa is stuck.

What Sansa really needs to get out of that marriage is to be in the good graces of someone more powerful than the Lannisters (as of the end of ADwD, that shouldn't be too hard to find) and who can bend the High Septon to their will, i.e. whoever is next on the Iron Throne.

[SeanF]

They could also said that Tyrion was a "minor" who got married without the authorization of his father and Lord with some common girl. IICR, Joffrey was "representing" Sansa's father as she got no one and he was the King, but no family of Tyrion was involved. If Tyrion had been sixteen, then he's a full man able to make decisions by himself, but he wasn't.

I tend to agree. After the age of majority, any marriage that Tyrion entered into would be lawful. As a minor, he'd surely need the consent of a parent or legal guardian, in order to marry.

[SeanF]

Nope. A formally annulled marriage would have to go through a trial by the High Septon or the Council of Faith. Tywin didn't do that. He swept it under the rug and had the local septons, who don't have that authority, tell some BS to Tyrion.

He had no reason to assume that there would ever be a High Septon like the High Sparrow, who could even think about holding House Lannister to something as ludicrous as this marriage.

Out of interest, do you know if it's possible to annul a marriage that's conducted according to a religion other than the Faith? Presumably, the hierarchy of the Faith have no juristiction over followers of other religions?

[RumHam]

Out of interest, do you know if it's possible to annul a marriage that's conducted according to a religion other than the Faith? Presumably, the hierarchy of the Faith have no juristiction over followers of other religions?

I would think that you're right, the High Septon probably can't annul a weirwood marriage. I doubt anyone could. You'd have to kill your spouse or get them to join the Nights Watch or Silent Sisters.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I thought it was clear from the narrative that Tyrion had consummated his marriage, which would make it ineligible for annulment?

The basis for Tywin sweeping away Tyrion's marriage is that he's a powerful guy and can make stuff like that disappear, under normal circumstances. Seeing as the septon was legitimate, I don't think whatever he did would actually hold up if tested in 'court'. That said, I rather doubt that the future of Sansa and Tyrion's marriage will hinge on this in the narrative.

Spot on.

The Faith obviously draws a lot of inspiration from the Catholic Church. Annulment in the Catholic Church means a trial whether there were hindrances to the marriage from the start, making it invalid in the first place.

Out of interest, do you know if it's possible to annul a marriage that's conducted according to a religion other than the Faith? Presumably, the hierarchy of the Faith have no juristiction over followers of other religions?

Probably not.

As I said, annulment is basically a trial, where you prove factors preventing a marriage existed during the marriage ceremony. Factors defined by the law of the Faith.

Anyway, other religions won't let the Faith handle their laws and ethics.

[Annara Snow]

As the entire kingdom (and most of the known world) knows about the marriage, there is no way LF to join Sansa to anyone without one of the two previous items happening. To ignore the marriage would have serious consequences for all involved. Much as it pains me, Sansa must wait for resolution until Westeros is united again under one ruler. If the Lannisters win, she's stuck and may find herself in prison for conspiracy to kill Joffrey. If the Targarians reclaim the throne, the HS can annul the marriage, leaving her free to join with whoever Dany/Aegon/Jon Snow decide is the best match.

Either way, she's stuck in limbo until the wars are finally decided, unless Tyrion's real head shows up in Cersie's lap...

Neither Dany, Aegon or Jon have any right to decide who Sansa is to marry. None of them is her legal guardian, or is going to be. Unless you think she's going to be a hostage again and in better position than with the Lannisters, and that any of those would be as much of an asshole as Tywin and Cersei.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Neither Dany, Aegon or Jon have any right to decide who Sansa is to marry. None of them is her legal guardian, or is going to be. Unless you think she's going to be a hostage again and in better position than with the Lannisters, and that any of those would be as much of an asshole as Tywin and Cersei.

I agree. Just because a Targ king (or queen) might provide for the HS to give Sansa an annulment would not mean that the king (or queen) also would decide the identity of Sansa's next husband. King's in Westeros seem only to have concerned themselves with the marriages of their own children. They have let the Lords decide how to handle marriages in their own families (other than, obviously, a marriage with a child of the king--like Aerys refusing to arrange a marriage between Cersei and Rhaegar--but Aerys would not expect to decide with whom Cersei eventually should marry).