The Legality of Marriages

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Now as to the other controversial marriages in Westeros. I think it is clear.

All of Westeros generally accepts marriages performed under other religions. So the Faith of the 7 whilst modelled upon Catholicism is not identical in this. It would simply be far too problematic for them to oppose marriages of the Old Gods. because of the level of intermarriage going on. When half the 7 Kingdoms worship tree's and half the 7 what happens when a Lord who is of the 7 wishes to make alliance with a house who are of the Old Gods? how can these two houses wed their children together if one refuses to acknowledge the others child as legitimate?

Therefore the 7 have no choice but to accept the weddings performed under Heart Tree's

Cat & Ned marry in a Sept, even though Riverrun has a Heart Tree. So I'd say it is likely Hoster or Cat insisted the marriage be under the 7, and Ned agreed to this, Ned see's himself as 100% married though, in spite of not having said the words in front of his own gods. Manderly's have married Starks, And Royces, neither of which are Old Gods worshipers. And these weddings could have been either old Gods or New, but I'd think it likely that usually when a woman marries into a House of a different faith she does so under her husbands Gods. I suspect Hoster & Cat made Ned break with tradition due to his position of needing Hoster to back his war. though this is only supposition as we have nothing in the books to tell us either way.

Ramsey Snow forces Donella Hornwood-Manderly to marry him by both faiths, we assume this is so that no one can declare the marriage void. He does this by sword point and he consummates the marriage publicly. This marriage tells us a lot about Westeros.

Donella as a Manderly is a 7 follower, but had previously married into the Old Gods worshipping Hornwood's. We can't assume she did so by a Heart Tree but it does seem likely. So we can suggest that marrying by another faiths gods does not mean you have to take those gods as your own. And Ned certainly did not convert though he wed Catelyn in a Sept. Nor did Roose Bolton take the 7 when he weds Walda Frey, which as it took place at the Twins we assume was done under the 7.

So Ramsey who is an Old Gods follower covers all bases by doing it both ways in spite of their being no known precedent for one faith refusing to acknowledge a marriage performed by the other. But as one spouse is an old gods follower & the other we assume a 7 follower, we can see why he does this, he does not want to leave any wiggle room for his marriage to be undone.

And it can not! Bran discusses the marriage at the Harvest Feast, and it is pointed out that Ramsey has legally married her and witnesses have seen the consummation. This seems to me to be the Key. When we couple this information with everything else which we know from the text.

• a consummation seals a marriage.And as this one was witnessed it can not be undone.
  
• an unconsummated marriage is easily set aside - Tywin Lannister.
  
• A marriage of the 7 can be annulled but only by a HS or a council of the Faith, at the request of one of the spouses - Peytr Baelish.
  

So a marriage can only be easily dissolved if no consummation has happened & if it is to be undone and was a marriage of the 7 (or includes a person from that faith, perhaps?) a council of the Faith needs to be called and the HS himself consulted by one of the spouses. Once a marriage is consummated it can not easily be undone & perhaps if it is an Old Gods one not at all?

Maester Luwin seems pretty certain when he speaks to Bran that Donella can not be gotten out of this marriage. Even though it was against her will. Roderik returns from trying to rescue her and tells Luwin & Bran that the marriage was lawful and that she had designated Ramsey as her heir before dying. All of this stands even though everyone involved knows that she was acting against her will.

So it seems obvious that he had it all tied up neatly. and the ingredients were covering both bases even though there is no known precedent for anyone denying a marriage of the other faith, and to do so would cause mayhem in the realm. And probably the actual crucial element consummation in front of witnesses.

We know a marriage of the 7 which has been consummated may still be set aside though as Renly plans this for Robert & Cersei when he puts Margaery forward. We have to assume that Renly intended Robert to petition the HS to set his marriage to Cersei aside. And for this we only have two ideas to go on.

• Sansa & Joffrey's betrothal being broken & real world comparisons.
  
• real life incidences of which it seems probable that we should look at Henry the VIII's petition to the Pope to set aside Katherine of Aragon.
  

Joffrey Petitions the (bent) HS to set aside his betrothal to sansa Stark on the grounds that she is the daughter of a traitor. The general feel though at the Small Council is that this is still very shaky ground to ask for the annulment of a betrothal which is seen as pretty much as legally binding as an actual marriage in the 7.

As it was indeed in real history. Anne Boleyn was rumoured to have promised herself under Contract to Henry percy and this caused no end of trouble when Mary talbot whom henry percy did marry petitioned for divorce based upon him having been legally betrothed to Anne prior to their own marriage, And later at her trial Anne Bolyen confessed to this having been true in an attempt to save her own life by getting out of having been legally Henry VIII's wife at the time of her accused infidelity.

This tells us the likelihood of the binding nature of Westerosi betrothals, and indeed the text reflects this in the way it is doubted the HS will agree to Joffrey's plea to break his betrothal. But we know the HS is easily bought and that the betrothal is broken. Though it also tells us that Sansa may in fact use the betrothal to Joffrey to break her marriage to tyrion as the new HS is in no ones pocket and far more fanatical.

Secondly the idea of setting Cersei aside. Henry VIII petitioned the Pope to set aside his marriage to Katherine of Aragon on the grounds that she had been married to his brother(dispensation had been granted as Canon Law forbade a man to wed his brothers widow.) and he doubted her insistence that this first marriage had remained unconsummated. Which had been the reason the Pope granted this dispensation.

So taking both these instances into account I think it most likely that Renly intended Robert to petition the HS on the grounds that Robert married Cersei whilst betrothed to Lyanna who he would make Ned claim was still alive when the wedding took place and so fudging the reality that Cersei and Robert married well after her death.

Though I very much doubt Ned would lie about this to the HS.

Another possibility would be that Renly knew something of her infidelity & intended to reveal it in order to get Robert out of the marriage, though the wording of set her aside indicates not, as if this were the case surely she would be executed a traitor?

There are mentions of marriages being set aside and new brides taken in the world book. Though they seem to have been long ago. Perhaps when the faiths were both less well established. Less formalised maybe? Certainly I could not find a single account of this happening after the Targaryen's arrived.

There is a chance Renly intended to use these accounts as precedent to enable the marriage or Robert and Margaery? or it seems likely in fact that Renly was building castles in the Sky and there was no chance of Robert ever setting Cersei aside legally.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

But we do have accounts of other controversial marriages, first up Rhaenyra and Daemon Targaryen.

Daemon was already married to his Bronze Bitch rhea Royce. But he asked his brother Viserys to allow him to take a second wife, Visery's daughter and heir Rhaenyra. Viserys refused him this plea.

But we have a second account where Rhaenyra begs her father to allow her to wed Daemon, and again Viserys is recorded as refusing this request.

and in the world book we learn that prior to asking Viserys to grant a polygamous marriage Daemon asked him to allow him to set it aside. Viserys refused. No mention is made of consulting the faith. but one assumes that as he asked his King's permission that he could not ask the HS to annul the marriage without the head of his Houses permission. Which is interesting? but again perhaps this is just because Viserys is King. We do not know from this if say Sansa would need Bran's blessing to petition the HS or Tyrion Cersei's.

Though I don't see Sansa's brothers ever refusing permission nor Tyrion asking Cersei's

Mushroom claims Daemon asked for Rhaenyra's hand if only Viserys would set aside his marriage to Rhea Royce. which implies he did not request Polygamy as implied in TP&TQ, and also that it is within the Kings remit to set the marriage aside and not the HS's which conflicts with what we know from the main text. All very confusing.

So in TP&TQ and in TRP it seems to be implied that Daemon & Rhaeynra both asked Viserys permission to marry without Daemon setting Rhea aside, but in TWOIAF it is said by Mushroom he asked to set the marriage aside first because he hated her and a second time to wed Rhaenyra.

Clearly GRRM is leaving this as clear as mud.

Eventually Rhaenyra & daemon were to wed in secret on Dragonstone without the Kings leave, but as they both declared the marriage consummated Viserys had to accept it. Both are of age.

Also Daemon firstly had married Laena Valeryon again without permission and he and she ran to Essos and only returned once there were children from the marriage. Note that this has implications for Rhaegar & Lyanna. A secret marriage for love (must have been for love Daemon stood to gain nothing from taking her as a wife she is no ones heir.) which is only presented to the King once a child is born.

And of course Viserys has to accept this marriage or he would have to declare his nieces bastards. Both spouses are of age.

And then Jaehaerys & Shaera both of whom are underage.

Sneak off marry and then come back and declare it consummated, and Aegon V feels he has no choice but to accept the marriage.

We have not one single account of anyone's marriage being declared unrecognised in the entire series of novels and novellas or the companion book. Not one.

It seems very clear that once you say the words and don the cloak and have sex it is done.

If a marriage is to be set aside it basically has to be unconsummated. And if you have had sex you need to have a very good reason for it to be set aside.

Even people whose marriages are barren and need an heir have been denied the possibility and though there are processes for annulment the circumstances to be granted one are very narrow.

The King seems to have some authority within his own family to set aside marriages but that is unclear, it could just be that as head of the house his permission is needed to even ask the HS.

Though we learn through LF that at the least non Royal marriages require one of the married couple to ask the HS for annulment. We do not know if LF is saying annulment is an option ONLY because Sansa's marriage is not consummated. Which might be the case.

We also know for certain that Tyrion is married to Tysha still if she is still alive because Tywin did not follow the correct procedure of getting his son to petition the HS and no council of the Faith was called.

GRRM gives us the account of Tywin's actions in this matter & he gives us the information on how a marriage can be undone, and we are told that this is not what was done.

I think I've covered everything.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The Weirwoods Eyes--

Thank you so much for going through all of that analysis. I support basically everything you have laid out and have been quite frustrated that Lord Varys and others have made arguments that are inconsistent with the basic text that you laid out quite clearly. The most important point you made in the first of this set -- that no matter how much anyone objects to a marriage due to it being polygamous or incestuous, a marriage in Westeros is a marriage anyway. Now there can be punishment for entering into such a marriage -- like the exile of Maegor, but there is no way to undo the marriage or called it not a marriage. This fact seems to be 100% confirmed by the text and analysis you laid out, and I would hope that would end this particular debate.

[Mithras]

Wyman threatened to send her grand-daughter to the Silent Sisters if she refuses the arranged Frey marriage in Merman's Court. Of course this was all a ploy but the idea is there. We also see that instead of divorce, there is the option of sending the women to the Faith or the Silent Sisters as we know from Fireball and even Queen Naerys.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Why thank you,

Yes I feel it has been made quite clear in all the texts. But I suspect people shall still argue it.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Wyman threatened to send her grand-daughter to the Silent Sisters if she refuses the arranged Frey marriage in Merman's Court. Of course this was all a ploy but the idea is there. We also see that instead of divorce, there is the option of sending the women to the Faith or the Silent Sisters as we know from Fireball and even Queen Naerys.

Yes this seems to be the only other way to get out of a marriage, to join the Faith or the watch.

Quentyn Ball made his wife join the Silent Sisters in order to gain a place on the KG, though he died before one came free. Obviously joining a religious order gets you out of a marriage, but of course it does leave you free to wed again. As you are a Septa/Silent Sister/Septon.

We can see from this though that her joining the silent sisters free'd Quentyn to join the KG, and so we assume it made the marriage null and void for them both. But I wonder can a Lord force a wife to join them, and then take a new wife? Might Renly have possibly intended this for Cersei? (hahahaha, now that is an interesting thought)

Baelor the Blessed convinced the HS to annul his marriage to Daena

"Baelor convinced the High Septon to dissolve his marriage to his sister Daena, since it had been contracted before he had become a King, and it had never been consummated above all. The High Septon complied"

Again it is the lack of consummation which seems to have been key!

Baelor also went on to become a Septon.

Naerys wanted to become a Septa but her father forbade it and wed her to Aegon IV.

Aemon the Dragonknight was named to the KG and this may have been to prevent his father forcing him to take a bride, due to his love of Naerys but we don't know this.

Lancel Lannister has failed to consummate his marriage with Amerai Frey-Darry. And has joined the Warriors Sons, but has the HS actually annulled their marriage? It sounds more like the Warriors Sons are Knights who dedicate themselves to the Faith, but that renouncing land & titles is not a compulsory condition of joining, as the Wiki says some go as far as to renounce their lands and titles such as Lancel Lannister.

At any rate should Lancel chose to ask for an annulment seeing as he has never had sex with his bride I don't think the HS would deny him this request. As the consummation does seem to be the deciding factor.

Likewise Ermersande Hayford when she becomes old enough would have a very good case for annulment from tyrek Lannister, as no consummation has happened, though clearly they are legally wed, and if he shows up and has sex with her at any point she would be stuck with him.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I do wonder, if a married man takes the Black is his former wife free to remarry? Say Lord Tarly has to take the Black, would Mellesa Florent be Lady of HornHill and have to remain a dowager of sorts? or could she take a new husband? Would Dickon receive the lands and his mother no longer be the Lady, say if he had his own wife? Or would Dickon have to wait for his mothers death?

I do think it must have happened at times, a Lord sent to the wall for treason say, but his Lady wife left behind. I wonder if we'll ever find out. Certainly is you hated your wife with a passion and could not persuade her to become a Silent Sister or Septa or say if you were a Northerner and she is an Old Gods follower, you could run away to the watch to escape her.. LOL.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The Weirwoods Eyes--

Thank you so much for going through all of that analysis. I support basically everything you have laid out and have been quite frustrated that Lord Varys and others have made arguments that are inconsistent with the basic text that you laid out quite clearly. The most important point you made in the first of this set -- that no matter how much anyone objects to a marriage due to it being polygamous or incestuous, a marriage in Westeros is a marriage anyway. Now there can be punishment for entering into such a marriage -- like the exile of Maegor, but there is no way to undo the marriage or called it not a marriage. This fact seems to be 100% confirmed by the text and analysis you laid out, and I would hope that would end this particular debate.

Agreed :)

@The Weirwoods Eyes

Well, I would guess that, if a marriage can be made undone by having the woman join the Silent Sisters, it wouldn't be surprising if the same applies for men joining the Night's Watch.. Though it appears that this does not apply for the Kingsguard (otherwise, Ser Quentyn Ball hadn't needed to force his wife to join the Silent Sisters long before a position ever opened up), and as the Kingsguard is modeled after the Night's Watch, I'd say that there's still a chance that this isn't the case..

I don't think we have any example of a man joining the Night's Watch while his wife is still alive, do we?

Of course, ending a marriage and remarrying is always a complicated situation.. Do the claims of the children by the first wife become void if the wife is set aside in favor of another woman, for example? If a Lord is send to the Wall, and his wife remarries, there's always the danger that her new husband will try to take over the lands of her former husband, especially if any children she had by her first husband are still young.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yes that is what I was thinking it is really complicated ground. And no no one we know of joins the NW whilst married. I had thought perhaps someone who Robert sent there following the Rebellion maybe but there is no mention of any of them having wives.

We know in real life history that the Princess Mary was declared Bastard when Henry & Anne married and that when Anne was executed and Henry wed Jeyne Seymour Elizabeth also was declared bastard. But we also know that ultimately this was unimportant as both later became Queen.

Interestingly Henry Fitzroy who would have most likely have been declared King at some point had he outlived his siblings and who was a Bastard, very nearly was granted special dispensation to be married to his sister Mary, when it seemed Katherine would never give Henry a Son and before he set his eye to Anne Boleyn. Which seems really squicky. Especially as at the time canon law considered having sex with your spouse's sibling incest. Let alone actual sibling incest, crikey!

And goes to show the lengths the church were willing to bend to in order to appease those with power.

Anyway I'd guess that if a wife is set aside and a Lord or King were to remarry that the children of the first marriage would be declared Bastards just as they were in real history.

Perhaps had Robert set Cersei aside and wed Margaery then her children by him would inherit but Robert would likely have betrothed the heir to the child of a different Lannister to compensate them. Maybe if Tyrion had married and fathered a child? Or if Cersei were to remarry and (assuming he got out of the marriage via the I was legally betrothed to Lyanna route) have another child they would be wed to Margaery's child. Though frankly I see Pigs flying before she would agree to that. All said and done I think renly was living a fantasy as the chances of Tywin accepting a dissolvement of Cersei's marriage without exploding were about slim to nothing.

[Lord Varys]

WE,

I never doubt that historians stated that Maegor had many wives. That's the case. But this has nothing to do with the question whether the Faith Militant/High Septon warring/preaching against Maegor considered his later marriages to be valid.

Presumably the marriage with Tyanna and the black brides was conducted by a septon Maegor forced into service, and we do know that the Faith can annul marriages as well as make them - which means they have the power/authority (or claim they have it) to speak for the Seven.

The idea that foreign marriage rites are universally accepted in Westeros is an unsupported claim. There is some tolerance towards the old gods (and towards the new gods in the North) but that's it. The problem isn't the rite, it is the number of spouses - if Faith and First Men no longer a polygamous marriage to be valid then it is irrelevant whether they could technically agree that a Valyrian marriage is also a marriage - they wouldn't do that if it involved incest, polygamy, or both.

Aegon and his sisters were accepted by the Faith, but the incest of Aenys' son and daughter was not, and neither was Maegor's polygamy. That was the basis for the Faith's uprising. When the Faith lost the war the Targaryen prevailed on there view of incest as a family tradition, but polygamy was not continued. And as Maegor was cast down it may be that illegal polygamy sort of died with him.

Daemon never asked for a second wife. He wanted an annulment so that he could marry Rhaenyra. He asked Viserys for that since it would have been he who commanded the High Septon to arrange this for Daemon - and allow Rhaenyra and Daemon then to marry as head of House Targaryen.

Historically, heart tree marriages are easily dissolved, it seems, as multiple First Men kings have set aside their wives to marry anew - most likely it was enough to throw your wife out of the house. After all, what would she do? Complain to the non-existent clergy? The Faith has institutional rules for this, in the North/good old days men most likely could do whatever the hell they wanted to do.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

But if the Maester is setting down the history and he says that Maegor had many wives then, I'm afraid that rather implies that the official line is they were indeed his wives. Now the Faith & the Maesters are of course not one and the same.

But it makes no sense at all for the entire of Westeros & the official histories to remember these women as his wives, if the Faith had declared the marriages non existent.

It simply makes no sense whatsoever. Also the Faith did in the end officially support him as King and they ordered the warriors Sons and the Poor Fellows to set down their arms against Maegor (and his many wives). The HS accepted him as King so no matter what you want to say we have it in text that the HS of the faith told the Faith militant to lay down their arms against Maegor. Who had many wives.

you're really stretching the text to suggest that what Maester Yandel has written down doesn't necessarily reflect what the Faith said on the matter. As a historian if the Faith declared his polygamous marriages not really marriages then he would say so. But he never once even so much as hints this. The text tells us the Faith would not accept a King who was in a Polygamous marriage, but that they also refused to accept Aegon as Heir after Aenys wed him to his older sister. Basically the Faith hated the incest & the Polygamy but they are not on record anywhere as declaring any marriages void.

Polygamy has not happened in a very long time, but we have never once been told it was outlawed. And the situation with Daemon & Rhaenyra is left deliberately vague. Three accounts all tell a different tale. In TP&TQ Daemon asks to take Rhaenyra to wife and theer is no mention whatsoever of his requesting an annulment from Rhea Royce to do so.

In TRP we hear that Rhaenyra requested her father to allow her & Daemon to marry and again no where does it mention an annulment with Rhea.

In TWOAIF we hear that he requested to annul his marriage twice, firstly as he hated her, and second time to wed Rhaenyra and again Viserys refused. Basically we don't know which account is the truth.

Also Jorah suggests Polyandry to Danaerys, and this very much implies it has never been made illegal.

We have no idea if the King has the power to command the HS to dissolve a marriage. It is not actually said that he can. We know people asked the King for annulments, but they have all been members of his house, and we don't know if the King has the power to force the HS to grant an annulment or if a person simply has to ask the head of the house for permission to seek one. I'm not making any assumptions because there isn't enough to go on.

i agree it seems the Old Gods faith allows for marriage to be easily undone, when we look at the Wildlings we get glimpses of how it once was. they don't often go to the trouble of getting married. We know a man "steals" a maid and that she stays so long as she wants to. Do they steal her and wed her at a tree? or is stealing enough to call it marriage? Most likely the old way was much more loose than the Faiths more controlling approach. Certainly the modern North are much more strict and I doubt they'd allow a woman to simply run away and declare herself no longer married. And certainly is a Lady knifed her Lord husband in his sleep she would not be called spearwife or accepted as having simply made a choice.

But the issue is that in order for the Andals and the First men to intermarry some agreement must be made where by they each respect one anothers ceremonies. Otherwise as I've said each would consider the offspring of the others as Bastards. Which would be very problematic.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Also we do know that the Faith also acknowledge marriages carried out outside of the Sept as real marriages,

As I've said we know they have no choice but to accept Old Gods marriages as to do otherwise would be catastrophic for the entire feudal system, with Lords and ladies suddenly being illegitimate and intermarriages leaving lords and ladies living in "sin" so to speak, and children declared bastards left right & centre.

Also we know they did not declare Aegon, Visenya & rhaenys not really married, and did not insist upon re marriage in a Sept, They also did not declare they wouldn't acknowledge Rhaenys as also his legitimate wife.

Alys Harroway was married to Maegor under the gods of Valyria, and she is called his Queen in the history book we have as TWOAIF, written by a Maester recording the history of the lands. If the Faith declared her a paramour, Yandel would be telling us this. That he does not tells us that she was a Queen, and a wife.

Alys Karstark & the Magnor of Thenn are married in an Old Gods R'hllor mash up ceremony and Jon never once questions in his head if the realm will accept this marriage. And it is a marriage people would have reason to wish to dispute if this were an option.

Viserys II married Larra Rogare in Lys and so presumably under whatever gods her family worshipped, be it the love goddess or some other old Valyrian Gods still worshipped there, maybe even r'hllor who we know is worshipped there also.

And no where is it stated the Faith did not acknowledge her as his true wife, for to do otherwise would mean declaring Aegon IV and Aemon and Naerys bastards.

Also I think we can safely say that The iron islands perform their weddings under the Drowned God and again no one is saying they are bastards and their marriages invalid.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Speaking of the Iron Islands,

i think I know why Asha was married the Erik Anvil breaker. Historically all children born to a married woman are legally her husbands, and that child can inherit, even if the child is in fact not her husbands. this was what the law really was in our own past.

Now of course we know Asha has had sex recently and was unable to brew moontea afterwards, so I think it likely that she is with child and that her child will be able to inherit due to her being "legally wed" to Erik. And as Theon can't father any kids I think this is likely the way GRRM intends to provide an heir to the Iron Islands.

Of course this has connotations for Cersei's children who are legally roberts in spite of being Jaime's but as we also know from real history a King can have children born in wedlock declared Bastards if it is required. And I'd think discovering they are not your children is good reason. So i doubt Ned Jon or Stannis were searching in vain for proof of her infidelity.

Basically it all comes down to what suits those in power. And as the Iron born do not worship the 7, i suspect they can jolly well decide Asha's child is legitimate if they so chose and as there is precedent in story for an obviously not the husbands kid to inherit land & titles (Viserys Plumm) I think that if it suits whoever is in charge at the time, that her child will indeed be legitimate and declared the heir.

because i doubt euron ends the series sat on the seastone chair. Besides which he has no wife, or legitimate children, Victarion has no children in spite of having had three wives so is likely infertile, Aeron is a priest & Theon has no dick.

[Mithras]

Alys - Magnar marriage was carried out by Mel.

Note that the wildlings do not even have marriage ceremonies (but Thenns might be different).

[Lord Varys]

1. TPatQ does not even mention the name 'Rhea Royce', neither does it talk about Daemon's first marriage. I do not understand where are you getting this from.

2. TWoIaF's account on Viserys' reign is written by Elio and Linda from Yandel's POV; it is a condensed version of the full text George has written on the history of the Targaryen kings from Gyldayn's POV. TRP & TPatQ are heavily abridged versions of George's history. If Yandel alludes to an event - Daemon asking his brother to set aside his marriage to Rhea Royce and allow him to marry Rhaenyra - then this is also part of Gyldayn's full account despite the fact that it does not show in TRP or TPatQ. Nothing has been left deliberately vague there. A lot of details have been cut because there was no space.

3. The successor of the High Septon who suddenly died (Ceryse's maternal uncle) sort of ended up acknowledging Maegor as king, but the Faith Militant actually continued the fight (and it seems to me that this High Septon was nothing but a puppet whose purpose was to dissuade the Targaryens from destroying Oldtown - he apparently was either not willing or not capable to reign the Faith Militant in), and it is stated that Maegor's many marriages was a/the main reason for that. Note also that Septon Moon and this Doggett chap led the Poor Fellows against Maegor in 48. The Faith Militant was part of the coalition which caused Maegor's downfall.

4. Historians make and tell history. But the fact that they tell us that Maegor practiced polygamy does not tell us anything about the Faith's opinion on that matter. I doubt that the High Septon accepted those marriages if he was preaching against them - just as the Pope did not accept Henry's marriage to Anne Boleyn. And why should they? But history still tell us that they were married (or rather, certain histories tell us - I imagine Catholic histories from the 16th centuries don't consider the marriage valid since they also consider Elizabeth I to be a bastard.

5. I'm not sure if First Men marriage is actually a religious rite. You assemble in front of a heart tree but the marriage is made is not by a clergy nor by the gods, and may just be done if front of a heart tree because that's how it is done. Valyrian marriage most likely was religious either as they were an advanced society with an atheistic elite and practiced religious freedom. Not sure why we should assume that the Valyrians would have religious ceremonies for marriage if they had that many religions - especially not if the different religions had different views on marriage.

6. I imagine the North/the Karstarks could object against Alys' marriages on the grounds that she married a wildling in a foreign religious rite. As of yet we don't know how the Karhold vassals will react to this. If Stannis prevails they may be forced to accept it but if not things may go out differently.

[Ser Lepus]

I do wonder, if a married man takes the Black is his former wife free to remarry? Say Lord Tarly has to take the Black, would Mellesa Florent be Lady of HornHill and have to remain a dowager of sorts? or could she take a new husband? Would Dickon receive the lands and his mother no longer be the Lady, say if he had his own wife? Or would Dickon have to wait for his mothers death?

I do think it must have happened at times, a Lord sent to the wall for treason say, but his Lady wife left behind. I wonder if we'll ever find out. Certainly is you hated your wife with a passion and could not persuade her to become a Silent Sister or Septa or say if you were a Northerner and she is an Old Gods follower, you could run away to the watch to escape her.. LOL.

I don't think so. As I said in another thread:

I haven't read anything that would point to women whose husbands go to the Wall getting their marriage vows annulled. I think they aren't allowed to marry, just the same way in Europe a woman whose husband leaves the family to go on a peregrination or a crusade or to climb a mountain and pray naked on its top didn't get their marriage annulled.

It would be reasonable to allow them to marry, but all those organizations that require a Vow of Celibacy weren't created to make people happy. So your husband was sent to the Wall? Bad luck. You are still a married woman. Sucks to be you.

Common born women probably seek lovers and common-law husbands, and may even manage to pass as widows and get a Septon to marry them, but that won't be so easy for noble born ones, who are under the scrutiny of society.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Thanks ser Lupus, That is an interesting idea.

I wonder if we'll ever find out for sure.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1. TPatQ does not even mention the name 'Rhea Royce', neither does it talk about Daemon's first marriage. I do not understand where are you getting this from.

I thought it did, i recall reading TP&TQ and thinking straight away how it mentioned Daemon asking for Rhaenyra's hand whilst he was already married. But I can't seem to find the passage so perhaps I'm getting confused between the three different texts. But in TRP Rhaenyra is said to have begged to be allowed to marry her Uncle, and that Viserys reminds her he has a wife. Which implies Rhaenyra did not see Rhea Royce as an obstacle. And the other account in TRP of their early dalliance prior to their sneaking off to Dragonstone & marrying much later also tells of Daemon asking Viserys to be given her hand, and I'm certain Daemon was aware he was already married so again we see that Daemon also did not see Rhea as an obstacle to marrying Rhaenyra as well. So which book it is in is beside the point. GRRM gives us three accounts of the two seeking to marry whilst he is married to rhea. TWOIAF tells us he asked to have the marriage set aside prior to asking to wed Rhaenyra, but this was because he loathed his first wife. The account of their love affair definitely is deliberately vague with several versions being floated and all involving the couple requesting leave to marry whilst he already has a wife. I don't see how that can be disputed.

2. TWoIaF's account on Viserys' reign is written by Elio and Linda from Yandel's POV; it is a condensed version of the full text George has written on the history of the Targaryen kings from Gyldayn's POV. TRP & TPatQ are heavily abridged versions of George's history. If Yandel alludes to an event - Daemon asking his brother to set aside his marriage to Rhea Royce and allow him to marry Rhaenyra - then this is also part of Gyldayn's full account despite the fact that it does not show in TRP or TPatQ. Nothing has been left deliberately vague there. A lot of details have been cut because there was no space.

I'm sorry but I disagree entirely. The accounts are condensed yes, but frankly the text we are given does leave it vague as to how the proposal went. What may or may not be in the full account is not relevant because as far as I am aware you have not seen that? In which case you know as much as the next person as to what is in it. It may well clear up the dispute with Rhaenyra and Daemon both asking to be wed after Rhea & Daemon's marriage is dissolved. But It also may well tell that they both thought Polygamy an option. We just don't yet know, and until such a time as it is revealed I prefer to go off the text we do have rather than your assumptions, and that text tells several differing accounts all of which leave it vague as to if they asked to have a polygamous marriage.

3. The successor of the High Septon who suddenly died (Ceryse's maternal uncle) sort of ended up acknowledging Maegor as king, but the Faith Militant actually continued the fight (and it seems to me that this High Septon was nothing but a puppet whose purpose was to dissuade the Targaryens from destroying Oldtown - he apparently was either not willing or not capable to reign the Faith Militant in), and it is stated that Maegor's many marriages was a/the main reason for that. Note also that Septon Moon and this Doggett chap led the Poor Fellows against Maegor in 48. The Faith Militant was part of the coalition which caused Maegor's downfall.

Yes the official line of the Faith of whom the HS is the leader was that they accepted Maegor as King, the fact the faith militant ignored the HS's instruction to set down their arms is not relevant. The HS head of the Faith said yes Maegor is the King. and by the sheer fact that Maegor did not set aside any of his many wives this tells us that the HS accepted them as his wives. And as I have repeatedly pointed out. Whilst the Faith rejected Maegor as the King because he had polygamous marriages they are NOT recorded as declaring those women not true wives. So the pertinent point is not that the faith militant continued to wage war to show their rejection of him as King, it is that they did so because he had more than one wife. The faith do not like Polygamy or Incest but both these things happened within the royal family. The crux is that the marriages are seen as actual real marriages. The Faith are not on record as declaring them false marriages which is the point.

4. Historians make and tell history. But the fact that they tell us that Maegor practiced polygamy does not tell us anything about the Faith's opinion on that matter. I doubt that the High Septon accepted those marriages if he was preaching against them - just as the Pope did not accept Henry's marriage to Anne Boleyn. And why should they? But history still tell us that they were married (or rather, certain histories tell us - I imagine Catholic histories from the 16th centuries don't consider the marriage valid since they also consider Elizabeth I to be a bastard.

But whilst the Faith has similarities to Catholicism they two are not one and the same. The crucial difference is this. Catholicism was/is widespread on an almost global scale, They power of the catholic church at that time was far vaster than that of Henry's armies. Henry could not manipulate the Pope to his will by holding power over him, he had to break with the church in order to marry Anne, and as such the church had the luxury to say well we don't recognise that marriage. Because they were in italy whilst Henry was in england and they could sit in stalemate brooding over the disagreement. However in Westeros the Faith are within the Kings lands, they hold power and sway and have an army,but the King has armies too and power and so it comes to war and the Faith in the end compromises and accepts him as King, which means they accept his marriages. The Faith also and I will say it again Are NOT on record as having declared the marriages false, only as not accepting Maegor as King because he had more than one wife. and that is the crucial point. They also did not want Aegon as King because he was married to his sister and the text seems to imply in large that they sided with maegor as his crime against the faith of polygamy was lesser than Aegon's of Incest. But it is clear that there was dissent within the faith as to which was the lesser of two evils. And again either way not once did the Faith declare Aegon or Maegor as not really married to their wives.

The fact the Pope declared Henry's marriage false is not relevant because the HS did not declare Maegor's false nor Aegon's

5. I'm not sure if First Men marriage is actually a religious rite. You assemble in front of a heart tree but the marriage is made is not by a clergy nor by the gods, and may just be done if front of a heart tree because that's how it is done. Valyrian marriage most likely was religious either as they were an advanced society with an atheistic elite and practiced religious freedom. Not sure why we should assume that the Valyrians would have religious ceremonies for marriage if they had that many religions - especially not if the different religions had different views on marriage.

Well the Heart Tree is a religious symbol to the First Men, and they go to it to pray, to marry and to say their vows. So I think it we are going to term the Old Gods a religion we have to accept that the Tree is the symbol of that religion and that marrying in front of the Gods, which is how they view it, that the gods can see them when in front of a tree is religiously binding. Valyrians had any gods and many faiths, but the upper echelons of the society were mostly atheistic. Obviously different families would have different faiths, some would have many gods who they worshipped in their households. It is said they had different gods for different purposes, I'm not sure we can really gather anything from this with regards to if Valyrian marriage was religious or not, But what we can ascertain is that those marriages were recognised as marriages in Westeros and by the Faith. As we know Visenya officiated maegor's second marriage in the Valyrian style and we have established that that marriage was not declared false. but only that the Faith rejected him as King initially because he had more than one wife. And Viserys II was married in Lys and we know not by what method, but we do know the Faith accepted Larra as his true wife and that he was crowned eventually by the HS, and his son in turn also. IF the Faith did not recognise his marriage to Larra as real and valid then they certainly would not be crowning a man whom they would then have to call Bastard on the IT.

6. I imagine the North/the Karstarks could object against Alys' marriages on the grounds that she married a wildling in a foreign religious rite. As of yet we don't know how the Karhold vassals will react to this. If Stannis prevails they may be forced to accept it but if not things may go out differently.

We don't know how her vassals will react, but we do know that Jon, nor any of the other westerosi present at her marriage ever so much as ponder that they might consider her not married. So as usual I'm going to say lets go with the text, lets go with what we do know. We do know that before during and after the wedding, not a single person questions it's validity or considers that her vassals or anyone else may reject the marriage as false. And we also know that Alys and the Magnor both consider themselves married inspite of the method of that marriage not being wholly compliant with their own religion. Whilst the ceremony had elements of the Old Gods service such as Jon saying he brings this woman forth to be married just as Theon does at WF for fAya, and the swapping of Cloaks, speaking of his protection ect. the officiant is a Red Priestess of R'hllor. And there is no Heart tree in sight. This is a highly unconventional wedding, But Alys and the Magnor see themselves as fully married and not one single person voices any concern over the marriage being accepted by the people of the land.

[Lord Varys]

TWE,

1. Daemon wanted to get rid of Rhea twice, yes. First when Viserys I became king, and then later when he had been caught a bed with Rhaenyra. Then Daemon tried to blackmail Viserys into dissolving his marriage so that he could marry Rhaenyra who he had deflowered and was thus soiled goods. His line of thinking was: 'If I dishonor her, my brother has to allow me to marry his heir, and I'm a lot closer to the Iron Throne.'

It is nowhere suggested that polygamy was an option - in fact, if it was then Daemon would not necessarily have needed Viserys' permission. He could just have married Rhaenyra and have two wives.

If polygamy came up there I'd have expected George or Elio/Linda to include that tidbit into either TRP or TWoIaF as this is quite an interesting concept. The fact that it does not show makes it rather unlikely that Gyldayn brought it up in the unabridged text.

2. Maegor being accepted as king by the new High Septon isn't the same as accepting his many marriages. Those are two different things. One is his right to rule which Maegar apparently won during a Trial by Seven, and the other is whether he is allowed to practice polygamy and incest. Note that he marries the black brides in 47 AC (which also included the incestuous marriage to his niece Rhaena), and that the Faith Militant campaigns against him begin again in 48, after those marriages. Perhaps the new High Septon - seeing Maegor's troubles with Queen Dowager Alyssa and Prince Jaehaerys - finally decided to condemn him again? We don't know that but we do know that Maegor was eventually cast down and never universally accepted as king. He is counted among them but we don't know if his successor (or the Faith) chose to recognize the things he did in life. The High Septon could posthumously declared his marriages null and void. The fact that Jaehaerys chose to uphold Maegor's laws against the Faith Militant is no surprise, either, as they were a threat to the whole dynasty not just Maegor.

Oh, and by the way: Maegor's marriage to Alys was not recognized by anyone but Visenya and the Harroways. Aenys, the Faith, and the Hightowers demanded that Maegor return to his lawful wife, but he refused. Aenys even wanted to make Ceryse fertile so that Maegor would not need Alys - which very much indicates that the view of this thing was more 'travesty' than 'lawful marriage'. If it was accepted nobody would have had reason to protest/oppose or condemn it...

This is essentially the option the Catholic Church offered Henry after his crime was publicly known. Return to your lawful wife, get rid of the whore, and everything will be alright again.

3. The Faith and the king very much fought a civil war during Maegor's reign. In that sense the thing is similar to the Henry situation. Before Jaehaerys I the Faith considered itself a separate entity. They were 'the Church', not ruled by the kings. And technically this continued afterwards as nominally the High Septon is more exalted as the kings as he is the Voice of the Seven on earth and thus essentially considered to be an avatar of the Seven (which is why Cersei is accused to have murdered a god).

4. I imagine Valyria would have had a civil marriage kind of thing due to the fact that there were this many religions permitted there. Surely not all of them shared the same marriage concept - hello there, Mormons or Muslims in the real world - and the state should have stepped in and ensure that religion and real stuff remain separate and try not to enforce their marriage concept on the people following other faiths or non at all. And the Valyrians hadn't a complementary religions with many gods in the same pantheon they were a pluralistic society which allowed religious freedom - which means there were all religions tolerated even those who were intolerant themselves and not in favor of other faiths (R'hllorism already existed and was practiced in Valyria). And we do know that three Free Cities - Lorath, Qohor, and Norvos - were founded by religious dissenters who weren't happy with the situation in Valyria and wanted a colony of their own to live as they choose.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Obviously you have your own bias, which is sad to see as usually you are one of the more level headed posters.

You are deliberately misinterpreting the texts. Daemon asks Viserys to annul his marriage because he does not like his wife and hates the Vale. later after supposedly deflowering Rhaenyra both she and he separately are reported to have asked permission to marry, Annulment of the Royce marriage is not brought up by either of them at this point. Viserys does however remind Rhaenyra that Daemon has a wife.

This leaves it very open as to whether or not either Daemon or Rhaenyra was asking for a polygamous marriage. And you are allowing your bias against the idea Polygamy was never outlawed to effect how you are seeing the text, your argument hinges upon your assumption that if they had asked for polygamy we would be told so.

Why? why in a story where one of the main mysteries at the heart of the main series of books involves the hots debated prospect of a polygamous marriage would the author simply state in the companion text that much more recently than the suspected and highly debated union polygamy was raised as an option by other Targaryens.

If the author wants to leave a vague hint that it was a possibility, by having a married man ask for a second womans hand in marriage, whilst not mentioning annulment but have that same man having previously asked to set his first wife aside then he is not going to come out and explicitly say that is what Daemon & Rhaenyra asked for.

I'm not saying Oh I am certain that they did, I am saying there is room for that to be possible in the text that we do have, and that given the fact polygamy may play a central role in the main mystery in the series I highly doubt the author was not aware that he had left this particular possibility open in the companion text.

Your insistence that Maegors marriages were unrecognised also shows your bias, because what you are saying is not supported in the text. I won't keep repeating myself again after this. Maegor's wives are consistently referred to as wives in every single reference and account we have. No one has ever even hinted that anyone ever saw them as not real wives of the Faith or otherwise. So you are basing your insistence upon absolutely nothing other than your own opinion.

Yes Valeryia may well have had civil marriage options, but obviously these too were recognised as real marriages in Westeros. as when Aegon lands no one tells him he has to re marry his wives in a "real" service.

Basically there is not one account of any form of marriage being refuted in series. Not one. All marriages are seen as binding upon consummation and within the Faith the HS can annul if he feels it is appropriate, Though the circumstances where that is possible once you have sex seem very narrow.