R+L=J v.96

[lojzelote]

While the Valaryons weren't the "royal" family, were they not still dragon lords of Valarya?

I think it was stated that the Targaryens themselves were only a minor noble family in their native land.

Ran had said: "The best evidence, I think, for some magical genetic component to dragonriding is simply the fact that the dragonlords in particular practiced incest -- other Valyrian nobility did as well, I guess, but it seems the dragonlords really led the way. Which suggests that they may well have believed that there was a genetic component, one they wanted to keep strictly to the family. (Alternatively, I guess you can argue it's all just inheritance matter -- marrying family members out might lead to their offspring, members of other families entirely, might be able to claim your dragons for themselves)."

The Targaryens were a minor noble dragonlord family. The Velaryons were a noble non-dragonlord family. IIRC we don't really know why they came with the Targs to Dragonstone or at which point they began to marry with them.

ETA: Oh, solved already? Sorry, I'm just too slow, lol.

[RumHam]

I didn't know Ran had said other Valyrian nobility did as well. So maybe the Velayrons did sometimes.

[Prince of the North]

I believe yet another thing that implies an on-going relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar is the crown of blue roses that he bestowed upon her at the Harrenhall tourney. She was still "clutching" it when Ned found her at the ToJ, right? I would have to wonder why if she were actually with someone else like Arthur Dayne or Oswell Whent :dunno:

[sj4iy]

I believe yet another thing that implies an on-going relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar is the crown of blue roses that he bestowed upon her at the Harrenhall tourney. She was still "clutching" it when Ned found her at the ToJ, right? I would have to wonder why if she were actually with someone else like Arthur Dayne or Oswell Whent :dunno:

I don't think there's anything to suggest she was still clutching the crown itself. The places apparently smell of roses...they wouldn't have a smell by then, so it seems that Rhaegar made sure she had roses at the ToJ. She could have simply been clutching rose petals.

[Prince of the North]

I don't think there's anything to suggest she was still clutching the crown itself. The places apparently smell of roses...they wouldn't have a smell by then, so it seems that Rhaegar made sure she had roses at the ToJ. She could have simply been clutching rose petals.

Oh, I guess I hadn't thought of that. I don't have the books electronically for the actual quote itself but here's what the wiki has to say on it (emphasis mine):

During its course, Lord Eddard "Ned" Stark honored his late brother Brandon's betrothal to Catelyn Tully as part of an alliance to bring House Tully into the rebel fold. He was one of the principal commanders in the war, but had a falling out with Robert after he accepted the treacherous aid of House Lannister and condoned the brutal murders of Rhaegar's wife, son and daughter out of his hatred for the Targaryen prince. After the Sack of King's Landing, Eddard and six companions went to retrieve Lyanna at the fortress Rhaegar had named the Tower of Joy. They fought three Kingsguard knights stationed there, who killed all but Eddard and Howland Reed. Eddard found Lyanna dying in a bed of blood and clutching a withered wreath of blue roses. She forced him to make a promise to her, the contents of which are unknown, but which haunted Eddard for the rest of his life. She was sixteen years old at the time of her death and was buried in the Stark family crypt in Winterfell beside her father, Rickard, and brother, Brandon.

It's been a long time since I actually read AGoT but I always thought it was the original crown (which would, of course, be a small wreath) of blue roses Lyanna was holding when Ned found her :dunno:

[BearQueen87]

Oh, I guess I hadn't thought of that. I don't have the books electronically for the actual quote itself but here's what the wiki has to say on it (emphasis mine):

It's been a long time since I actually read AGoT but I always thought it was the original crown (which would, of course, be a small wreath) of blue roses Lyanna was holding when Ned found her :dunno:

It's petals, not the actual crown. Though I think we can infer that while not the actual crown, they were probably blue rose petals. They had turned black and that's what spills from her hands.

[Debra Morgan]

Who else would be the father of Lyanna's baby if not the man she was having sex with on a regular basis? And I'm not sure what you mean by "the one evidence is guards"

It is said nowhere that they had sex.

Ned recalled that Lyanna was rebellious so it lead her to early grave. We don't know what was happening in ToJ during the Rebellion.

Who else would be the father of Lyanna's baby if not the man she was having sex with on a regular basis? And I'm not sure what you mean by "the one evidence is guards"

Dayne, Aerys, Benjen, Ned, etc.

Guards must protect the member of king's family.

[BearQueen87]

It is said nowhere that they had sex.

Ned recalled that Lyanna was rebellious so it lead her to early grave. We don't know what was happening in ToJ during the Rebellion.

Dayne, Aerys, Benjen, Ned, etc.

Guards must protect the member of king's family.

Yes it is said. Robert believed her to raped hundreds of times. Rhaegar and Lyanna were having sex in everyone's eyes, but it wasn't consensual.

It makes absolutely no sense for any of those men to be the father of Lyanna's baby.

Why would Rhaegar stay away from KL just to hang out with his friend who was having an affair? He wouldn't.

Aerys?? What evidence is there for Aerys??

Ned and Benjen: nope. Timeline issues and Ned isn't about to commit incest. God fearing, honorable Ned isn't going down that path. And Ben's rather young.

[Prince of the North]

It's petals, not the actual crown. Though I think we can infer that while not the actual crown, they were probably blue rose petals. They had turned black and that's what spills from her hands.

Maybe my memory's playing tricks on me but I thought the wiki I quoted is actually correct in this instance that Lyanna was clutching a withered wreath of blue roses :dunno: But, regardless whether it was a wreath or simply petals, I do believe that symbolism still implies a connection between Lyanna and Rhaegar moreso than between Lyanna and another man/suitor.

ETA: Then again, there's also all the symbolism surrounding the Bael the Bard story and blue roses that, in turn, loops back to Rhaegar and Lyanna more plausibly than Lyanna and someone else.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Maybe my memory's playing tricks on me but I thought the wiki I quoted is actually correct in this instance that Lyanna was clutching a withered wreath of blue roses :dunno: But, regardless whether it was a wreath or simply petals, I do believe that symbolism still implies a connection between Lyanna and Rhaegar moreso than between Lyanna and another man/suitor.

Agreed--the blue roses symbolize the relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar--not Lyanna and some random guy. The theories that Lyanna could have given birth to a child of someone other than Rhaegar requires behavior from Rhaegar that is so implausible as to be discounted easily. Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna and stayed away for about a year or so. The idea that the crown prince would do that to hide an affair between Lyanna and someone else is absurd (I am starting to run out of adjectives, I already used preposterous and ludicrous in above posts).

[BearQueen87]

Maybe my memory's playing tricks on me but I thought the wiki I quoted is actually correct in this instance that Lyanna was clutching a withered wreath of blue roses :dunno: But, regardless whether it was a wreath or simply petals, I do believe that symbolism still implies a connection between Lyanna and Rhaegar moreso than between Lyanna and another man/suitor.

ETA: Then again, there's also all the symbolism surrounding the Bael the Bard story and blue roses as well.

The wiki is lying to you, lol

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm dead and black

Eddard I, AGOT

But yes, I agree that this is an obvious connection to Rheagar, Harrnehal, and I think R and L's love for one another.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

It is said nowhere that they had sex.

Ned recalled that Lyanna was rebellious so it lead her to early grave. We don't know what was happening in ToJ during the Rebellion.

Dayne, Aerys, Benjen, Ned, etc.

Guards must protect the member of king's family.

If it were Arthur Dayne's child, Hightower would have killed him for an oathbreaker. If it were Dayne's baby, why would Rhaegar and Whent just be hanging around while Dayne was forsaking his vows?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Oh, I guess I hadn't thought of that. I don't have the books electronically for the actual quote itself but here's what the wiki has to say on it (emphasis mine):

It's been a long time since I actually read AGoT but I always thought it was the original crown (which would, of course, be a small wreath) of blue roses Lyanna was holding when Ned found her :dunno:

We had it a few posts upthread, or did I cut the detail away? Anyway:

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was . . . fond of flowers."

AGoT 04 Eddard I (early into the chapter, emphasis mine)

It's petals, not the actual crown. Though I think we can infer that while not the actual crown, they were probably blue rose petals. They had turned black and that's what spills from her hands.

Beware of poetry, it is the actual crown that was meant here. What was she clutching with one hand? Ned's hand. What was she clutching with her other hand? Does it make sense that she was holding tightly to any dead rose petals?

No, the crown of Harrenhal, the symbol of their love, the grip on her baby child she could no longer keep tight and safe.

eta: both hands may be symbolic for the new bond here. Her care of the baby goes over into Ned's responsibility.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

The wiki is lying to you, lol

Eddard I, AGOT

But yes, I agree that this is an obvious connection to Rheagar, Harrnehal, and I think R and L's love for one another.

Definitely. Why would we hear of the KotLT and Rhaegar crowning Lyanna, and all of Harrenhall if he felt indifference towards her

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Ben's rather young.

And in Winterfell. All the warmaking time.

[Prince of the North]

Agreed--the blue roses symbolize the relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar--not Lyanna and some random guy. The theories that Lyanna could have given birth to a child of someone other than Rhaegar requires behavior from Rhaegar that is so implausible as to be discounted easily. Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna and stayed away for about a year or so. The idea that the crown prince would do that to hide an affair between Lyanna and someone else is absurd (I am starting to run out of adjectives, I already used preposterous and ludicrous in above posts).

Very much agreed. I don't want to get too caught up in the detail of whether it was the actual crown of blue roses or just some other blue roses because the symbolic connection is there in any case (although, I'm gonna have to go read it for myself again now anyway ;) ).

[Ygrain]

If it were Arthur Dayne's child, Hightower would have killed him for an oathbreaker. If it were Dayne's baby, why would Rhaegar and Whent just be hanging around while Dayne was forsaking his vows?

And Ned would hardly think that Dayne was the finest knight ever.

[BearQueen87]

And in Winterfell. All the warmaking time.

That too.

So Debra Morgan what evidence do you think is in text that proves any of those other candidates? I am asking honestly, I'd like to know.

[Alia of the knife]

I didn't know Ran had said other Valyrian nobility did as well. So maybe the Velayrons did sometimes.

Yeah only because it seems that there isn't the diversity in appearance with the Valaryons, suggesting they may have gone to Lys more for their mates?

[UnmaskedLurker]

That too.

So Debra Morgan what evidence do you think is in text that proves any of those other candidates? I am asking honestly, I'd like to know.

I would ask the question in a way that should make it even easier for her to answer, but for which I still don't think she can answer. I would ask: what evidence in the text makes it even slightly plausible that any of those other candidates could be the father? I really want to know. It is not just lack of proof, but lack of even minimal plausibility that makes the suggestion of Dayne, Whent, Ned or Ben unavailable as potential fathers. If there is contrary textual evidence, I really want to hear it.