OllyS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Does anyone think it's possible they're just doing what the free folk did? Getting south to get away from something...I don't btw just thought it was worth a mention... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 They aren't evil, as in "we want to destroy humanity because muaahhahaha...". Even if they simply want to expand their territories, they aren't that different from the First Men or the Andals, who butchered the people and cultures they found during their migration to Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Does anyone think it's possible they're just doing what the free folk did? Getting south to get away from something...I don't btw just thought it was worth a mention... Yes, it is possible and that's even more frightening, because as Xander Harris said, "when scary things get scared: not good". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 No, I think that's the subversion he's going for. He's going to subvert expectations and play them straight as iceorcs with no Sauron. (Great Other does not exist. R'hllor does not exist.) He has stated that he doesn't think they have a culture, so I can't imagine them having true motivations or any room for the complexity that "grey" requires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Stannis Inquisition Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 He said that he doesn't know if they have a culture. It may be too alien for humans to easily understand which may translate to a lack of culture as far as the citizens of Westeros are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 He said that he doesn't know if they have a culture. It may be too alien for humans to easily understand. Well, yeah, so it won't be for us to say if they're evil or not. Like Cthulhu, if I'm remembering my mythos right... wait, hasn't he named HPL as an influence??? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janicia Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 The Others might end up seeming reasonable in their motivations, but it is hard to imagine them existing peacefully alongside humanity. Baby taking and animating corpses to attack their relatives are not tolerable behaviors. The peaceful ending is that the Others agree to stay north of the wall if humans will stay south of the wall, and the wildlings become homeless or are forced to assimilate into Westerosi culture. But that assumes that the Others would be satisfied with such a deal, which we don't know, and it assumes that the humans will have somebody willing and able to negotiate and enforce that deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondo has three heads Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 It depends what you consider to be "pure evil." For instance, some people have suggested the Others are basically the planet's/magic's biological response to the increasingly terrible things humans are doing. That would not make the Others evil, necessarily, but you wouldn't really empathize with a pure force of nature. I think the Others will have an interesting back story and identifiable, perhaps even noble, motivations. But I think those motivations have led to the decision to wipe out all humans. So yes, fairly evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm the Party Pooper Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 The mere fact that you demand UNIVERSAL agreement means that you are trying to stack the deck in favor of moral nihilism; and shut down all moral discussion on the basis of your own repellent philosophy. Sorry but no. Some things are wrong, and the fact that someone somewhere believes that rape and murder are okay does not make it so; any more than the disagreement of the 6 blind men proves the non-existence of the elephant.What? no, I'm only fed up of seeing discussions on "this is evil" or "this is not evil" when the clear root of disagreement is that the notion of evil is not clear to anyone. And to ask "the white walkers are not evil right?" frames an assumption on evilness that is left unspoken, because under certain morale grounds they are evil and under others they are not. I am not a nihilist at all, I just said that to me this discussion is flawed because people do not preventively tackle the background onto which the question can be answered.It seems to me that many people notion of evil is clearly only a "monster who destroys and kills for the pleasure and strive to achieve annihilation" like it's portrayed in cartoons for children. It's the result of moral relativism brought to his extreme, you end up not knowing who you can label evil because you have so high expectations onto the requirements to being evil. So then focus usually shifts on single acts being evil or not, cause it's easier to answer. The philosophical topic is much wider and more difficult to address. There are notion of evilness that do not require such characteristics at all to label a guy evil. But the assumptions left unspoken here prevent real deep debate, and it all remains on the ground of moral relativity.... so people eagerly end up to the conclusion that nobody is evil, which is only one of possibilities - depending of the philosophy you come from - and should not be taken for granted. The fact that you mention those specific 'evil' acts makes me think that you know a little - if not much - of the extent of the debate I'm talking about. That's good, but you misunderstood completely the aim I had with my post. It's fine anyway, I could have been more clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I consider Tywin Lannister more "evil" than the Others. As far as we know, maybe the Others do what they do because they need to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I think there's more to them than what we know but based on what we do know... they seem pretty evil. I highly suspect from the human perspective, that there are close to 'evil.' They may be working on just saving themselves, etc., but they could also be working on wiping out most of humanity finally, seeing a chance to do so. Or, maybe, most of Westeros. I wouldn't be surprised to find that they would be interested in wiping out humanity if there was a way for them to breed and procreate without the supposed necessity of human children. Perhaps they think they have found a way to do so, finally? If that is the case, they may finally be ready to move up to good ole All Evil, LOL I'm thinking that they themselves may feel put upon, some balance upset between them, humans, and CotF, but......I also suspect they may up their game, no longer looking for balance but for total control? Just some thoughts. I do wonder if they have a deeper endgame than they've ever had before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I actually, didn't mean to differentiate that in my last sentence, I just mean I dont think GRRM will have them be evil without reason. Whereas they may be bad, from a human perspective, but perhaps there is a reason they are doing what theyre doing, other than just because. But again, to juxtapose your 'laughing' point. What about how humans hunt for fun? Not for resources, but for pure shits and giggles. I admit there are clearly a lot of unknowns on the whole White Walker/Human relations. Whether or not the whole Nights King is a myth or not (TV Show spoiler not permitting), i can see the Other's seeing humans purely as fodder, the same humans look at deer, or whatever animal you want to choose.But I however do believe in the Night's King myth, so I really don't know. I guess I'm just trying to get across the point, that the Others are doing what they are doing for a good reason, just as how humans go to war with other humans for their own reasoning, the Others may be doing the same. I have to admit, this also is a bit reminiscent of GRRM's novel Fevre Dream, how beings can look at each other as 'fodder' and how, something seemingly human, could have the same views on humanity as we do about, say, cows. Hmmmmmmmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 right now, it appears as though, they have one goal: to break through and get on the other side of the wall. You really think the iron throne holds any significance to beings with their powers and their magnitude? on-the-spot crackpot theory: Old Nan said the night's king was a stark. There must always be a stark in winterfell. furthermore, they should be buried there in it's crypts. winterfell, is abnormally warm for some reason, couldnt tell you why (though, i could crackpot all day that it's the night's queen absorbing the surrounding cold to keep herself alive, and thats why the warmer temperature). crackpot: The Night's King, was separated from his queen, she's imprisoned in winterfell's crypts, and he's trying to get to winterfell's crypts to be with her so they could rest in peace. Now thats NEVER going to happen. But it's how i'd like to see it. LOL, so there COULD be a HEA, even for a couple? :bowdown: I need get out of this thread for a bit, before I fill a whole page with replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesW Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Given their complete lack of discernable communication before they butch and zombify any human that they come across, it's hard to say what their intentions are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I consider Tywin Lannister more "evil" than the Others. As far as we know, maybe the Others do what they do because they need to survive. :lol: I'm with you 100%. I'd rather be an Other than a Lion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I know this has been discussed all over, but just curious to get some peoples' thoughts....does anyone out there think the Others are just the BIG BAD waiting at the end of the story for us? I for one think they're just another species, however dangerous and deadly they may be, that is just trying to survive. It's Darwinism, they are for all intensive purposes, the stronger species, higher up on the food chain. I do think that they're reason for invading is to survive and reproduce, much like all animals, however they are much smarter. I don't think they're the "Evil Genius" with a master plan to end the world. I can easily see a history revealed about them as perhaps being wronged by humans in the past. So, I end this post with a few questions and one final thought..... 1. Do you think they are just the prototypical evil 'bad guy'? 2. What do you think they're reason or drive is? 3. Could it be in fact, that perhaps the religion of R'Hollor is the main evil and the Others are fighting against that? As we all know, George likes to make most everything not a matter of black and white, but gray, which I believe is the case for the Others. I don't have any thoughts on if R'Hollor is evil or not, just thought I'd throw that out there, cause I'm sure it may garner some interesting responses and was just kinda writing whatever drivel popped up in my brain. And screw it I'll throw in one more question for the fun of it.... 4. Who do you think Bloodraven is ultimately serving? And in turn if Bran will follow in his footsteps or rebel? 1. Not remotely. 2. Not sure but it could be fleeing a great evil from their land. They could be slaves to whatever is in the Heart of Winter. Could be they're concerned about global warming, or that it's just the end of their hibernation cycle and time to back to the old hunting grounds which have been taken over by some weird looking flesh-things. 3. Yes, that's a possibility. 4. Not sure. The realm maybe? He does seem to be against winter so that makes me lean toward him being on the side of humanity. On the Other hand, it could be his job to find powerful greenseers and trick them into their doom thus ensuring that human beings will be wiped out. But if that's the case then Euron Greyjoy becomes the hero and I really don't think that's going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 right now, it appears as though, they have one goal: to break through and get on the other side of the wall. You really think the iron throne holds any significance to beings with their powers and their magnitude? on-the-spot crackpot theory: Old Nan said the night's king was a stark. There must always be a stark in winterfell. furthermore, they should be buried there in it's crypts. winterfell, is abnormally warm for some reason, couldnt tell you why (though, i could crackpot all day that it's the night's queen absorbing the surrounding cold to keep herself alive, and thats why the warmer temperature). crackpot: The Night's King, was separated from his queen, she's imprisoned in winterfell's crypts, and he's trying to get to winterfell's crypts to be with her so they could rest in peace. Now thats NEVER going to happen. But it's how i'd like to see it. This is eerily similar to my NK and NQ are Romeo and Juliet theory. Have you been peaking into my brain? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 1. typical evil bad guys yes, because that's what they've shown us so the burden is on them to show us something else and until they do.... pure evil status2. I'd really like to know, but then this topic wouldn't be necessary if we knew. Guess: they're driven like ghosts are driven, by the echo of an ancient wrong and they want their day in court that's been denied them for so long, but the atonement they want from us is too absolute, too much of an overreaction in the eyes of humans. So we built the wall and now they bring the Cold and that's all there is...... until someone comes along and creates a dialogue or new ways of interacting with the Others (Jon, Bran).3. no the R'hllors are just sublimely powerful, like the Others. The elements crush us because they're giants in the playground, not because they have evil intent. People are the ones with evil intent and ambition, and they show it by attaching themselves to the awesome elements for personal gain. That might be why there's Others who care so much about doing us harm instead of the apathy you'd expect from an element of nature. People got caught up in the forces of physics through magic gone wonky and to date there's no cure. Like vampirism, only in the tundra. The reds and blues of the hot and cold camps are just wearing their gang colors when they talk trash. That's just propaganda. The great historical significance of Ice vs. Fire lies elsewhere, in past deeds not in pep rally cheers. 4. Bran's setup is identical to Arya's. Both are caught up in something that seems bigger than them, something that's been holding the status quo forever, but this is a moment of transition when it's perhaps best to depart from the status quo. Bloodraven is coiled to strike in one way, long planned, Bran and Arya may choose to strike in another way that's more improvised and true to their bloodline. They may create some unanticipated outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Malenkirk Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Old Nan said the night's king was a stark. There must always be a stark in winterfell. furthermore, they should be buried there in it's crypts. winterfell, is abnormally warm for some reason, couldnt tell you why (though, i could crackpot all day that it's the night's queen absorbing the surrounding cold to keep herself alive, and thats why the warmer temperature). crackpot: The Night's King, was separated from his queen, she's imprisoned in winterfell's crypts, and he's trying to get to winterfell's crypts to be with her so they could rest in peace. Now thats NEVER going to happen. But it's how i'd like to see it. Beside the fact it doesn't explain the first Long Night, it's a cool idea. But you should posit the reverse; logically, if the NK was a Stark, he's the one whose remains might be in Winterfell and the Queen, who disappeared and was never killed, is the one who might be trying to reclaim her beloved. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 They take Craster's children because it's a loophole. They arent breaking their vows, by taking a child. If they reproduce, they break the night's oath. By taking Craster's children, they technically arent reproducing, yet theyre still increasing their numbers. Taking a human baby and converting it to an Other is the same think as reproducing. And up until this point we've only ever heard of ONE female Other so there's no guarantee that there are more than one female Other. right now, it appears as though, they have one goal: to break through and get on the other side of the wall. You really think the iron throne holds any significance to beings with their powers and their magnitude? on-the-spot crackpot theory: Old Nan said the night's king was a stark. There must always be a stark in winterfell. furthermore, they should be buried there in it's crypts. winterfell, is abnormally warm for some reason, couldnt tell you why (though, i could crackpot all day that it's the night's queen absorbing the surrounding cold to keep herself alive, and thats why the warmer temperature). crackpot: The Night's King, was separated from his queen, she's imprisoned in winterfell's crypts, and he's trying to get to winterfell's crypts to be with her so they could rest in peace. Now thats NEVER going to happen. But it's how i'd like to see it. Winterfell itself has been built around an ancient godswood and over natural hot springs. The water is piped through walls and chambers to heat them, making Winterfell more comfortable than other castles during the harsh northern winters. But I do like the idea of the Night's King's Other wife being trapped under Winterfell, that would make things very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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