Nobody thinks the Others are pure evil, right?

[WildBlood]

Their little habit of slaughtering people left and right, then zombifying some, if not all of them, does kind of make me think they're Evil. Or at least devoid of empathy or compassion or tolerance; and thus either dangerous animals or enemies to be driven out or killed. It's not like they were competing for the resources of the highly populated South, the North is a huge enough area that there was room for the Others, especially Beyond the Wall.

We only think they are evil because they kill our kind. They probably think we are evil because we kill their kind. All perspectives are relative. It is survival of the fittest. Any species has to kill to survive or be killed.

[Tobyalan]

I can get behind the idea of the Others as a force of nature. Last year, a giant tornado came within a couple miles of destroying my home. It was the most terrifying thing I had ever experienced. The tornado wasn't evil, and I'm sure the Others don't see themselves as such. But as far as being the "Big Bad" of the series, I think that they certainly qualify as the largest obstacle to the human characters.

Secondly, in reference to the OP (and only because it is a personal pet peeve), the phrase you were looking for was "all intents and purposes" not "all intensive purposes". Your meaning was clear, of course.

[RainGhost]

I don't think the Others are entirely evil, that's not GRRM's style. I'm sure they have their own motivations and justifications that aren't as simple as 'let's kill all the humans just because'. I can't wait to find out more about their history - I'm sure the Night's King, the Starks and the CotF are crucial to it. I also don't think it's a coincidence that they've returned just when the realm is at its weakest and when there's no Stark in Winterfell. But what their aim is I don't know. If their aim is to kill all humans then that would make them evil in my eyes but in their eyes they may have a very good reason for it. After all, aren't the NW and wildlings trying to find out how to kill and eliminate all the Others? Is that not genicide? That's pretty evil in my book.

[Blazfemur]

All im saying, is that all history from 13th lord commander and prior, was purposefully erased. This much, is confirmed by Sam to Jon in the library. Why? Furthermore, everything we know about the night's watch, is from 14th and later.

-Furthermore, where are The Others' kingdom? They dont have one.. because they move.

-Let's take out the word, "reproduce," for a moment. The Night's Oath states, "father no children." Last I saw, none of the babies The Others have taken, were their own. So, it can be assumed, they didn't FATHER them.

-And again, this is going STRICTLY by "that" episode, which of course, is rendered completely inaccurate the moment we get written textual evidence, however, I didn't see any female Others in that group of 12, including The Queen. Ive seen female wights, however, i havent seen female Others (JUDGING BY THAT EPISODE ALONE THUS FAR, and lack of written textual Other knowledge)

-Furthermore again, going STRICTLY, by HBO's mess up naming the "leader" the Night's King, also to reiterate, there is no written evidence yet to prove otherwise, that apparently he's the one to turn humans to other. It's implied, when a living being gets turned, they become an other, and when a corpse gets turned, it's a wight. this would also lead into an implied hierarchy, of The King, to The Others, to Wights, thus far, and specifically "faith/belief system of sorts," as it appeared The Turning to be a ritual within a circle of pillars with an altar.

-The 12 could be the companions of the hero... or, they could be the lord commanders, the ones "erased" from The Night's Watch's histories.

You people sound outright offended, that someone would DARE try to piece this together on their own if it doesnt allign in your own theories. Respect all theories, even if theyr enot your own. Other than utter criticism of my own ideas, i havent heard much of yours.

It's in the blood. There's something there. Something, allows them to be turned. Either that, or something, allows the Others to let craster and the wildlings live in exchange for their numbers. I'd also like you to remember, that Craster's kid is at the Night's Watch right now -- NOT baby-beyond-the-wall (which supposedly has king's blood in melisandre's eyes). SO, if melisandre were to sacrifice the baby to resurrect jon as a lot of people have implied, she'd be sacrificing the baby that "technically" belongs to the Others. if there is any "contract" between wildlings and the others, she'd be breaking it by sacrificing what "belongs" to them.

[HexMachina]

Just sayin' Humanity (westeros division) kinda Has It Coming.

The nobles are the minority of the Westerosi population. A lot of the smallfolk and even some of the nobility have done nothing to deserve such a fate

[TheLastStark]

All im saying, is that all history from 13th lord commander and prior, was purposefully erased. This much, is confirmed by Sam to Jon in the library. Why? Furthermore, everything we know about the night's watch, is from 14th and later.

-Furthermore, where are The Others' kingdom? They dont have one.. because they move.

-Let's take out the word, "reproduce," for a moment. The Night's Oath states, "father no children." Last I saw, none of the babies The Others have taken, were their own. So, it can be assumed, they didn't FATHER them.

-And again, this is going STRICTLY by "that" episode, which of course, is rendered completely inaccurate the moment we get written textual evidence, however, I didn't see any female Others in that group of 12, including The Queen. Ive seen female wights, however, i havent seen female Others (JUDGING BY THAT EPISODE ALONE THUS FAR, and lack of written textual Other knowledge)

-Furthermore again, going STRICTLY, by HBO's mess up naming the "leader" the Night's King, also to reiterate, there is no written evidence yet to prove otherwise, that apparently he's the one to turn humans to other. It's implied, when a living being gets turned, they become an other, and when a corpse gets turned, it's a wight. this would also lead into an implied hierarchy, of The King, to The Others, to Wights, thus far, and specifically "faith/belief system of sorts," as it appeared The Turning to be a ritual within a circle of pillars with an altar.

-The 12 could be the companions of the hero... or, they could be the lord commanders, the ones "erased" from The Night's Watch's histories.

You people sound outright offended, that someone would DARE try to piece this together on their own if it doesnt allign in your own theories. Respect all theories, even if theyr enot your own. Other than utter criticism of my own ideas, i havent heard much of yours.

It's in the blood. There's something there. Something, allows them to be turned. Either that, or something, allows the Others to let craster and the wildlings live in exchange for their numbers. I'd also like you to remember, that Craster's kid is at the Night's Watch right now -- NOT baby-beyond-the-wall (which supposedly has king's blood in melisandre's eyes). SO, if melisandre were to sacrifice the baby to resurrect jon as a lot of people have implied, she'd be sacrificing the baby that "technically" belongs to the Others. if there is any "contract" between wildlings and the others, she'd be breaking it by sacrificing what "belongs" to them.

-I think your misunderstanding what a kingdom is to them, it would be the territory where they rule(Land of Always Winter), they have no need for subjects, or worshipers, or anything that humans take to be a kingdom. It seems(and I could be wrong) that they want to kill all living creatures and take over the world(or just westeros but if that was the case why would the red woman even care?). So they would be "taking" our lands as their own. Again they don't need to build buildings to claim a land. The COTF never built castles yet fought the FM to protect their lands.

-I will leave the word reproduce alone. But again, why do you assume they increase the population of their species the same way humans do? If anything it appears as if there are no female Others, and if that is truly the case how could they father children? And to father a child is reproducing. I doubt that converting baby boys to Others is the only way to increase their population, but at one point they must have increased it in a different manner, and however it was could be considered "fathering a child"

-If HBO let that slip, and their source is GRRM, then it might be true for the books too.

-It would make things very interesting if they were the other 12 LC's, or explain what happened to those 12 companions

[CharlesW]

The Others are incredibly old and incredibly alien, to a point that humans can't understand them. Who knows, maybe tens of thousand of years ago, the entire Westeros was cold and The Others were the only inhabitants, but something happened to the weather and they were driven further and further North to seek out colder climates. After they wake up from one of their slumbers, they found disgusting "alien" creatures like Children of the Forest and, even worse, humans crawling around in their land. So they tried to drive out and eradicate the "invaders."

[The Imperator]

What happens when the book reveals the Others reproduce by transforming babies? What about the prologue when we meet the Others for the first time and they slaughter Waymar Royce and laugh about it?

Serious question: What's the difference between evil and pure evil?

Serious question: what if the Others have to transform babies in order for their race to survive?

[Ser Charles of Rosehaven]

Me. They are the soul of evilness, They are cold, hate heat and smell of ranch dressing.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

When I think of the Others I can't help but think about this too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV5wmDhzgY8

[I'm the Party Pooper]

Serious question: what if the Others have to transform babies in order for their race to survive?

would that change anything?

Sauron had to subdue/kil the humans in order to fulfil the plans of his great master Morgoth, does that make him any less evil?

I find that necessity is not a reason for which my ethical judgement changes. At worst, it can force me allow exceptions, but I don't label evil as good only because it's a necessary evil. It still remains evil.

[Blazfemur]

-I think your misunderstanding what a kingdom is to them, it would be the territory where they rule(Land of Always Winter), they have no need for subjects, or worshipers, or anything that humans take to be a kingdom. It seems(and I could be wrong) that they want to kill all living creatures and take over the world(or just westeros but if that was the case why would the red woman even care?). So they would be "taking" our lands as their own. Again they don't need to build buildings to claim a land. The COTF never built castles yet fought the FM to protect their lands.

-I will leave the word reproduce alone. But again, why do you assume they increase the population of their species the same way humans do? If anything it appears as if there are no female Others, and if that is truly the case how could they father children? And to father a child is reproducing. I doubt that converting baby boys to Others is the only way to increase their population, but at one point they must have increased it in a different manner, and however it was could be considered "fathering a child"

-If HBO let that slip, and their source is GRRM, then it might be true for the books too.

-It would make things very interesting if they were the other 12 LC's, or explain what happened to those 12 companions

see, this is better to debate with, rather than argue with.

a question id like to ask is, while clearly their (undead[?]), are they truly their own race, or, would they fall into the "vengeful wraiths that have been wronged, come back to get revenge, and wont rest until something is remedied" kind of revenant. this would place motive to a certain extent.

thats the whole point, my friend: i dont assume they increase their number the same way humans do. thats my exact point. the night's oath specifically states, "father no children," right? ok, by Turning, it's not exactly fathering anyone. by taking someone ELSE's child, theyre not fathering their own, and with this loophole, still obiding by the night's oath. they specifically DONT increase their numbers as humans do, and thats how they still are loyal to the night's oath.

the reason why this topic is so sensitive, is because we have literally 3 minutes of footage to base all theories off of, and literally ZERO written textual evidence, other than Craster and wildlings giving up babies for some reason.

also, yes, they could be the 12 companions, or the 12 lord commanders. and the following is a genuine question because it's been awhile since i read the books, but, is it impossible, that the 13, can be both the old lord commanders AND the last hero/companions? would it be out there if they were one in the same?

[Ali Colak]

Discussions of non-human good and evil in Westeros, often remind me of Lovecraft’s Cthulhu mythos, which is populated by beings that –though they may harm or benefit human beings, are neither truly good nor evil. Thus, I don’t see the others as pure evil, as they're too alien for that.

they have a purpose, people. the 14th Lord Commander, saw fit, to eliminate all history of the night's watch, fromt eh 13th LC and backward. WHY>!>!!>

we're playing a game of telephone from 14th LC and forward, of what happened to 13th and before. AND WE'RE GOING BY THE 14TH'S WORD.

Again, this could all be heresay, especially since the only information we have to go on is that little slip-up HBO had confirming it was THe Night's King leading the Others. There's no book evidence he even EXISTS.

Still, on THAT episode, there were 13 of them. Including TNK. That means, theoretically, and assuming, that circle of 13 are the first 13 LC's.

How are the 13 taking Craster's children, and making them Others, different from The Night's Watch making their members members, and taking the oath? Admittedly, they're always given the "choice," but some arent even given that choice (if youre a criminal, it's TNW or death).

I'd like to reiterate, and correlate, and any other "ates" you wanna throw in there, The Others are openly and blatantly FOLLOWING the night's oath. Why do you think that is? again, theyre nomadic (hold no lands), they take craster's children (father no children), and the children are boys (hold no wives).

Craster, technically, is an oathbreaker wildling. He holds craster's keep, has 18 or so wives (cant remember the number), and fathers MANY children. They're also either ALL bastards, or if his daughters are recognized as wives officially, none of them are. So theoretically all the future "Others" are the "Other" children, the bastard children, the pitied, the "cursed," like Jon and Ramsay always were.

Going deeper, you all also need to realize and question why Others choose wildling children in particular to make their own (unofficially, because it isnt "reproduction" by normal standards). Does Craster have king's blood? Noble blood? First Men blood (i think it's first men blood). Or even TARG blood (who the hell knows right now, right?)

What is it about Craster's children, is it a toll? a tax? some form of agreement... i still think the secret was at that great ranging, when Jon and TNW visited that village and found "nothing." I think there was soemthing there.. they found a weirwood, and burned bodies. i think there was something more there, a secret, possibly to craster's past, or his mother, or something.

Regardless, it has to be a blood-secret. I feel, anyway.

The Old Night's Watch (The Others, 13th LC and backward), obviously have a gripe with The New Night's Watch (14th LC and on), and theres a secret that 14th LC tried to cover up by eliminating all prior histories from TNW library (per Sam to Jon)

ETA P.S.- actually, if you think about it, Old Nan had told Bran, it's rumoured TNK was a Bolton, but she thinks it was a Stark. What's ironic, is that the oncoming war is bastard v bastard, snow vs snow, or, Bolton vs Stark(?). Perhaps one of them ascends, in the midst of the oncoming Other raid. Future NK(?) Old Nan may have predicted the next contender to the ice throne ;)

Spot on.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

see, this is better to debate with, rather than argue with.

a question id like to ask is, while clearly their (undead[?]), are they truly their own race, or, would they fall into the "vengeful wraiths that have been wronged, come back to get revenge, and wont rest until something is remedied" kind of revenant. this would place motive to a certain extent.

thats the whole point, my friend: i dont assume they increase their number the same way humans do. thats my exact point. the night's oath specifically states, "father no children," right? ok, by Turning, it's not exactly fathering anyone. by taking someone ELSE's child, theyre not fathering their own, and with this loophole, still obiding by the night's oath. they specifically DONT increase their numbers as humans do, and thats how they still are loyal to the night's oath.

the reason why this topic is so sensitive, is because we have literally 3 minutes of footage to base all theories off of, and literally ZERO written textual evidence, other than Craster and wildlings giving up babies for some reason.

also, yes, they could be the 12 companions, or the 12 lord commanders. and the following is a genuine question because it's been awhile since i read the books, but, is it impossible, that the 13, can be both the old lord commanders AND the last hero/companions? would it be out there if they were one in the same?

They're not "clearly undead" just clearly they have and use some form of magic. GRRM has said that they aren't human so I'm not sure race would be the term...different species altogether maybe?

I don't really see why you assume the Others are following the oath of the Night's Watch when we don't have enough information to think that they don't marry, don't hold land, and don't reproduce. We don't even know that they only take boys, only that Craster only offered them. They could have another Wildling to the east whose providing them with girls.

No, they can't be both the 12 companions and the first 12 LsC unless Nan left out the part about the first 12 LsC being reanimated corpses. All twelve of the Last Hero's companions died. The Last Hero was the only one who returned, and along with the newly created Night's Watch helped defeat the Others. More than likely if the LH's companions were reanimated (like Coldhands say) they stayed up north and did not fight in the battle.

[NorthernXY]

4. Who do you think Bloodraven is ultimately serving? And in turn if Bran will follow in his footsteps or rebel?

This is a huge question. GRRM has stated that all the Stark children are wargs to one degree or another.

I don't know if I want to get into genetics - this is fantasy, not scifi. I don't think this is necessarily a 'Stark' ability, though all the children have it to one extent or another. They also realize it to one extent or another. Arya doesn't realize she has it, she keeps thinking she has these weird dreams, and of course Bran is much further along -- GRRM

Being a warg is 1:1,000, the chance that all 5 true born children and Jon (5+1) are wargs are too coincidentally high for it to happen by chance. Therefore I can only assume the 6 dire wolves (4 male 2 female) and the 6 children (4 male 2 female) have something to do with Bloodraven and his master plan to keep them safe. Sansa lost Lady and she has not shown the ability to warg other creatures like Arya. Jon realized his full potential when in a dream "something/Bran" opened his third eye and he saw the Wildings at the Frost Fangs. There are no POV's of Rickon or Robb, so we don't know their connection/ability, but one had his wolf by his side till the end of both, Rickon still has his.

I can only guess BR's connection is/was to keep the Starks safe because only the Starks really care about Wall (to a degree) and have the power/birth right to to protect it.

[Dorne in the USA]

The Night's King laid with an other at the Wall and loved her. I believe the love between them is ultimately why the others are so intent on destroying Westeros, specifically the Starks bc he was one and his two brothers forced his hand. They are definitely not evil at all. The killing left and right is coming from their army just like men command their army. They have to have a leader and they will find a way to communicate,possibly Bran and BR......

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The Others are like the Great Old Ones from H.P. Lovecraft waiting for their time to take back Westeros . For untold millennia the Others were the true kings of winter while the Children ruled the summer. That all changed with the coming of the First Men and the pact. The Others is only trying to tke back their land from the invaders .

[Blazfemur]

Spot on.

Thank you kindly, good ser.

A twist that The Night's Watch (while unknowingly) may be rooted in corruption and that actually The Others were wronged, would be one hell of a twist. The reveal to Jon (if current circumstances are changed) would definitely be a WTF moment. Furthermore, Jon's decision to SIDE with the Others, would be the ultimate betrayal in the eyes of the Night's Watch (theyd think, "oh, clearly he's evil, he's wrong, first the wildlings, now OTHERS?! oh hell naw").

i wonder, if Jon resurrects, if he'll be truly resurrected as himself, or resurrected as a wight, or an other. im thinking other, intelligible (like coldhands/the lady)

It makes me also wonder, if it'll be Melisandre that awakens him (using Craster's last baby, and if there is some "magic" to his agreement with Others, if this'll be taken as a slight, (taking whats THEIRS, sort of thing), OR, if it'll be an Other that finds his body, and awakens him.

[John Doe]

For all we know, the Others are the enemy of any lifing being, apart from maybe themselves. From our perspective this would classify them as evil.

[Steelborn]

They seem evil to humans. The way humans seem evil to boars while we kill them for a fun hunt or to take their skin.

edit: actually, you've already pointed that :cheers: