(Spoilers) Sons of the Dragon Reading at LonCon Today

[yolkboy]

Thank you guys for the notes. I'm really happy that Aenys wasn't described as a soft-soft king. It seems that he was a decent warrior but had more artistic pursuits (singing, learning...). I like him even more now

I haven't got time to read what the (very nice dudes) aratan and lord varys have written....

But regarding being soft, Aenys was frail since birth, as babies the two half bros very different. Aenys wouldn't suck wet nurses tits, very sickly, needed mother.... This was all part of the build up toward what eventually happened to him. He was smart and likeable but weak on several fronts. When bandits arose, aenys wanted to understand why they did it, rather than stop them with force. He was actually well liked as a person (but hated as a king).... Bohemian intellectual type.... But seemed to crumble under pressure towards the end. Aenys' softness was definitely targeted by the faith and others, they knew they could turn smallfolk against him and they could take him on without much bother. If aenys had used his dragon a bit more, I doubt faith would have grown teeth.

Regarding wiki and notes ... I can't do a write up until I get home for various reasons, but will be able to shade in gaps. Perhaps I will consult with rhaenys at some point, to make sure timeline is solid and all desired details have been addressed.

[Lord Varys]

Edited the post and elaborated more on the sign stuff.

[History of Westeros]

House Strong had two different men rule as Hand of the King.

Though there are still a few gaps in the total list of all Hands, it appears that only House Lannister, House Merryweather, House Butterwell and House Targaryen have multiple Hands.

I suppose the warring regents period could change this info.

[RumHam]

It's really surprising that Aegon had such good relations with Dorne after Rhaenys' death.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So Lord Royce acted against Jonos Arryn, which caused Ronnel and his family to get killed... There would have been no way that Jonos would have gotten away with that, and next that happens after Jonos' death is that the Arryn with a Royce wife (and 6 children by her, thus plenty of heirs) inherits the Eyrie...

A bit coincidental? Did this marriage marriage between Hubert Arryn and his Royce wife take place after Jonos' death, or before? (Or don't we know about that?)

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

thank you for the notes.

Why was Maegor exiled?

[History of Westeros]

thank you for the notes.

Why was Maegor exiled?

Because he took a 2nd wife without permission.

Given how tense relations with the Faith were at that time, this was a major blow to such, and Aenys had to act. Or so it seems.

[Prince of the North]

Thanks to everyone for the great notes! Very interesting!

That makes a lot of sense given the naming convention. GRRM said the names that represent simple things or places tend to be First Men houses. Gardener, Peat, Branch, Blackwood, Mudd, Fisher etc. "Strong" certainly fits that.

Most if not all the Strongs we've seen are large men.

Lyonel was big, Harwin was the strongest in the realm, Larys was clubfooted but that doesn't mean he wasn't big (we just don't know). Ser Lucamore the Lusty may not have been big, but it's likely enough that he was, if not Strong besides, given that he was a Kingsguard.

I had a hard time figuring out when Ser Lucamore lived, as I was trying to place it during the Strongs time at Harrenhal, but now it seems more likely Ser Lucamore existed before the Strongs got Harrenhal.

Then there is Ser Robert, obviously not related, hah. But as huge as they come.

Just musing but I wonder if there could be connections between the robber knight "The Giant of the Trident" and House Strong (which is from the Riverlands)? Also, I wonder if Qyburn (since he studied at the Citadel) knows enough history and knows of House Strong's penchant for large men so that led him to passing off his abomination made from what's left of Gregor Clegane as a Strong? Would make sense to me :dunno:

[lojzelote]

Oh so much new info; thank you, guys (and gals)!

On the topic of Aegon's and the sisters' fertility, in the old days I assumed that they had few children because both women were actively ruling the (new and unstable) kingdom from dragonback and pregnancy and childbirth would have weigthed them down, so to speak. Pre-Conquest, they might have chosen to wait with children deliberately, for fear of what could happen to their offspring if they weren't so successful in their Westerosi adventure. I don't know what to make of the news, but Maegor had to have some father, Aegon or otherwise; no sorceress can be so good, lol. Anyways, so far it appears that the rumours of Aenys' bastardy started mainly because Aenys wasn't what people were expecting of his father's son (which in itself means little; see Daemon Blackfyre vs. Daemon II) rather than Rhaenys' proclivities.

Aegon's rule must have been awkward; I wonder how the High Septon or other members of the Faith or Westerosi on the whole acted when they met his queenly sister-wives or princely incest-born sons... "Don't get me wrong, Your Grace, you're our one true king as our last HS had proclaimed, but may be I'll rise against your abominable sons one day. You see, they are vile mishaps and so had been your Valyrian ancestors, for the whole of the Freehold's history, eh, but I'm sure we'll solve this issue during the dinner... You say Queen Visenya will be present as well? Eh, then I guess we'll speak of how the work on your new capitol is progressing instead." :drunk:

[The Dragon Demands]

Sooooo Braavos' religious tolerance comes from Valyria? That's cool. But I still want to learn about Valyrian gods and goddesses.

I get the impression that the Valyrian Freehold was "religiously tolerant" in much the same way that the Roman Republic was (and the Valyrians are heavily inspired by the Romans).

The Romans usually didn't care what local religion or gods you worshiped...so long as you paid taxes to the imperial cult (later on). Christians and Jews only really offended them because they believed in a SINGLE monotheistic god, and outright denied the existence of other gods (plus they would refuse to pay money to the royal cult).

There's a difference between "tolerant and allowing religious freedom" as Braavos does, and the Valyrian's attitude of "let the vassal states and slaves worship as they will, so long as they work and pay taxes, if it helps placate them."

Yeah I got a Godfather vibe from his death too....and from Princess and the Queen, Viserys I died very much the same way. Well, he was sick in bed and was telling stories to his grandchildren about how his own grandfather Jaehaerys I had ridden a dragon to the Wall. GRRM seems to be going to the well on that one, but dang it, it's a great visual.

[History of Westeros]

Also, I wonder if Qyburn (since he studied at the Citadel) knows enough history and knows of House Strong's penchant for large men so that led him to passing his abomination made from what's left of Gregor Clegane as a Strong? Would make sense to me :dunno:

I've made this exact same guess (and Qyburn spent a lot of time at Harrenhal with Roose, where House Strong ruled for quite a while). I think it's a good theory.

[The Dragon Demands]

Lord Varys: I explained before, you're doing amazing work, and I was making an unrelated comment about my annoyance at drinking at conventions in general. This was unrelated to you in any way.

Given that you are editing your original post with every update, we'll be referring to it for weeks, and I'd rather that you edit out the part referring to me at the end, because it was based on a misunderstanding and I don't want it to be continued. I'm sorry that my post was confusing.

[History of Westeros]

I get the impression that the Valyrian Freehold was "religiously tolerant" in much the same way that the Roman Republic was (and the Valyrians are heavily inspired by the Romans).

The Romans usually didn't care what local religion or gods you worshiped...so long as you paid taxes to the imperial cult (later on). Christians and Jews only really offended them because they believed in a SINGLE monotheistic god, and outright denied the existence of other gods (plus they would refuse to pay money to the royal cult).

There's a difference between "tolerant and allowing religious freedom" as Braavos does, and the Valyrian's attitude of "let the vassal states and slaves worship as they will, so long as they work and pay taxes, if it helps placate them."

Yeah I got a Godfather vibe from his death too....and from Princess and the Queen, Viserys I died very much the same way. Well, he was sick in bed and was telling stories to his grandchildren about how his own grandfather Jaehaerys I had ridden a dragon to the Wall. GRRM seems to be going to the well on that one, but dang it, it's a great visual.

Agree.

The tolerance think does't seem to be related to Braavos at all, btw.

Braavos was founded by escaped slaves, slaves from all over the world. Which means that they have a huge diversity in religion. This is the main source for their religious tolerance/acceptance, imo.

[The Dragon Demands]

Whoa...Ronnel.

So we've got "half a dozen" dragons which hatched by the 20's AL, and another two which hatched in the late 30's AL on the same day (possibly Vermithor and Silverwing).

I would caution that we know from Rhaena of Pentos that not every dragon hatchling survived to maturity, so six hatchlings doesn't necessarily mean that they became six live dragons.

Let's see...the bigger dragons during the Dance in the 130's were:

Vermithor

Silverwing

Caraxes

Meleys the Red Queen

Syrax

of lesser size were "Tessarion the Blue Queen" and Seasmoke

Sheepstealer hatched early in the reign of Jaehaerys I, and the Cannibal was even older than him.

Not sure why Meleys and Tessarion got called "Queens" (I assume they laid eggs) but Syrax didn't (even though Syrax did lay eggs).

Wait, the wording got mixed up, Lodos wasn't "real" any more than Harren the Red was? Did this truly extinguish House Qoherys?

[Prince of the North]

I've made this exact same guess (and Qyburn spent a lot of time at Harrenhal with Roose, where House Strong ruled for quite a while). I think it's a good theory.

Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense when thought about. I mean, from Qyburn's point of view he'd be asking himself what he should do to give his creation an alias that is believable considering its immense size? Eureka! It just so happens that there is a sufficiently obscure House that is known for immense physical stature! I just think it's kind of neat that Martin seems to have even thought of this small detail, etc. (although it's not surprising) :)

[History of Westeros]

Whoa...Ronnel.

So we've got "half a dozen" dragons which hatched by the 20's AL, and another two which hatched in the late 30's AL on the same day (possibly Vermithor and Silverwing).

I would caution that we know from Rhaena of Pentos that not every dragon hatchling survived to maturity, so six hatchlings doesn't necessarily mean that they became six live dragons.

Let's see...the bigger dragons during the Dance in the 130's were:

Vermithor

Silverwing

Caraxes

Meleys the Red Queen

Syrax

of lesser size were "Tessarion the Blue Queen" and Seasmoke

Sheepstealer hatched early in the reign of Jaehaerys I, and the Cannibal was even older than him.

Not sure why Meleys and Tessarion got called "Queens" (I assume they laid eggs) but Syrax didn't (even though Syrax did lay eggs).

Wait, the wording got mixed up, Lodos wasn't "real" any more than Harren the Red was? Did this truly extinguish House Qoherys?

The name "Queen" seems to be a coloration thing (we've discussed this prior, though I cannot recall which thread it was). Tessarion's horns were bright copper, giving her the appearance of wearing a crown. Meleys, same: bright copper crest.

Like you, my first guess had to do with egg laying, but that guess has been blown out of the water.

Early on there seemed to be more dragons than Targs, and later the balance was more even, AND they started giving eggs to newborn Targs, which Varys points out wasn't a regular thing during Aegon's time and apparently before.

I suspect The Cannibal is from this era of "not enough Targs". Maegor not taking a dragon is just one fewer available dragonrider.

[Veltigar]

Thanks to all the people who are willing to share their info with us. You guys are gold :D

I wonder what possessed Jonos. There was no way his plan could have worked no?

[Moondancer]

Lord Varys,

Gotcha :thumbsup:

[naseridrl]

I'm not sure where to ask this but considering its partly been mentioned in this thread I'll ask here. Could someone please explain to me the difference between the World Book and Fire and Blood? I've only recently got into the expanded universe beyond the main novels so don't really know too much about the various other books that are coming out.

[History of Westeros]

I'm not sure where to ask this but considering its partly been mentioned in this thread I'll ask here. Could someone please explain to me the difference between the World Book and Fire and Blood? I've only recently got into the expanded universe beyond the main novels so don't really know too much about the various other books that are coming out.

GRRM wrote a ton of material for the World Book (due out Oct 28th). Too much in fact, they couldn't use it all. They didn't want to just throw it in the trash (that would be an epic tragedy!) of course, so they scheduled a 2nd history book for release after ASOIAF is completely finished. So FIre and Blood is a looong time from being published.