(Spoilers) Sons of the Dragon Reading at LonCon Today

[DMC]

I echo the many thanks to Lord Varys and the other contributors - made my night!

I've quite enjoyed the discussion of the strong, if not apparent, evidence that Visenya designed Aenys' death in one way or another. In particular, the prospect that Visenya was indeed barren and used sorcery to conceive Maegor (whether with Aegon's...aid or not) is some grade A speculation. To extend the speculation into crackpot, I had a thought that I'm sure has been mentioned before but I haven't seen in this thread - how about Maegor's name being a Targaryen-ized name for maegi? And if that's the case, what does that portend for Maegor's Holdfast, and the Red Keep as a whole? After all, the Wall (and likely Storm's End) are said to be forged with some kind of 'sorcery' or 'knowledge' - whatever conception of the supernatural the locals choose to define it as. Mayhaps the secrets of the Red Keep delve well beyond the children of the corn scurrying through long-forgotten passages. Ah, pointless and wanton speculation is such good times.

[Arataniello]

I think we are going to find out he is not from any noble house in Dorne/ Stormlands but in fact is a Targ bastard?!?

I really hope this isn't the case. Just because no House was named in the reading doesn't mean the VK doesn't have a family name. It could just mean that GRRM didn't think it was important for us to know what it is, or indeed not important enough for him to even decide.

[Fire Eater]

It appears that Ridley Scott isn't the only one who is inspired by Prometheus :D

Also, I just got to say it... Savage Sam Tarly is a much better nickname than Sam the Slayer.

I see the Prometheus reference as well. We have a Samwell Tarly killing a king, and I think we will see that again in TWoW with another king whose named is associated with a bird.

One of Orys's sons joined the KG, Raymont.

The Faith doesn't exactly seem to be focused too much on morality and ethics with Poor Fellows attacking a family in their sleep, and hacking an unarmed (former) septon to pieces.

In seizing control of the capital, and sending the royal family packing the HS looked like he was attempting to make himself the undisputed ruler of Westeros; making Westeros into a kind of theocracy under the dominion of the Faith. Of course, the Starks and North would have a problem with that, and could have made allies with the Targaryens on that front.

[The Vulture King]

"The Valyrians practiced incest. The dragonlords led the way, but the custom was not restricted to them. Sister to brother was supposed to be ideal, failing that uncle, aunts, nieces, nephews or cousins were chosen. Sorcerer princes also practiced polygamy, but that was not as common as incest. [That could mean/indicate that Aenar Targaryen was a sorcerer as well as a dragonlord.]"

Does this mean you need sorcery to keep dragons if you don't/can't practice incest?

[The Dragon Demands]

We should also get the spelling straight.

Since all of those who have posted from the reading agree that the name of Maegor's first wife was Ceryse, it takes a particular kind of arrogance to unilaterally decide that we are all wrong.

Sorry. I directly asked "Hey, is it Ceryse or Cersei?" and I got no specific reply.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Interesting ending. A few things:

- after Maegor left in exile, septon Murmison was supposed to make Ceryse fertile. How was he supposed to do that without Maegor in Westeros? Was she supposed to first birth a bastard to prove she was fertile?

- Raymont Baratheon, has he been confirmed to have been a son of Orys? Or is it possible he was s grandson of Orys? (Which would place his age in late teens, early twenties)

- princess Deria is still active 40 years after the Conquest. With the Yellow Toad in her 80ties at the Conquest, I'm guessing that Deria isn't Meria's child, but a grandchild (and thus that between Meris and Deria, there could have been another Dornish ruler)

- it has been stated that Maegor would end up having 6 wives (though it has also been said he perhaps had up to 8 or 9 wives). If he indeed had 6 wives in the end, he would have had as many wives as Aenys had children

- still find it a by suspicious that the actions of Lord Royce lead to the death of the first few Arryn heirs, which causes the Arryn with a Royce wife (and with plenty of children by her) to be named lord of the Vale

- nothing on when Maegor claimed Balerion? I'm guessing before his exile, in between 37 and 39.

In any case, to anyone who made notes which allowed all of us here to read what had been read by GRRM.. thank you all very, very much!! :D

Regarding wiki and notes ... I can't do a write up until I get home for various reasons, but will be able to shade in gaps. Perhaps I will consult with rhaenys at some point, to make sure timeline is solid and all desired details have been addressed.

:Thumbsup: :D

[Lord Varys]

TDD,

Your write-up of the reports is somewhat erroneous. For instance, Maegor accompanied Alyssa's father Aethon to the Stepstones, not Aegon I.

I've also mentioned in my updated post that the spelling is confirmed unless I mark it. Ceryse is confirmed - the name and the spelling.

It's unbased speculation that the rift between Aegon and Visenya had anything to do with her preferring Maegor over Aenys. There could have been other reasons, and I'd actually like to believe that Visenya only killed Aenys - if she did it - because she came to the conclusion that Aenys would or could not save the Targaryen rule of Westeros.

Walter Wyl was the son of the Wyl who cut off Orys' son, not that Lord himself.

There are no miscarriages, stillbirths, or monstrosities mentioned in the reading, neither in connection to Ceryse, nor in connection to Alys. This should inidicate that Maegor did not impregnate any woman throughout the reigns of his father and brother. The mostrosities most likely came later, during his own reign.

Whatever happens to Maegor prior to the beginning of his campaign against the Faith Militant, poison doesn't seem to be a likely option anymore. My guess is that it had something to do with the reconquest of KL and the RK.

Some of your other speculations should also be marked as such.

Arataniello,

Thanks for the additional stuff. I remembered the tidbit of Murmison and Ceryse, but forgot to include it.

Continuing the black magic angle:

If assume that there was magic involved in Maegor's conception, this could explained why he became a sort of twisted version of strong warrior - Visenya most likely wanted a son stronger than Aenys. And there is also a good chance that this magic may have contributed to/caused Maegor's fertility problems. I guess he may have tried magic, too, at a later point (perhaps with Tyanna's assistance?) to overcome that particular problem. If that's the case, then the mostrosities could have a magical cause, i.e. resembling Rhaego in that fashion.

Rhaenys,

It seems as if Hubert Arryn was already married to his Royce wife when the rebellion broke out. Gyldayn phrases it as if he already had the six children when he becomes Lord of the Vale.

And Maegor claimed Balerion in 37, before he dealt with Jonos, of course ;-)!

[Moondancer]

Arataniello,

Murmison to make C. Hightower fertile - again? So, she was pregnant at some point? Or her marriage to Maegor isn't her first?

So,Vhagar could be red, if the Moon turned red once Vhagar flew across its light? The one depiction of Meraxes also displays the red colour (admittedly, could be creative licence) -

So, I'd guess both Vhagar & Meraxes are red, Balerion is black, hence the colouring of the sigil of house Targaryen.

[Maia]

Thanks to everybody who reported the reading! Very interesting.

After this new info, it does seem likely to me that Aegon was sterile. It makes no sense IMHO that his wives wouldn't have seen the need to produce some kids before they started with the Conquest (surely the need for heirs was apparent? Particularly if they succeded, as they did?) and _they _ were demonstrably fertile. No bastards for Aegon either, as far as I can see.

It also looks very likely that Visenya did use magic to produce Maegor, either from Aegon's otherwise unviable seed or in some other way and we see the whole "magic is a sword without a hilt" aspect here. Maybe that's why "sorceror princes" practiced polygamy? Because they were affected by their magic and had difficulty siring viable offspring?

I actually have a lot of sympathy with Visenya - it seems that she "took one for the team" when creating Maegor and then had to watch her sacrifice not being sufficiently aknowledged and honored, etc. She also didn't do anything against Aenys and even had propped his regime until he mismanaged the things so badly that they were about to lose everything that she had worked so hard to win.

That she didn't do more to try to arrange some kind of peaceful accomodation between Maegor and his brothers's children is deplorable, however. I mean, Maegor was childless and the realm was in dangerous uproar, surely some kind of arrangement with Prince Aegon and Co. with the latter being confirmed as the heir should have been possible?

So, not Cersei or Alicent, methinks. I wish that she had been given something more prominent to do after Aegon's death, though - would her personally quashing one of the rebellions had been too much to ask? I mean, there is such a dearth of women, even dragonriders actually doing important things in Westerosi history so far.

Oh, well. It is a pity that she died before Maegor, too, since there could have been so much dramatic potential in her possibly having to put him down in the end, when _he_ became the one destroying Targaryen legacy...

But why on earth was Rhaenys trying to conquer Dorne again, without her siblings, no less, when she had a small, frail child and wasn't all that warlike to begin with? And how was it that Aegon, who allegedly loved Rhaenys so much, became so friendly with Dorne afterwards, even though he never even got her bones back?!

I disagree that Aenys could have ever been a decent king, BTW, or that Daeron II would have had any problems if he had been a dragonrider. Their similarities are entirely superficial. A king has to be decisive and not align himself with whomever spoke to him last! Even Viserys I was better in that regard.

As to why Aenys married Aegon to Rhaena - maybe he feared his descendants losing their ability to control dragons? It is possible that Alyssa had little Targaryen blood and there were concerns about diluting it further. It is notable that even after all the upheaval this marriage had caused, Jaehaerys and Alysanne have been still married to each other later...

[Lord Varys]

Aegon being sterile is not an unlikely posiibility. Aenys may have been fathered by another man, and in Maegor's conception magic may have been involved. There is a decent chance that Aegon never wanted a child with Visenya - we already know that he did not share her bed all that often. But the fact that his beloved Rhaenys didn't give him any children prior to the Conquest and during the seven years thereafter is really very strange...

On Aenys:

Well, he could have been a good king in a Aerys-Tywin, or Aerys-Bloodraven kind of thing. He could make friends easily, and should have been a good ruler in peace times when decisions could be made easily. We should also keep in mind that he was apparently somewhat strong/determined in some things - Maegor's exile, the continuation of the incest...

Oh, and nobody said that Rhaenys tried to conquer Dorne on her own, with her dragon. All we know is that she died there.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaenys,

And Maegor claimed Balerion in 37, before he dealt with Jonos, of course ;-)!

*facepalm* Of course! Wow, I read that, but it seems I somehow completely managed to forget that.. and that all within a minute or so.. *goes searching for a cup of coffee*

I was still having twinkling stars in my eyes from reading confirmed birth years for all of Aenys' kids, I guess. You know I love that kind of stuff! :D

[Anath]

So Aenys first exiled Maegor for polygamy because hey, this Targaryen practice was a bad, bad thing and then had his other children married in an equally deplored Targaryen fashion? He really knew how to keep family relations sweet, this one.

Do we know for sure that Visenya didn't try to work out some settlement between Maegor and Aenys' surviving children? She might have, given the fact that her entire life, she's been an active politician. On the other hand, she might have been officially pissed, finally, by being treated as second best and vouched for a final rift.

Maia, I agree about the similarities between Aenys and Daeron II being superficial. To be fair, I think the same about the similarities between Maegor and Daemon Blackfyre. I am not Daemon's fan and I am team Daeron all the way but he wasn't Daemon the Cruel.

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

Aegon being sterile is not an unlikely posiibility. Aenys may have been fathered by another man, and in Maegor's conception magic may have been involved.

Lord Varys maybe on to something with this. The Bubicon reading seemed to give one the impression of Aenys having sisters, but now we know for certain that Aenys and Maegor were the only "children" of Aegon. The joke's on the Targaryens, who throughout their 300 year reign of Westeros have proudly cited their kinship with the Conqueror.

I, personally, was struggling to comprehend why Aegon had so few children, whose conception was pretty late by highborn standards. But this may put things into perspective.

[Veltigar]

As to the rift between Aegon and Visenya. An alternative scenario for their falling out might have been Dorne. After Rhaenys died, Aegon seems to have been broken and left the prospect of Dornish conquest. Visenya might have urged for a continuation of the conflict, to avenge Rhaenys and get Dorne into the fold.

~43ish - Maegor and Visenya somehow reclaim the nascent Red Keep. For a time he is fairly popular and some see this as hope for a reset with the Faith. Prince Aegon tries to lead a revolt against Maegor but is killed in the Battle Beneath the God's Eye (which may have occurred later, after the start of the Faith Militant uprising as an actual war). Then Maegor gets poisoned, but due to the intervention of Visenya and Tyanna of Pentos he survives. His first act upon recovering is to fly Balerion to the Sept of Remembrance and burn all of the Warrior's Sons alive. Alyssa flees to Casterly Rock with her surviving children, Jaehaerys and Alysanne.

Do we know for sure that Alyssa fled to CR with Jaeherys and Alysanne? I remember from the report of the Lannister reading that someone sought shelter within CR, but wasn't that Aegon and Rhaena?

And the Battle Beneath the God's Eye is imo definitely after the outbreak of the FM uprising. If that war hadn't started already, Aegon might have made a deal with the HS to provide him with troops. But now everyone was in it for themselves.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Wait, let's get the chronology straight here...

snp

I think all of this should be removed from that post. Seeing as there is only one source on this, which we are not allowed to discuss the contents of on forum, and in addition, which gives other years on some of the stuff stated in this part of the post, it should be removed.

This wasn't in the Sons of the Dragon reading (nor in the Westerlands reading) after all, and the SotD reading is what we discuss here.

[Moondancer]

I think that Rhaenys not producing an heir to Targaryen family in the years before the Conquest is an excellent "PR" move in addition to the probable fact that they have been busy with their ambitions.

The heir that is born in front of the eyes of the public, so to speak - born to the King and Queen, labeled as our prince as opposed to a child that's simply brought in along with their parents is a much better solution in a society where small, trifle superstitions, "omens" and customs can develop into reasons for the wars and treachery.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think that Rhaenys not producing an heir to Targaryen family in the years before the Conquest is an excellent "PR" move in addition to the probable fact that they have been busy with their ambitions.

The heir that is born in front of the eyes of the public, so to speak - born to the King and Queen, labeled as our prince as opposed to a child that's simply brought in along with their parents is a much better solution in a society where small, trifle superstitions, "omens" and customs can develop into reasons for the wars and treachery.

Or Aegon hadn't married Rhaenys that long before the Conquest, but only shortly before. We don't know when Aegons father died, and whether or not he supported a double marriage, do we? If Aerion would nit have been supportive, Aegon might most likely have waited until his father had died before marrying Rhaenys.

[Moondancer]

Or Aegon hadn't married Rhaenys that long before the Conquest, but only shortly before. We don't know when Aegons father died, and whether or not he supported a double marriage, do we? If Aerion would not have been supportive, Aegon might most likely have waited until his father had died before marrying Rhaenys.

Indeed. (I don't think she was his spouse longer than 2,3 years prior to becoming a queen.)

Sometimes we sound like the gossipiest of the Westerosi :D

[Maia]

There is a decent chance that Aegon never wanted a child with Visenya - we already know that he did not share her bed all that often.

But he did so occasionally, which could have been enough for a kid or 2. There must have been a reason for him and others to think that Maegor was his son.

But the fact that his beloved Rhaenys didn't give him any children prior to the Conquest and during the seven years thereafter is really very strange...

Indeed. And no bastards after her death either, even though he didn't sleep with Visenya often and later not at all, it seems.

On Aenys:

Well, he could have been a good king in a Aerys-Tywin, or Aerys-Bloodraven kind of thing. He could make friends easily, and should have been a good ruler in peace times when decisions could be made easily.

The problem is that from what I understand from the reports Aenys was a weathervane who wouldn't have just let a strong and competent Hand rule while essentially doing PR himself and otherwise not interfering like Louis XIII. Or just not interfering like Aerys I.

On the contrary, he'd have listened to the latest person to badger him and acted on it. That would have been very difficult/impossible even for a "Tywin" to manage, particularly in a situation where he and the king often had to be physically separate, and it would have been impossible to strictly control access to Aenys. Maybe if a Hand cooperated very closely with Alyssa...

I mean, Aenys had Maegor and Visenya and he didn't manage to form such a working relationship with them or anybody else.

It is also quite possible to massively blunder during peace time and unleash chaos and destruction as a result. See Louis XVI or Viserys I (even though in his case stuff only happened after his death).

Oh, and nobody said that Rhaenys tried to conquer Dorne on her own, with her dragon. All we know is that she died there.

But it does seem odd that she was there at all, given that her sickly kid was the only heir the 3 of them had and she was the least martial of the 3 to boot. Somebody had to hold the fort, surely, and she seemed to be the best candidate for that.

Oh, and BTW, we now know that there was no sister of Aenys to marry into House Stark. The last chance of such a union would now be an unnamed daughter of Jaehaerys I, yes? Though, of course they could still have gotten Targaryen blood indirectly, from a family that did intermarry with the Targs. We shall see.

The High Septon proclaiming that marrying Maegor to Rhaena would be an abomination makes me wonder if the certain uncle-niece marriage on the Stark family tree was a mistake that is going to be corrected, or if the Faith is more strict about such things than the First Men tradition. Or if it is a grey zone like marriages within various degrees co-sanguinty in Western Europe iRL, for which exemptions were granted (and sometimes revoked after the fact!) by the Catholic Church, and the High Septon just chose to play up his indignation in order to seize an advantage for his family.

Also, it would have taken 14 or so years for Maegor to produce a child with Rhaena in the best case, while Aenys and Alyssa would have had all the time in the world to make sons. Not entirely sure what Visenya's angle was here. It could have unified the bloodlines, sure, but wouldn't have actually improved Maegor's chances at the throne as far as I can see.

[Good King Daemon]

On Visenya and Aenys, after Rhaenys' death surely the three year old Aenys would have been given over to the care of his step-mother/aunt Visenya (especially in the early years when he wasn't going on the royal progresses with Aegon). There may also have been a strong relationship between the two that just really deteriorated over time, especially with Maegor always getting put down and strife between them and Alyssa. She never objected to the fact that Aenys would become King after Aegon even if Maegor's descent was from the more senior Targaryen line, and she stayed in westeros even after Maegor's departure and seems to have remained in Aeny's councils (telling him to make use of his dragons to end the revolt). If she did poison him (something I think is a big if) the destruction of the Targaryen dynasty must have seen eminent and Visenya after all she had done to found it would just not allow it.

Also thanks to all those reporting from the Con, this stuff is great.