Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Lady Gwynhyfvar

(Spoilers) Sons of the Dragon Reading at LonCon Today

Recommended Posts

GRRM wrote a ton of material for the World Book (due out Oct 28th). Too much in fact, they couldn't use it all. They didn't want to just throw it in the trash (that would be an epic tragedy!) of course, so they scheduled a 2nd history book for release after ASOIAF is completely finished. So FIre and Blood is a looong time from being published.

Thanks for the clarification. It's exciting that they'll be more to come after this one in the distant future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the clarification. It's exciting that they'll be more to come after this one in the distant future.

I recall that GRRM has recently stated during an interview that the plan is to release Fire and Blood 3 to 4 years after the release of A Dream of Spring (so 3 or 4 years after the main series has ended). Whether or not they can pull that timeframe off, I don't know..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Lord Varys and Arataniello

Maegor does share some parallels with Daemon Blackfyre:

Associated with a black dragon (Balerion for Maegor/Daemon's sigil)

Warrior prodigy who was knighted young by his royal father with Blackfyre for feats at tourney

Was given Blackfyre

Fought elder brother's family for IT

Mother was a kind of warrior woman

Elder royal brother was the scholarly/intellectual type

Maegor and his mother had the upper hand by virtue of having the two oldest and largest dragons in existence: Balerion and Vhagar. The oldest dragon Aenys's children had is Quicksilver, who was around thirty years-old, and they still had the right of inheritance.

Given that Alyssa and Jaehaerys and Alysanne were on Dragonstone, I would say that they were imprisoned there. Although, after Visenya's death, Alyssa managed to take Dark Sister with her when she fled, indicating that Visenya was there. Vhagar was out of the game given that Maegor didn't have any other dragonriders on his side, and Jaehaerys and Alysanne were already bonded to theirs.


By the by, does anyone else here think that the manner of Aegon's death was loosely inspired by Vito Corleone's death in The Godfather?

Well, Aegon did make kings and lords an offer they couldn't refuse in the Conquest.

It's really surprising that Aegon had such good relations with Dorne after Rhaenys' death.

Same here, especially if it is true that Rhaenys was tortured to death. I guess a Martell may have been killed as well, so they were even.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Lord Varys and Arataniello

Maegor does share some parallels with Daemon Blackfyre:

Associated with a black dragon (Balerion for Maegor/Daemon's sigil)

Warrior prodigy who were knighted young by his royal father with Blackfyre for feats at tourney

Was given Blackfyre

Fought elder brother's family for IT

Mother was a kind of warrior woman

Elder royal brother was the scholarly/intellectual type

You can add "married at a young age" to the list. Daemon would have been 13 or 14, going by the age difference between himself and his eldest known children, Maegor certainly was 13 when he got married.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for this amazing contribution, read it at one sitting. Very interesting and informative.



Makes me wonder is this the model of a happy polygamous family, fraternal harmony and dragon rule Rhaegar aspired to. I mean, for real? He could as well take a leaf out of Maegor's book for dealing with encumbering wives, it would cause less bloodshed.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Completed the report. Now you can really start discussing the whole thing!


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Vulture King's other armies were brought down by an alliance between the new Lord Dondarrion, Lady Caron, and Lord Samwell 'Savage Sam' Tarly, who fought with Heartsbane in hand. The Vulture King was captured in what became known as 'the Vulture Hunt'. Savage Sam caught him, and chained to rock to die there. Talk goes that vultures devoured him, but it seems that he died of thirst in truth.

It appears that Ridley Scott isn't the only one who is inspired by Prometheus :D

Also, I just got to say it... Savage Sam Tarly is a much better nickname than Sam the Slayer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Vulture King's other armies were brought down by an alliance between the new Lord Dondarrion, Lady Caron, and Lord Samwell 'Savage Sam' Tarly, who fought with Heartsbane in hand.

!!!!!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maegor's exile in Pentos pretty much seals that he took Tyanna as a 3rd wife. Even though Aenys' ilness sounds like caused by Tears of Lys, I think Visenya put a spell on him. He looked bad then fine then bad again and he was like in his 60s in his death while actually being 35. Not sure if poison works in that way.



(Maybe Visenya drained his life force and that was the reason he looked much older ala Melisandre succubus-ing Stannis)


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait, let's get the chronology straight here...

-2 AC - Aegon lands at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush and begins the War of Conquest

1 AC - Aegon completes his conquest and is anointed/accepted by the High Septon in Oldtown.

7 AC - Aenys is born, Aegon's first and ONLY child with Rhaenys (directly stated that Rhaenys had no daughters)

9 AC - Quentyn Qoherys dies. He was Aegon's castellan at Dragonstone and made the new Lord of Harrenhal after Aegon destroyed House Hoare.

10 AC - Rhaenys and Meraxes are killed in a campaign against Dorne. Meraxes took a crossbow bolt to the eye. Orys Baratheon was captured and later returned but the Dornish maimed him by cutting off his sword hand. Soon afterwards, Aenys bonds with the dragon Quicksilver and grows somewhat more confident and stable in health.

11 AC - Maegor is born, whom we know was Aegon's only child with Visenya. That same year, the High Septon who anointed Aegon dies. Six more High Septons followed before Aegon's death. He tread lightly around them. They never approved of Targaryen incest and polygamy, but did not openly preach against the Targaryens so long as Aegon treated them well (the common septons continued to preach against incest).

~11 AC-35 AC - While Aegon did intend to build a new capital city at the location of his initial landing at the mouth of the Blackwater (King's Landing), for most of his reign he maintained an itinerant court, traveling about the Seven Kingdoms to enforce his reign. He usually kept Aenys with him, while Maegor remained on Dragonstone with Visenya - and thus became known as "the Prince on Dragonstone". This is the origin of the formal title "Prince of Dragonstone", used for the designated heir to the Iron Throne, given that for many years Maegor was Aenys's heir. Aegon had three known Hands of the King during his reign: Orys Baratheon, Osmund Strong, and Alyn Stokeworth (which would seem to imply that the Strongs were a notable family since at least this date, though they didn't come to rule Harrenhal for many generations - a small retcon it would seem is that the new order of who held Harrenhal was: Qoherys, Harroway, Towers, Strong, Lothston, Whent).

22 AC - Aenys marries Alyssa Velaryon, daughter of the Master of Ships, and a cousin of the main Targaryen line. This was a political move to assure the Faith that the Targaryens wouldn't continue heavily incestuous marriages. But also because Aegon simply had no daughters so there were none to marry.

23 AC - Aenys and Alyssa's first child is born, daughter Rhaena. This pushed Maegor down in the line of succession, because he didn't even have any children. Visenya began to nag Aegon that it would be a good idea to wed the 13 year old Maegor to his infant half-niece Rhaena. The High Septon at the time rejected this as an abomination and suggested his own niece, Ceryse Hightower. Not clear if Aegon opposed a Maegor-Rhaena marriage because Visenya blatantly wanted to advance Maegor, or simply for the pragmatic reason that it would infuriate the High Septon and he wanted to keep good political relations with the Faith.

25 AC - Maegor marries his first wife, Ceryse Hightower (neice of the High Septon). He was 13 and she was 23.

26 AC - Aenys's second child and eldest son, Aegon, is born.

28 AC - After a tournament at Riverrun, Maegor is knighted at age 16, the youngest man ever knighted. He was knighted by his father, using Blackfyre. He assists Alyssa's father Aethon Velaryon with a campaign against a pirate-lord in the Stepstones, Salassor Saan There had been "half a dozen dragon hatchlings" on Dragonstone since the Conquest (including Quicksilver), but Maegor did not claim a dragon, saying none were worthy. Alyssa mocked that he was scared, deepening the rift between them. In hindsight, Maegor was probably holding out for his father's eventual death so he could claim Balerion.

29 AC- Aenys's third child Viserys is born.

34 AC - Aenys's fourth child Jaehaerys is born.

35 AC - Aegon I decides that Aegonfort will be razed and they'll start over from scratch to build a larger, permanent capital city, King's Landing. Aegon I removes to Dragonstone. He sends Visenya to oversee construction at King's Landing (possibly because after all of her pushing for Maegor, he can't stand her company anymore?). He orders his Hand of the King, Alyn Stokeworth, to assist her in the construction. Unknown why Orys Baratheon was no longer Hand - either he was still imprisoned on Dorne, or more probably, he may have retired after he was sent back because he Dornish cut off his sword-hand during his imprisonment.

36 AC - Aenys's fifth child Alysanne is born.

37 AC - Aegon I dies at Dragonstone. He was in the Chamber of the Painted Table, pointing to the map and telling his two grandsons Aegon and Viserys stories about his conquest. While playing with his grandsons he stuck an orange peel in his mouth and chased them around the Painted Table, pretending to be a monster for their amusement, but then he had a stroke and died. Aenys succeeds him as king. Aenys had been on procession in Highgarden at the time but flew back to Dragonstone; Grand Maester Gawen proclaimed him king. Maegor gives Aegon's eulogy, and Visenya uses Vhagar to light his funeral pyre. Maegor claims the now riderless Balerion. Maegor also claims Blackfyre from the ashes of Aegon's funeral pyre. He apparently presented it to Aenys, but he gave it back to Maegor, acknowledging that he was always much more of a warrior than he ever was (which, unfortunately, made many see Maegor as more worthy of the throne). Aenys makes a procession to proto-King's Landing (where the Iron Throne was) then to Highgarden and Oldtown, to be crowned by the High Septon.

~37 AC - Four major revolts break out upon Aegon I's death by opportunistic local rulers. Harren the Red takes over Harrenhal, Fake-Lodos rises in the Iron Islands, Ronnel Arryn's younger brother Jonos imprisons and kills him in the Vale, and the first Vulture King rises in the Red Mountains.

  • While Harren the Red was first, due to Aenys's indecision he was the last they dealt with. Quentyn's grandson Gargon Qoherys was lord of Harrenhal at the time, a cruel lecherous man who frequently practiced First Night - he was sarcastically called "Gargon the Guest" due to how many times he chose to make himself an unwanted "guest" at weddings of the smallfolk. One of the brides he took got revenge on Gargon by opening he gates to Harren the Red, an adventurer-bandit claiming to be a grandson of Harren the Black. Harren the Red took the castle, castrated Gargon, and fed his genitals to dogs. Harren the Red then massacred everyone in Harrenhal, extinguishing House Qoherys (House Harroway later replaced them as the lords of Harrenhal). Harren the Red didn't stay to try to hold the castle, but fled into the surrounding woods. Lord Tully urged Aenys to attack, but he was indecisive. Harren the Red was finally killed much later, last of the four false kings, by Bernard Brune.
  • A man claiming to be the priest-king Lodos rose in he Iron Islands, allegedly having returned from visiting his father the Drowned God in his watery halls. Aenys didn't need to take care of the problem himself: Vickon Greyjoy's son Goren Greyjoy put down the rebellion, and sent Fake-Lodos's pickled head in a jar to Aenys as a gift. How Aenys *did* mishandle this is that in return, Aenys promised any gift it was wihin his power to give - so Goren asked to expel all septons and septs from the Iron Islands, and Aenys reluctantly agreed. There wouldn't be a single sept in the isles for another 100 years -- not clear if the Faith of the Seven was even that numerous on the Iron Islands, but at the least, on general principle this soured relations with the Faith and the High Septon, and relations were already strained.
  • The first Vulture King rose in the Dornish Marches, angered by previous Targaryen campaigns in he region (this was he frontline of conflicts with Dorne, but the Dornish Marches were allegedly on the Targaryen side of he border now). The Princess of Dorne ("Deriah"?) did not openly support the Vulture King but it is generally thought that she secretly sent some financial support. Lowlife sellswords, cuthroughts, and adventurers flocked to his banner, and his army swelled to over 30,000 men. They took Blackhaven castle, killed all inhabitants, and cut off the nose of Harmon Dondarrion. They then moved west to attack the Reach - their cuthroat army of rogues was so filthy that they could be smelled before they were seen, it is said. But then the Vulture King grew overconfident and split his army into two equal halves, a disastrous decision which allowed them both to be defeated in turn. Orys Baratheon defeated one half but died of his wounds on the march back. His son Davos notes that he seemed content, because he had avenged himself on Walter Wyl, son of the Dornish lord who had cut off his hand when he was captured years before - by cutting off Wyl's hand, then his other hand and feet. The other half of the Vulture King's armies were defeated by an alliance between the new Lord Dondarrion (apparently Harmon was mutilated *and* killed), Lady Caron, and Lord Samwell Tarly, known as "Savage Sam". Tarly led the "Vulture Hunt" as it was called, defeated the army, and took the Vulture King prisoner. He left him tied to a rock in the mountains, where it is said that he was torn apart by vultures as he wasted away (though maesters insist that a man will die of thirst after only a few days so there wasn't enough time for that). Many other "Vulture Kings" would rise up over the years in the Red Mountains, bandit-lords taking their name from the original, some more successful than others. The last major one was during the reign of Daeron II the Good, and thus he is the one that characters during the War of the Five Kings refer to as "The" Vulture King.
  • Jonos Arryn declares himself King of the Vale and imprisons his older brother Ronnel in the Eyrie. Aenys sends armies marching to the Vale...but then hesitates and is very indecisive. Before the army actually reaches the Vale (or the Eyrie itself), he orders the army to turn around and head to Harrenhal to deal with Harren the Red....long after it would have done much good at Harrenhal anyway. On its own initiative House Royce besieges Jonos in the Eyrie, who in response throws Ronnel out the Moon Door. Maegor then arrives on Balerion. Jonos's followers abandoned him in fear of the dragon, take him prisoner and hand him over to Maegor in the hope that he will spare their lives in return. Maegor throws Jonos out the Moon Doore, but shows no mercy, hanging Jonos's followers anyway. Their cousin Hubert Arryn becomes the new lord of the Vale, along with his Royce wife (perhaps explaining why the Royces opposed Jonos in the first place, though they couldn't have anticipated that he would kill his own brother). Hubert and his Royce wife go on to have six children. Maegor is hailed as a hero, and made Aenys's new Hand of the King. Soon afterwards, two new dragons are hatched on Dragonstone (possibly Vermithor and Silverwing), which many hope is a sign for the two brothers.

39 AC - Aenys's sixth and final child is born, Princess Vaella, though she dies in the cradle. Even so, this further demonstration of Aenys and Alyssa's fertility makes something snap in Maegor, who has never been able to conceive a child. He marries Alys Harroway, embracing the polygamous marriage practices that the Targaryens weren't supposed to keep doing. The Faith of the Seven is in an uproar. Even Aenys realized how politically dangerous this was and told Maegor to either set aside Alys or go to exile in Pentos for five years - he chose exile and left with Balerion. To appease the High Septon, Aenys names Septon Murmison as Hand of the King...who turns out to be an abysmal failure.

41-42 AC - Aenys announces the marriage between Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena. It isn't clear why he made such a political disastrous decision. Many think that overseeing construction of the Red Keep made him increasingly proud of his heritage, and thinking of the thousand-year legacy that the Targaryen dynasty would establish, he got a bit arrogant about the whole "keep the bloodline pure" thing. Others point out that another factor is that he was genuinely out of touch by this point: the personally charismatic young prince had grown into and out-of-touch and very unpopular king. Many lost respect for him after how poorly he responded to those localized rebellions at the start of his reign. The Faith goes ballistic, because they thought the Targaryens would stop having such incestuous marriages (they avoided discussing it, but it was sort of an unstated assumption that they wouldn't antagonize the Faith like this). This announcement is what directly sparked the Faith Militant uprising. King's Landing was still under construction so it was easily overrun by the Faith Militant. The Warrior's Sons fortified the Sept of Remembrance on Rhaenys's Hill. Aenys and his family flee to Dragonstone. Foreign officials such as the Iron Bank of Braavos consider the High Septon in Oldtown to be the real ruler of Westeros. Aenys deteriorated from the stress, then became very sick in the bowels. The Grand Maester can't help him so Visenya intervenes. Some suspect she may have poisoned him because he died three days later (those who suspect this disagree on her motive; some that it was to advance Maegor, others suspect that she saw that Aenys had become so unfit to rule that she killed him for the good of the realm).

Then again, he might not have been poisoned, as he seemed to be recovering for a time (and because he had always had health problems). However, Aegon and Rhaena had been making a procession around the realm after their marriage and were caught in the Westerlands when the Faith Militant uprising hit. When Aenys heard that they were besieged in Crakehall Castle, he had a complete breakdown and soon died. Visenya rode to Pentos on Vhagar an hour after Aenys died, and returned with Maegor and Balerion.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why in seven hells did Aenys announce that he was marrying Aegon to Rhaena? The Faith was already deeply outraged by Maegor continuing the older Targaryen practice of polygamy. He KNEW, had to know, that he was skating on thin ice with the Faith at this point. Why would he risk angering them so much? What was gained from this?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM's history is too bloody, ugh

Perhaps you think Real History isn't?

I'd suggest starting with The Vikings and follow through to somewhere around the time of The Crusades. Don't go back to books you used at school. Those were sanitised. Walk into your local library, and begin there. If you can find where there's a reference library in your area, so much the better.

Most of Europe has a wealth of historical documents, many with very graphic accounts. GRRM is lightweight in comparison.

Something we can all agree upon is, within this wonderful world George's created, there's a vast amount of information still to see the light of day. In some interviews, he's more than hinted at this. What's forthcoming in the soon-to-be-released book will only be a scratch of what there is. If there's talk of another already going on, perhaps it can fall to other writers to take up telling the tale. Isn't that the way History works, and has worked for thousands upon thousands of years?

Basically, all you need are reference points, dates on a calendar, names and places and events. Further stories can evolve from those.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lord Varys has overtaken me in the updating of details of the complete reading. Rather than retype everything, I will just post anything additional or slightly different from my notes.



- It was said that the "rabble" that followed the Vulture King could be smelled from fifty leagues away;



- when he was dithering about how to deal with the four false kings, Aenys suggested summoning a Great Council;



- the Vulture King divided his force into TWO. One of the armies was the one defeated by Orys One Hand. The other one besieged Nightsong before being broken by Lord Tarly and Lady Caron. After "the Vulture Hunt" the VK was tied between two posts. Some say he was killed by the birds after which he was named, but they only got to work after he had died of thirst.



- Alys Harroway was the daughter of the new lord of Harrenhal when she married Maegor "not in a ceremony of the Faith, but with the Valyrian right of fire and blood";



- After Maegor's departure to Pentos with his wife, dragon and Blackfyre, Septon Murmison would lay his hands on Ceryse Hightower's belly every night, in an attempt to make her fertile again. "but he could no more make her fecund than he could heal the realm".



- there was a feast when Prince Aegon was pronounced as Prince of Dragonstone. When his new title was pronounced, Dowager Queen Visenya stalked out. It was said that as she left King's Landing for DS, the moon turned red as blood as she flew across it.



- I have it noted down that Raymond Baratheon of the KG save Queen Alyssa, rather than the entire royal family.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait, let's get the chronology straight here...

-

25 AC - Maegor marries his first wife, Cersei Hightower

We should also get the spelling straight.

Since all of those who have posted from the reading agree that the name of Maegor's first wife was Ceryse, it takes a particular kind of arrogance to unilaterally decide that we are all wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very cool we get more info on the Vulture King. =]



Anyone else find the wording "appeared" in the red mountains odd? You don't appear if you are from a known house....



I think we are going to find out he is not from any noble house in Dorne/ Stormlands but in fact is a Targ bastard?!?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't got time to read what the (very nice dudes) arisan and lord varys have written....

But regarding being soft, Aenys was frail since birth, as babies the two half bros very different. Aenys wouldn't suck wet nurses tits, very sickly, needed mother.... This was all part of the build up toward what eventually happened to him. He was smart and likeable but weak on several fronts. When bandits arose, aenys wanted to understand why they did it, rather than stop them with force. He was actually well liked as a person (but hated as a king).... Bohemian intellectual type.... But seemed to crumble under pressure towards the end. Aenys' softness was definitely targeted by the faith and others, they knew they could turn smallfolk against him and they could take him on without much bother. If aenys had used his dragon a bit more, I doubt faith would have grown teeth.

Regarding wiki and notes ... I can't do a write up until I get home for various reasons, but will be able to shade in gaps. Perhaps I will consult with rhaenys at some point, to make sure timeline is solid and all desired details have been addressed.

I see. The recurring trope between the intellectual/artistic legitimate heir and the warriorlike and imposing brother is getting overused I think. I hoped that Aenys was more Rhaegar-like but it seems that he wasn't firm and decisive in crucial moments.

Furthermore, we must reconsider calling Maegor the Cruel, "Usurper". It seems from what I read that Aenys lost all in all the control of the realm after the betrothal of his two eldest children and retreated to his base in Dragonstone. The situation was dire and Maegor was the one who sorted it out for the Targs, albeit very cruelly, when he returned from his exile. The Iron Bank was dealing with the High Septon, as "King of Westeros".

The last tidbit is very intriguing. It seems that Hightowers and High Septons were big players during Aegon's rule and I wonder how strong they were before that, when there were truly Seven Kingdoms ruled by Seven Kings. We don't see the HS or the Hightower opposing Aegon, just submitting to him after the Field of Fire. Nothing hinting about a religious war against Aegon before that....

Thank you again, Yolkboy, Lord Varys, Arataniello and Lady Gwynhyfvar for the notes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×