(Spoilers) Sons of the Dragon Reading at LonCon Today

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Again, thanks for the write-ups, guys. (Was the previous reading at Bubonicon 45 from aWoIaF or from FaB?)

So what happened to House Towers, who (according to the Heraldry section) ruled Harrenhal between House Qoherys and House Harroway? Qoherys was eliminated in 37, and Harroway held Harrenhal in 39. Doesn't leave much room for Towers. Have they been phased out?

Ceryse was 23 when she married Maegor in 25AC, so she was born in 2AC. I was going to suggest that Maegor gave up on her because she was post-menopausal, (and Septon Murmison was trying to reverse that), but 37 years old seems a bit young for that situation, doesn't it?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Aegon 1.5 was holed up at Crakehall Castle (Crakehall sigil - a brindled boar) when Maegor usurped the throne.

Chalk up one more instance of the association of Boars with Regime Change.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Aegon 1.5 was holed up at Crakehall Castle (Crakehall sigil - a brindled boar) when Maegor usurped the throne.

Chalk up one more instance of the association of Boars with Regime Change.

Which are the other ones?

[Queen Rhaenys Targaryen]

A big thank you to all the wonderful people who posted their great information.

Poor Aenys suffered through a lot. Maybe Aegons fertility problems were why he came out so weak I doubt he was a bastard based on him not being strong and like his father.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Which are the other ones?

Here's the link.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/95101-the-food-code-of-ice-and-fire/#entry4847462

[lojzelote]

What I don't get is why an infertile Aegon would invade Westeros in the first place? If he truly has been trying to have heirs with his wives for years and years before the Conquest, but was entirely unsuccessful in this regard, wouldn't that be a kind of a clue that something must be wrong with him or his sisters? To me it seems like an incredibly poor start of a new dynasty, and nonsensical.

If that was true, then he must have convinced himself that Aenys was truly his because I just can't see him recognizing a mummer's son as his heir. I mean, if he and Rhaenys got desperate enough to search for a sperm donnor, given their family's history, I'd expect them to secretly turn to their Velaryon relatives, not Rhaenys flaunting her favorites in front of everybody and beggeting a child by a random common-born niemand. Visenya's solution seems to be even more dubious since it probably only led to infertile offspring for whom not even the magic with the help of which they'd been conceived works.

Or perhaps Aenys is meant to be the Sweetrobin of the Targaryens? Father with poor quality of sperm/low sperm count/whatever and mother with reproductory organs damaged by contraceptives (since she had gotten rid of her lovers' children) gave life to a weak sickly crybaby?

Anyway, I remember how after some previous reading someone who had been at the reading said that Aenys' marriage to Alyssa Velaryon was "political" and people were wondering why it was needed since the Targaryens and the Velaryons were pretty much on the same boat... so the faction the Targs tried to get on their good side was the Faith, not the Velaryons. Not like Alyssa wasn't the closest female relative Aenys had, with the exception of his double auntie Visenya, lol.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Here's the link.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/95101-the-food-code-of-ice-and-fire/#entry4847462

Thanks! :Thumbsup:

[ARYa_Nym]

I still think it's possible that Visenya wanted Maegor to be king and killing Aenys had something to do with it. It's natural for a mother to wish her son to excel over one that isn't hers although most wouldn't resort to murder.

But we're told that Visenya had a dark and unforgiving side. Dark to me indicates that she is capable of doing bad things and being ruthless. Unforgiving could have something to do with the rift between her and Aegon.

She didn't get to be the main ruler by virtue of being a woman even though she was older than her brother and ruled. Then when she was supposed to be the sole wife he marries her sister, spends more time with her, and gets an heir on her and it's that son that will be king and not hers. Even worse that boy has more heirs that goes ahead of her son. That allows for some bitterness which ties into her being unforgiving imo.

ETA: In addition on her being dark nothing else really shows how she is dark to me.

[Anath]

I still think it's possible that Visenya wanted Maegor to be king and killing Aenys had something to do with it. It's natural for a mother to wish her son to excel over one that isn't hers although most wouldn't resort to murder.

But we're told that Visenya had a dark and unforgiving side. Dark to me indicates that she is capable of doing bad things and being ruthless. Unforgiving could have something to do with the rift between her and Aegon.

She didn't get to be the main ruler by virtue of being a woman even though she was older than her brother and ruled. Then when she was supposed to be the sole wife he marries her sister, spends more time with her, and gets an heir on her and it's that son that will be king and not hers. Even worse that boy has more heirs that goes ahead of her son. That allows for some bitterness which ties into her being unforgiving imo.

ETA: In addition on her being dark nothing else really shows how she is dark to me.

Don't forget that after Rhaenys' death, Aegon totally rejected both her and Maegor, sending them to Dragonstone. I suppose he summoned them at court only for ceremonies or when he needed Visenya to rule instead of him. So she didn't get recognition even after Rhaenys' death.

[Lord Varys]

Well, I don't want to have any children, but this does not mean that I'd not try to conquer the world if I had dragons. And if I can't father any children, I could adopt the children of my sister-wives to continue thr dynasty. End of story.

As to fathering children: If Aegon did not want to conceive with Visenya, he could have always visited her when she was not fertile, and/or brought a cup of moon tea with him when he visited her bed. The older Visenya got, the less likely it became that she would conceive a child.

I don't know when Aegon married his sisters, but it was definitely before the Conquest, and it seems that he took both of them to wife in the same ceremony. What's said is that Aegon was expected to marry only his elder sister, but chose to marry them both. Since that was unusual, I'd not be surprised if it only occured after Aerion's death.

On Aenys:

Well, I think during the time of the founding of the dynasty and the consolidation of the conquest, every successor of Aegon would have been challenged by various would-be kings and ambitious lords, and I'm not really sure if Visenya's approach was very wise, either. The problem was that Aenys was weak in the sense that he was not a warrior, and back in those days this was even more important than in the days of Daeron II. With the government structure not yet established in the way it was later, the king had to be seen as the guy who took charge - a very powerful Hand does not seem to have been an option at this point.

In essence, Aenys and Maegor embody the two sides of Aegon the Conqueror. Aenys has his father's charms, intelligence, and charisma, and Maegor the strength at arms and the determination. Aenys lacks his father's strong will, Maegor the charisma.

It's nowhere stated that Aegon rejected Maegor, only that Maegor resided on Dragonstone with his mother. Visenya eventually wanted Maegor to become king, but she was the one who gave birth to the younger son. If she wanted a son all that desperately, she should have tried magic much more earlier. Aegon is presented with a lot of potential new wives after Rhaenys' death. That he did not choose a replacement for her strongly suggests that he and Visenya reached an understanding at that point. They would have both feared that Aenys would not live to be a man grown, and that could have caused major trouble for aging Aegon and Visenya. Thus Maegor must have been a child both Aegon and Visenya desperately wanted.

As to the fate of Alyssa's children: My guess is that the bloodbath only began after Visenya's death. She may have killed Aenys, but I doubt that she wanted to kill his children, too. It seems that Prince Aegon eventually challenged Maegor, and died in battle.

[ARYa_Nym]

Don't forget that after Rhaenys' death, Aegon totally rejected both her and Maegor, sending them to Dragonstone. I suppose he summoned them at court only for ceremonies or when he needed Visenya to rule instead of him. So she didn't get recognition even after Rhaenys' death.

Yeah, I feel bad for her.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Don't forget that after Rhaenys' death, Aegon totally rejected both her and Maegor, sending them to Dragonstone. I suppose he summoned them at court only for ceremonies or when he needed Visenya to rule instead of him. So she didn't get recognition even after Rhaenys' death.

Well, he didn't reject them both. Maegor was born after Rhaenys' death, after all. So the rejecting only happened later, not immediately.

[Anath]

Well, he didn't reject them both. Maegor was born after Rhaenys' death, after all. So the rejecting only happened later, not immediately.

Yes, of course. With a sickly heir, he needed another one. When Visenya gave him this, he packed them off. It wasn't as if he cared about them, they were only further insurance and you can bet that Visenya knew it.

With this lovely example of a happy polygamous family (and one that, by default, would have the best chance to be a successful one since the wives were sisters), I am not surprised polygamy fell out of favour almost immediately. Even Maegor seemed to practice it only because he was desperate for heirs.

[RumHam]

So what happened to House Towers, who (according to the Heraldry section) ruled Harrenhal between House Qoherys and House Harroway? Qoherys was eliminated in 37, and Harroway held Harrenhal in 39. Doesn't leave much room for Towers. Have they been phased out?

More likely he just changed the (only semi-canon) order to put Towers after Harroway.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Aenys and Maegor kept a close relationship, with the latter serving as his Hand until Queen Alyssa gave birth to another girl, Princess Vaella, who died shortly after her birth, in 39. This additional proof of Aenys/Alyssa's fertility apparently shattered something in Maegor. He decided that his wife Ceryse must be barren, and marries Alys Harroway, the daughter of the new Lord of Harrenhal, on Dragonstone. No septon agree to officiate the ceremony, which is why Visenya did it in the old Valyrian fashion [i guess this was also the way how Aegon I married both his sisters back before the Conquest] without King Aenys' leave.

The bolded part seems fairly significant, if you apply it to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Many have speculated that Rhaegar and Lyanna were indeed married (Rhaegar deciding to enter a polygamous marriage), thereby making Jon legitimate. Now we see there is precedent for all septons refusing to officiate at such a ceremony. Could that have happened again in Rhaegar's time? Who could have officiated at a Valyrian ceremony? Rhaella?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The bolded part seems fairly significant, if you apply it to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Many have speculated that Rhaegar and Lyanna were indeed married (Rhaegar deciding to enter a polygamous marriage), thereby making Jon legitimate. Now we see there is precedent for all septons refusing to officiate at such a ceremony. Could that have happened again in Rhaegar's time? Who could have officiated at a Valyrian ceremony? Rhaella?

A solution for Rhaegar would be a wedding in front of a heart tree. No septons or such needed

[Ibbison from Ibben]

A solution for Rhaegar would be a wedding in front of a heart tree. No septons or such needed

Do the Old Gods accept polygamy? We've never heard of polygamy being practiced in the North. (Except for Craster, but his gods are the Cold Gods, not the Old Gods.)

ETA - If you're right on this, the fact that Dayne and Whent accompanied Rhaegar, and presumably acted as witnesses, could be significant, because Whent could get them access to the Harrenhal godswood.

[Mithras]

Samwell "Savage Sam" Tarly. Really?

[LordBloodraven]

Samwell "Savage Sam" Tarly. Really?

Yep, just show how much Samwell "Fat Pink Mast" Tarly is a failure, from Randyll's twisted perspective.

[DanaKz]

I still think it's possible that Visenya wanted Maegor to be king and killing Aenys had something to do with it. It's natural for a mother to wish her son to excel over one that isn't hers although most wouldn't resort to murder.

But we're told that Visenya had a dark and unforgiving side. Dark to me indicates that she is capable of doing bad things and being ruthless. Unforgiving could have something to do with the rift between her and Aegon.

She didn't get to be the main ruler by virtue of being a woman even though she was older than her brother and ruled. Then when she was supposed to be the sole wife he marries her sister, spends more time with her, and gets an heir on her and it's that son that will be king and not hers. Even worse that boy has more heirs that goes ahead of her son. That allows for some bitterness which ties into her being unforgiving imo.

ETA: In addition on her being dark nothing else really shows how she is dark to me.

All of this just screams "Stannis!"

I totally see Visenya as Stannis in skirt.

Visenya. bitter and unforgiving. Visenya, brooding on Dragonstone, nursing her grievances. Visenya, always overlooked, always second best. She resented that Aegon always prefered younger sister to her. She tried to do her best for country and family, but never had a love and recognition from others - her siblings were loved, and she was "a dark one" in family.