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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v.97

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Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.


Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)
"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

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First! :D



To adress the topic from the end of the previous thread some more: while Arthur Dayne certainly has some darker spots on his shining armour, there are no textual hints towards him and Lyanna being an item. No symbolism, no nothing. Whereas for Rhaegar, aplenty.

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Maybe Rhaegar's last words were supposed to be "Lyanna... loved Arthur, you asshole!" :dunno:


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First! :D

To adress the topic from the end of the previous thread some more: while Arthur Dayne certainly has some darker spots on his shining armour, there are no textual hints towards him and Lyanna being an item. No symbolism, no nothing. Whereas for Rhaegar, aplenty.

Arthur and Lyanna as an item completely ignores such things as the blue rose, Ned's secrets, Jon as a hidden prince...and I could go on and on

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Maybe Rhaegar's last words were supposed to be "Lyanna... loved Arthur, you asshole!" :dunno:

:lmao:

Arthur and Lyanna as an item completely ignores such things as the blue rose, Ned's secrets, Jon as a hidden prince...and I could go on and on

And on and on and on. It simply doesn't hold water.

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Tbh, while there is a small chance Arthur could have loved Lyanna, that chance is very very very very very very very very very small. So, no chance.



I would've have liked to know that Arthur had a lady, though.


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Tbh, while there is a small chance Arthur could have loved Lyanna, that chance is very very very very very very very very very small. So, no chance.

I would've have liked to know that Arthur had a lady, though.

Well, there is a chance that the "certain name" which Elia reportedly screamed when they came for her was "Arthur"...

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Well, there is a chance that the "certain name" which Elia reportedly screamed when they came for her was "Arthur"...

"Arthur, why didn't you drag Rhaegar back to KL? Aaargh!!!"

A bit more on topic:

With the info from LonCon, I'm wondering whether Rhaegar thought that his polygamous marriage would actually have a chance of succeeding. Rhaenys and Visenya were sisters, and look at that marriage..

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"Arthur, why didn't you drag Rhaegar back to KL? Aaargh!!!"

A bit more on topic:

With the info from LonCon, I'm wondering whether Rhaegar thought that his polygamous marriage would actually have a chance of succeeding. Rhaenys and Visenya were sisters, and look at that marriage..

I'm so behind on all the LonCon information! ARG. Anyone have a quick and dirty synopsis so I don't have to wade through pages of threads? If not, that's cool. I'll just sit here and suffer (and read what other people say)

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I'm so behind on all the LonCon information! ARG. Anyone have a quick and dirty synopsis so I don't have to wade through pages of threads? If not, that's cool. I'll just sit here and suffer (and read what other people say)

The stuff I'm referring to, is that Aegon and Visenya didn't exactly have a good relationship. Not only was Maegor only conceived after Rhaenys had died, but at a certain point, Aegon send Visenya with young Maegor to Dragonstone, because he couldn't stand her presence anymore, and remained at KL himself with Aenys.

Combined with the fact that it is a possibility that Visenya was the one who eventually killed Aenys, and the fact that Aenys and Maegor didn't really get along (though Aenys did try to include Maegor in his rule in 37AC) that doesn't sound like Visenya was happy with the marriage.

And these are two sisters. Elia and Lyanna don't have any bloodties whatsoever, so I wonder.. Rhaegar would have known the troubles that Visenya/Aegon/Rhaenys had caused/faced. How did he expect that his own polygamous marriage would work out?

One big summarize from the reading in the spoiler tag (for length). The summary is from Lord Varys. Everything in [ ] is speculation on his part. But reading these notes from the reading should bring you up to speed :)

The spelling is confirmed unless indicated otherwise.

Aegon I did indeed have only two children, Aenys (born in 7 AC) by Rhaenys, and Maegor (born in 12 AC) by Visenya.

[i might be partially responsible for the confusion of Aegon's alleged daughters, since I found - and still find - it somewhat strange that Aegon should only have two children by his two sister-wives despite the fact that he was already married to them prior to the Conquest. Back when GRRM read 'The Sons of the Dragon' for the first time, I asked the attendants of the Con very specific - and perhaps suggestive - questions. This may have actually confused and obscured things...]

Aenys Targaryen was indeed a sickly and weak child, with spindly arms, watery eyes. He always wept, and refused to be fed by midwives which is why Rhaenys was forced to feed him almost exclusively herself [that could be an explanation why Aenys did not get a little sibling after his birth - women do not conceive while they are still breastfeeding].

Rhaenys dies when Aenys is three years old (i.e. in 10 AC). This event apparently shatters young Aenys - he cries all the time, and his father grows desperate. There are doubts whether the boy will live. Aegon is asked to take another wife, because Visenya is supposed to be barren. Apparently many young women are presented to the king, but Gyldayn doesn't really know what's happening there, since Aegon eventually refuses to remarry. In 11 AC, Visenya is pregnant, and announces that the child will be a very strong boy long before he is actually born. At his birth, Maegor weighs twice as much as Aenys - he is a big and healthy boy.

[speculation: We know that Visenya was supposed to be into magic and the black arts - my guess is that she was indeed barren - or had very serious troubles to conceive (especially since she was about 40/41 in 11 AC) - and used a spell to ensure that she did conceive a male child. She would have done this, at this point, most likely to give Aegon another son to ensure the survival of the dynasty - not because she was overall ambitious. Visenya does not strike me as a woman who was all that keen to be a mother.]

Aenys seems to bond with his dragon, Quicksilver, shortly after the death of his mother (i.e. while he was 3/4). After that, his condition improved, 'and as the dragon grew, so did Aenys'. Due to the fact that Aenys was such a weak and sickly child, rumors circulated that this boy could not have been fathered by Aegon the Conqueror - who was a very manly warrior - but rather by one of the many singers, dancers, and mummers who surrounded Queen Rhaenys before her untimely death. Those rumors died when Aenys bonded with Quicksilver. [History repeats itself - when Rhaenyra's three elder son all bond with their hatchlings, this is taken as a sign that they are legitimate. Nobody seems to utter aloud that this may just work because they have Targaryen blood through their mother - as would Aenys through Rhaenys. The thought that all the Targaryens do not, in fact, descend from Aegon the Conqueror would be quite funny...]

The brothers were not close as children. [i imagine the age gap would have ensured as much, even if the other factors hadn't been there.] Aenys was raised by Aegon I, and trained by the knights of the Kingsguard. As Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne, he accompanied his father always on his royal progresses, resided with him in KL when the king was there. [it seems that the early Targaryen kings were essentially traveling kings, keeping the vast Realm together the same the early kings/emperors of th Holy Roman Empire did - on horse back! This would have changed only, I think, during the reign of Jaehaerys I.]

Aenys loved songs, was a fine singer himself, was clever - although not in a scholarly way - and liked to ride. His favorite mount was, of course, his dragon, Quicksilver. Aenys was no great warrior/knight, but did also not disgrace himself in tourneys. [i guess he would have been somewhat better than Prince Valarr in THK, but not all that much.] He was also interested in alchemy, and other obscure things. Aenys could also make friends very easily, and was very popular with the women.

Aegon occasionally gave Blackfyre to Aenys to train with the sword.

Maegor, on the other hand, resided with Visenya mostly on Dragonstone, and thus became in time known as 'the Prince on Dragonstone'. [it's obvious that the title 'Prince of Dragonstone' derives from this fact, and was originally not the title of the Heir Apparent. We'll later learn how and when that changed.] He was trained by the master-of-arms of Dragonstone, a knight of House Corbray [Didn't catch the first name, perhaps somebody else got it.]. Maegor had no true friends, and sadistic tendencies (he supposedly killed a cat in a Joffrey-like fashion, and finished off a horse who kicked him). In 25 AC - when he was 13 - Visenya gave Dark Sister to him [For reasons I can't discuss here, this is strange, but I guess Maegor returned the sword to his mother after Aenys gave him Blackfyre.] Maegor's skills with weapons were unmatched.

Incest was never tolerated by the Faith of the Seven. The Valyrians practiced incest. The dragonlords led the way, but the custom was not restricted to them. Sister to brother was supposed to be ideal, failing that uncle, aunts, nieces, nephews or cousins were chosen. Sorcerer princes also practiced polygamy, but that was not as common as incest. [That could mean/indicate that Aenar Targaryen was a sorcerer as well as a dragonlord.] There was a saying that in Valyria all gods were honored, but none feared - perhaps indicating that the Valyrians practiced religious tolerance and/or didn't give a fig about religions at all.

The High Septon who anointed Aegon died in 11. Six HS followed until Aegon's death. Aegon was always careful to keep up glood relations with them, but they did neve declare his polygamous and incestuous marriages lawful - nor did they openly speak up against them. The common septons still preached to the lords and smallfolk that incest was a vile sin. Due to the fact that Aegon had no daughters the incest issue did not come up when Aenys was married. In 22 AC, Aenys Targaryen was married to a cousin, Alyssa Velaryon, the fifteen-year-old (meaning she was born in 7 AC, too) daughter of Aethon (sp.) Velaryon, Aegon's Master of Ships. [i'm pretty sure that Aethon was the son of Daemon Velaryon, the Master of Ships who died during the Conquest. Aethon would be of the same generation as Aegon, whereas Daemon would be closer in age to Aegon's father Aerion.] This marriage raised no objections, since husband and wife were only cousins, not siblings. Unfortunately we don't know if they were first or second cousins, but my guess is the latter (i.e. I expect that Daemon Velaryon had a Targaryen wife). Alyssa had the silver-gold hair of the Valyrians, nothing on her eye color, though.

In 23 AC Aenys first child is born, his daughter Rhaena. This birth caused trouble for the succession since it put Maegor behind Rhaena in the line of succession. Visenya tried to resolve this by marrying Maegor to infant Rhaena to ensure that Maegor would be in charge of the continuation of the Targaryen line. [My guess would be that Visenya intended to counter the claim a son of Aenys would have - even if Alyssa would give birth to a son - with the argument that Maegor/rhaena should succeed because Rhaena was the eldest child of Aenys, and Maegor her son by Aegon I.] The High Septon rejected this match as an abomination and suggested his own niece, Ceryse Hightower, instead. [We don't know whether the HS was a Hightower by birth or the brother of Ceryse's mother.]

Maegor and Ceryse marry in 25 AC - Maegor is 13, Ceryse ten years older. Maegor boasts that he has taken Ceryse multiple times in the wedding night, and that 'he has made a son for House Targaryen'. That son is born in 26 AC - by Alyssa, named Aegon. In 29 follows Viserys, in 34 Jaehaerys, in 36 Alysanne. Maegor is now clearly behind Aenys' three sons in the line of succession, 'and some say behind the daughters as well'. [That would be the Andal custom - a daughter comes before an uncle.]

Maegor distinguishes himself at a tourney in Riverrun in 28. He is knighted by his father with Blackfyre. Youngest knight ever - age 16. Maegor also assists Aethon during a campaign on the Stepstones (pirates).

By this time half a dozen hatchlings had hatched on Dragonstone, but Maegor refuses to claim any of those dragons. [This strongly indicates that the dragons still procreated naturally, i.e. no eggs were given to the Targaryen children.] Alyssa mocked Maegor because of his apparent cowardice. Maegor declares that only one dragon is worthy of him.

Aegon kept up good relations with Princess Deria of Dorne, and visited Sunspear on Balerion with Aenys/Quicksilver. In the 30s Aenys and his children began to make the royal progresses in Aegon's stead. In 35 AC, Aegon moved the court to Dragonstone, to build the Red Keep. He commanded Visenya to oversee the construction because, according to Gyldayn, he could not abide her presence anymore.

The three known Hands of Aegon I are Orys 'One-Hand' Baratheon, Osmund Strong, and Alyn Stokeworth - the latter is also involved in the buildinig of the Red Keep. We don't know if there was another Hand between Orys and Osmund. In 37 AC Aegon I suffered a stroke and died - he was just telling his grandchildren Aegon and Viserys stories about the Conquest. Maegor spoke the eulogy, and Vhagar incinerated the pyre. Aenys was on a progress at Highgarden at this time, but returned quickly on dragonback to Dragonstone. Grand Maester Gawen proclaimed him king. Maeglor reclaimed Blackfyre from the flames, and Aenys gave the sword to his brother as agift, and proclaimed they would rule together.

Aenys starts a progress, first to the Iron Throne in KL - apparently the thing could not be moved when Aegon decided to build the Red Keep. He is cheered and loved by the smallfolk, and continues the progress to Highgarden and Oldtown. The High Septon anoints him, proclaims him the King of Westeros, and crowns him with the new and elaborate golden crown that was made for him.

But there are whispers that Aenys is not fit to rule. Rumor has it, that Queen Dowager Visenya wants Maegor to be king. Another version of the common 'Blackfyre tale' goes around. Didn't Aenys himself prove that he was not up for the kingship when he gave Blackfyre to Maegor?

Another problem is that there are still many lords, knights, and people who are not exactly happy with this new Targaryen rule. They want either back to the old days, or have grievances against the Targaryens or their allies. The fact that Aenys is considered to be weak greatly encourages those tendencies.

Aenys himself was not involved in the crushing of any of the four rebellions listed below. In fact, when he involved himself, he either was no help at all, or made matters much worse. His problems was that he could not make a firm decision when pushed, especially not since he did not understand why people were rebelling against him. At one point he intended to sent envoys to find out why the rebels were rebelling against him...

Various Lords acted on their own or on Visenya's advice to deal with the rebels.

Four would-be rebel kings come forth:

1. Harren the Red, a self-proclaimed grandson of Harren the Black - of dubious heritage, since he only proclaims himself King of the Rivers because he not Ironborn.

Harren takes Harrenhal through a postern gate, opened to him by a man whose daughter suffered from Gargon the Guest's habit to attend every wedding in his domains (to claim the right of the First Night). Gargon was the grandson of the founder of House Qoherys, the former master-at-arms on Dragonstone. Harren kills everyone in Harrenhal.

Aenys hears of this while he is still on his royal progress in the Riverlands, a guest of Lord Tully. Tully suggests that Aenys deal with the rebel the way Aegon dealt with Harren - descend on the castle on Quicksilver and torch it and all its inhabitants. Aenys is reluctant and instead sends Lord Tully with some men to deal with them. When they arrived at Harrenhal, Harren is already gone, and only corpses remain in the castle.

Eventually, Harren is brought down by the Hand of the King, Alyn Stokeworth, who is slain by Harren. Benard (sp.) Brune, Alyn's squire, avenges his master.

Harren the Red was the first and he was also put down as the last one.

2. The self-proclaimed priest-king Lodos, living son of the Drowned God, who has finally returned from a rather long talk with his father in the Watery Halls. Apparently this guy isn't the real deal - just as the real wasn't the real deal, either - and Goren Greyjoy, Vickon's son, deals with him. He sends his pickled head as a gift to Aenys, who, in turn, grants Goren the boon to expel all the septons and septas from the Iron Islands.

3. Jonos Arryn, the younger brother of Ronnel Arryn, took his brother and his family captive in the Eyrie. At first, Aenys intended to send Lord Alyn with a strong fleet to the Vale, but then he rescended that order and commanded him to hunt for the Vulture King with way too few men. In the Vale, Lord Royce took matters in his own hands, and started to besiege the Eyrie. But this only led to the execution of Lord Ronnel and his family via the moon door.

Maegor eventually saved the day on Balerion. Jonos is moondoored as well, the other traitorous rebels are all hanged.

Hubert Arryn, a cousin of Ronnel and Jonos, continues the Arryn line. He has six children by his Royce wife.

Aenys names Maegor Hand in reward for his actions in the Vale.

Shortly thereafter hatched two dragons on Dragonstone, which is considered a sign for the lasting union of the Sons of the Dragon. [Those dragons could be Vermithor and Silverwing, we are still in the year 37 AC.] Sadly, that's not going to be the case.

4. The final would-be king was the so-called Vulture King. His lair was in the border region of the Red Mountains, between th Dornish Marches and Dorne. According to Ran, there are Dornish Marches in the Reach as well as in the Stormlands. My careless line of him getting support from 'all over the place' was obviously supposed to mean that he got support from people in those regions, not from the Riverlands, the North, or the Vale. I really thought that would be obvious... A few early victories against the Marcher Lords led to a vast swelling of his ranks, at at one point he had about 30,000 men.

Princess Deria assured Aenys that she was not supporting/backing the Vulture King, but there was talk that she may have provided him with provisions and money.

The Vulture King successfully took and burned Blackhaven and killed Lord Harmen (sp.) Dondarrion. His downfall began when he split his army into three parts, thinking that they could still crush any foe. Orys Baratheon took care of one army, and successfully captured Walter Wyl in the process, whose father was apparently responsible for the loss of his hand [i imagine during the attempted Conquest of Dorne which also led to the death of Rhaenys Targaryen]. He cut him to pieces, and although he died on the march back of wounds from the battle, his son Davos, who was with him [we don't know if he was his eldest son, and the successor as Lord of Storm's End] when he died, said that he looked strangely content when he looked at Lord Walter's rotting feet and hands...

The Vulture King's other armies were brought down by an alliance between the new Lord Dondarrion, Lady Caron, and Lord Samwell 'Savage Sam' Tarly, who fought with Heartsbane in hand. The Vulture King was captured in what became known as 'the Vulture Hunt'. Savage Sam caught him, and chained to rock to die there. Talk goes that vultures devoured him, but it seems that he died of thirst in truth.

He was but the first of many Vulture Kings. The name was used by many outlaws/bandit chieftains in the region, and it's not known if they were related to each other. Another Vulture King must have wreaked havoc during the days of Daeron II, when Ser Arlan helped bring him down in the service of the father of Lord Manfred Dondarrion. [Ran actually told me that GRRM originally had the idea to have another Vulture King kill Maekar I, but that's obviously no longer the case.]

After that came a short section highlighting the differences between Aenys and Maegor:

- Maegor lived for war and battle, Aenys wanted to please, be considered a good and nice king

- Aenys trusted everyone, whereas Maegor trusted no one

Aenys was also very receptive to everyone's suggestions, so the decisions the king made depended often on his last visitor, which essentially made his politics looks very erratic. Although Maegor's reign was not covered by the reading, it's quite clear why now, I think, why Maegor was a much worse king than Aenys ever could be.

[in my personal opinion, Aenys could have been a average/decent king during a later era, when Westeros was already accustomed to the Targaryen rule, and not intent to challenge its monarch and/or considering and indecisive/not bloodthirsty king a weakling. Under other circumstances a king who carefully weighs any decision could have been a good thing.]

Aenys and Maegor kept a close relationship, with the latter serving as his Hand until Queen Alyssa gave birth to another girl, Princess Vaella, who died shortly after her birth, in 39. This additional proof of Aenys/Alyssa's fertility apparently shattered something in Maegor. He decided that his wife Ceryse must be barren, and marries Alys Harroway, the daughter of the new Lord of Harrenhal, on Dragonstone. No septon agree to officiate the ceremony, which is why Visenya did it in the old Valyrian fashion [i guess this was also the way how Aegon I married both his sisters back before the Conquest] without King Aenys' leave.

Both Aenys and Lord Hightower were not exactly happy with this situation. The High Septon demanded that Maegor leave 'the whore of Harroway' and return to his lawful wife. Aenys commanded Maegor to either set Alys aside in favor of his true wife, or to leave Westeros for five years exile in Pentos. Maegor chose the latter, and took Alys with him. When he left, Aenys demanded that Maegor return Blackfyre to him, but Maegor apparently responded that he would have to take the sword from him, if he wanted it. Ceryse remained behind. Aenys appointed the reputed miracle worker Septon Murmison in Maegor's stead as Hand of the King to appease the High Septon. Murmison failed to make Ceryse fertile, and she eventually rejoined her father in Oldtown.

More and more people began to dislike King Aenys.

In 41 AC Aenys announced the marriage between his daughter, Princess Rhaena (then 18), and his eldest son and heir, Prince Aegon (then 15). This caused a major uproar among the Faith. Visenya was also pissed, because Aenys named Aegon 'Prince of Dragonstone' in Maegor's stead [that would be the promised explanation as to how and why the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne is usually styled 'Prince of Dragonstone]. Visenya left the court in King's Landing and went to - Dragonstone.

After their marriage, Aegon and Rhaena began a progress throughout the Seven Kingdoms, but they soon faced troubles in the Westerlands. The High Septon expelled Septon Murmison from the Faith (he had officiated at Aegon and Rhaena's wedding), and proclaimed King Aenys a tyrant. When Aenys asked him to reinstate him, the High Septon addressed him as 'King Abomination' in a letter. The Warrior's Sons fortified the Sept of Remembrance on Rhaenys' Hill [possibly named so in memory of Rhaenys - the sept stood on her hill, after all], and a fortnight later Septon Murmison was dragged out of his litter and hacked to pieces by Poor Fellows. Aenys made preparations to leave the capital for Dragonstone, but he and his family were attacked by Poor Fellows who scaled the walls of the half-completed Red Keep and attacked the royal family in their sleep. Only the intervention of the Kingsguard, namely Ser Raymont Baratheon, saved Aenys and his family.

After arriving on Dragonstone, Visenya demanded that Aenys unleash his dragons on the Warrior's Sons in KL, and the Starry Sept of Oldtown, or that he give her leave to attack the places on Vhagar. Aenys sent her to her chambers in Sea Dragon Tower, and commanded that she stay there. Talk is that he may have been reluctant to use the dragons in battle due to the fate of his mother.

In King's Landing, the Warrior's Sons stopped the construction of the Red Keep, and ruled the city in every effect, and when an envoy from the Iron Bank of Braavos had to discuss matters with the King of Westeros, he looked for him in Oldtown, and talked to the High Septon - the true King of Westeros.

Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena have to seek refuge in Crakehall Castle, which is then besieged by the Faith Militant.

On Dragonstone, Aenys falls ill suddenly. Something is wrong with his bowels. Grand Maester cannot improve his condition, so eventually the Queen Dowager Visenya takes over his care. For a time he seems to get better, but when he learns that Aegon and Rhaena are besieged in Crakehall, he has a breakdown. He dies shortly thereafter. [This whole thing looks pretty much like the Tears of Lys, if you ask me.] He is 35 at his death, but it is said that he looked like a man of 60.

Alyssa, and her children Viserys, Jaehaerys, and Alysanne attend Aenys' funeral. He is burned in the Targaryen fashion. Visenya is not present, an hour after Aenys' death she mounted Vhagar and flew to Pentos. She returns soon thereafter, accompanied by her son, Prince Maegor, riding Balerion.

End of the reading.

[speculations about the continuation of the story: The fact that Aegon and Rhaena aren't on Dragonstone/in King's Landing seems to indicate how Visenya can install Maegor as king. And if Maegor can successfully retake KL from the Faith Militant, this should be the first step to prove that he is a powerful warrior-king in the eyes of the lords. Eventually, Prince Aegon will be able to muster an army to challenge his uncle, the usurper, but the fact that Aegon and Rhaena were besieged at Crakehall strongly suggests that Rhaena did not take her dragon, Dreamfyre, with her on the progress. How Aegon eventually bonded with Quicksilver, the dragon of his father, should be an interesting story. He should have been with Aenys on Dragonstone when he died, I guess, if Quicksilver was not left to his own devices in KL when the royal family fled the capital. I doubt that Prince Aegon can just simply return to KL/Dragonstone after Maegor has taken the throne, to bond with the dragon of his father. Quicksilver most likely sought him out/stumbled on him, not the other way around.

Back in the very early excerpt from the Worldbook, the Tyanna woman was called 'Tyanna of Pentos'. This should be a hint that Maegor/Alys met this woman during their exile in Pentos. She most likely accompanied them back to Westeros.]

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I'm so behind on all the LonCon information! ARG. Anyone have a quick and dirty synopsis so I don't have to wade through pages of threads? If not, that's cool. I'll just sit here and suffer (and read what other people say)

In resumen, about Aegon (I gave a quick look, so, feel free to correct me), the dirty summary:

Cool chap. Good husband, good father, cool grandpa. His wives were... well, Visenya was dutiful but there was no passion there. And Rhaenys was probably fun under the sheets but she didn't appreciate him and had other men. There were (here in the forum, not in the Con) speculation that he was infertile because he only had two sons and no daughters. After Rhaenys died (his favourite, who probably took moon tea or whatever Valyrian used because she had other partners) he was left with one heir that seemed to be weak and cried all the time for his mother (yes, I imagine Aegon a la Fred Flinstone screaming for someone to make that kid to shut the fuck up... "VISENYAAAA!"). They had to conceive Maegor and Visenya needed some "magic" for that (that and close their eyes, both of them. I can actually imagine her saying something like "yeah, whatever, for the Kingdom... do your think, Blondie, and let's get over with this) to conceive a child. Now, I don't think he was infertile. I think it was due to all of them being busy conquering Westeros.That, and neither of the wives looked very maternal. Or maybe all of that dragon mounting hurts the sperm, like (allegedly) laptops on your lap do. After all, dragons are hot. Kidding, either way, I think Visenya indeed conceived Maegor with Aegon. I mean, not even magic can make you conceive a child of your own, unless your name is Virgin Marya).

Then, Aegon travelled to DS and Visenya stayed in KL to supervise the building of the RK, and because Aegon couldn't tolerate her anymore.

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I'm one of those who don't put any stock in what Allyria Dayne says. We don't know enough about her to say that her judgment or knowledge is first hand.


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Maybe Rhaegar's last words were supposed to be "Lyanna... loved Arthur, you asshole!" :dunno:

I'm pretty sure there would have been "that guy" who is ALWAYS around, (much like Mushroom), to have reported Rhaegars wroth:

"DAMMIT Daaaaaayne!!!!!"

Tbh, while there is a small chance Arthur could have loved Lyanna, that chance is very very very very very very very very very small. So, no chance.

I would've have liked to know that Arthur had a lady, though.

And TBH, its something I wouldn't rule out either, it might be the thing that spurred him on to fight for her after Rhaegar was dead, but I don't think it would be something physical but an ideal, especially with her having been tKotLT.

It would have been truly in the tradition of chivalry, unattainable and something he would never betray Rhaegar for, even in death.

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Thank you Rhaenys and JonCon!! I appreciate the summary and linkages. So....Aegon was not so happy in either marriage. Rhaegar most likely knew this so I want to believe that he had a plan, even if it wasn't a "smart" plan, there was one in place so that Elia and Lyanna didn't end up as enemies.






"Arthur, why didn't you drag Rhaegar back to KL? Aaargh!!!"





A bit more on topic:


With the info from LonCon, I'm wondering whether Rhaegar thought that his polygamous marriage would actually have a chance of succeeding. Rhaenys and Visenya were sisters, and look at that marriage..





It might have actually helped that Lyanna and Elia weren't sisters in this case. With Visenya and Rhaenys, there is also the question of succession for their children but if Rhaegar made promises that no matter what Elia's son would sit the throne then Rhaegar might have thought everything would work out (cause prophecy). Maybe incredibly naive of him but at least he had some sort of plan.


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Thank you Rhaenys and JonCon!! I appreciate the summary and linkages. So....Aegon was not so happy in either marriage. Rhaegar most likely knew this so I want to believe that he had a plan, even if it wasn't a "smart" plan, there was one in place so that Elia and Lyanna didn't end up as enemies.

The only solution was to make Elia and Lyanna like each other.

I'd suggest trios. Trios always work. That was Aegon's problem: he took each of them separately. Duh... how dumb.

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The only solution was to make Elia and Lyanna like each other.

I'd suggest trios. Trios always work. That was Aegon's problem: he took each of them separately. Duh... how dumb.

Well sure. That's one possible solution. :lmao:

But, to be serious, if Elia knows that 1) Rhaegar loves Lyanna 2) she herself can't have anymore children without risk of death and 3) if Rhaegar and she were "in" on it together, Elia might have been okay with Rhaegar being the loving husband to Lyanna so long as Aegon still got the throne. It's not a very smart plan, I know. Dorne and the North would have have tried to pit the women and their children against each other, constantly.

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The only solution was to make Elia and Lyanna like each other.

I'd suggest trios. Trios always work. That was Aegon's problem: he took each of them separately. Duh... how dumb.

Don't joke ! I just stumbled on a fanfiction about a threesome between Elia/Lyanna/Rhaegar.The idea to "abduct" Lyanna came from Elia I think from what the summary said :eek:

I'm pretty sure there would have been "that guy" who is ALWAYS around, (much like Mushroom), to have reported Rhaegars wroth:

"DAMMIT Daaaaaayne!!!!!"

And TBH, its something I wouldn't rule out either, it might be the thing that spurred him on to fight for her after Rhaegar was dead, but I don't think it would be something physical but an ideal, especially with her having been tKotLT.

It would have been truly in the tradition of chivalry, unattainable and something he would never betray Rhaegar for, even in death.

A la Lancelot ?

ps: The Thread Who Wasn't Pinned

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Don't joke ! I just stumbled on a fanfiction about a threesome between Elia/Lyanna/Rhaegar.The idea to "abduct" Lyanna came from Elia I think from what the summary said :eek:

A la Lancelot ?

ps: The Thread Who Wasn't Pinned

Exactly. Either Lyanna, or Elia. ;)

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