R+L=J v.97

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Why does GRRM introduce the idea of polygamy in these instances--never state that polygamy was outlawed (actually, in SSM explicitly state it was never outlawed)--unless he is giving the reader the clues that R&L could have been married?

I agree to a point, I just don't see a ceremony before a heart tree happening with a Targaryen south of the Neck. We're also given several instances of polygamy not being tolerated, and a marriage officiated with an old valyrian custom - because it was polygamous.

[BearQueen87]

The chances are pretty bad that Rhaegar found a willing septon to marry him to Lyanna. Even if he did it, this would not be prevent the High Septon (or King Aerys II) from declaring that marriage unlawful and annulling it. The same should be true if Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a heart tree. This would suffice if a couple from two First Men houses ran off with each other, but the Prince of Dragonstone intends to rule as king eventually over six kingdoms who follow the Faith of the Seven. If neither the High Septon nor Aerys would accept Rhaegar's second marriage - and there is no reason why the hell they should, especially not Aerys - Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Elia are fried. Well, they are anyway, but assuming that Rhaegar returned to KL to present Lyanna to the court. Aerys would most certainly jumped on th opportunity to disinherit Rhaegar and his children by Elia along with him in favor of Viserys. He could have even executed him.

A septon that works on a daily basis from a sept and answers to the High Septon regularly, maybe. But someone like Meribald who is way more free in his practice of providing faith is willing. He does it all the time, for the past 30 years. And we've seen so many cases of the High Septon doing what the crown asks. And as far as Aerys goes, he would have been out of the picture by the time the news comes out.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The Faith forced King Aenys I to exile his brother, Prince Maegor, because of his second wife (or at least the Faith echoed Aenys' own misgivings). The High Septon referred to Alys Harroway, Maegor's second wife, as 'that whore of Harroway', so Maegor's marriage clearly was not accepted by the Faith of the Seven.

As of yet, we don't know if Maegor found a willing septon to officiate at his other four weddings, but somehow I doubt it. They may all turn out to be Valyrian ceremonies - just as his wedding to Alys was. Even if he did find a septon, the man most certainly was forced to conduct the ceremony, and the High Septon in Oldtown - or his successors - may have declared those marriages null and void later on. The High Septon can annul marriages, so it would be pretty easy for him to do this, even if no one did ask him to do it...

The chances are pretty bad that Rhaegar found a willing septon to marry him to Lyanna. Even if he did it, this would not be prevent the High Septon (or King Aerys II) from declaring that marriage unlawful and annulling it. The same should be true if Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a heart tree. This would suffice if a couple from two First Men houses ran off with each other, but the Prince of Dragonstone intends to rule as king eventually over six kingdoms who follow the Faith of the Seven. If neither the High Septon nor Aerys would accept Rhaegar's second marriage - and there is no reason why the hell they should, especially not Aerys - Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Elia are fried. Well, they are anyway, but assuming that Rhaegar returned to KL to present Lyanna to the court. Aerys would most certainly jumped on th opportunity to disinherit Rhaegar and his children by Elia along with him in favor of Viserys. He could have even executed him.

This does of course not mean that Rhaegar did not marry Lyanna. He could have found a way, perhaps he forced or threatened a septon to do it, or he found a heart tree. But we have now confirmation that it was an utter stupidity, and that it was very unlikely to stand in front of gods and men if he had survived. And I very much doubt that anyone in Westeros will be eager to back the claim of a child descended from that union. The Dornishmen most certainly won't.

Why are you so sure you know how Aerys would have reacted to Rhaegar marrying Lyanna? In particular, it seems likely that Rhaegar was waiting until he had a child to bring back with him, so setting aside the marriage would be more difficult. While the disinheritance option you suggest might have been available--why do you think Aerys would have done this? We know that Aerys was aware of the prophesy--his father forced him to marry his sister due to the prophesy. If Rhaegar similarly said he had to marry Lyanna to fulfill the prophesy, and he brought the third head of the dragon home with him, why would you think Aerys would disinherit him? Just because Aerys did not completely trust Rhaegar, that does not mean he preferred Viserys to be king. Aerys did not really trust anyone.

[Arlan of Pennytree]

What's the quote from Tyrion? The only difference between us and them is then when the Wall went up, our ancestors were on the right side of it?

I think trying to draw a civilized/uncivilized between 7Kingdom'ers and Free Folk is shaky. They worship the same gods. They have some cultural differences but their religion is the same as the Northerners

There's quite a few differences between the free folk and the Westerosi-proper. And why just these two examples? People had as many children (free labor) as possible, and an easy way to do that would be to have several wives, but that doesn't seem to be the custom. Also, if men could, a good percentage would take extra wives, for reasons I don't have to state here.

[Ygrain]

But, these are Wildling examples. . .Not exactly part of the civilized realm. I tend to think that if the Old Gods (or those who worshiped them) did not frown upon polygamy, the entire north would polygamous. Particularly within the population of the smallfolk and the Wildlings (*minus our only two examples), given their labor-intensive lives. I just don't think two examples of Wildling plural marriages equals Old Gods smiling upon it. Craster sacrifices his sons to ice-demons, I think we have good reason to question his faith

It doesn't really matter that those are Wildling examples. What matters is the attitude of the people who witness these examples, and here we have a good few non-Wildling guys, raised in the Faith of the Seven, who don't bat a lash over it, even though they never fail to comment on Craster's incest with Gilly.

The Faith forced King Aenys I to exile his brother, Prince Maegor, because of his second wife (or at least the Faith echoed Aenys' own misgivings). The High Septon referred to Alys Harroway, Maegor's second wife, as 'that whore of Harroway', so Maegor's marriage clearly was not accepted by the Faith of the Seven.

As of yet, we don't know if Maegor found a willing septon to officiate at his other four weddings, but somehow I doubt it. They may all turn out to be Valyrian ceremonies - just as his wedding to Alys was. Even if he did find a septon, the man most certainly was forced to conduct the ceremony, and the High Septon in Oldtown - or his successors - may have declared those marriages null and void later on. The High Septon can annul marriages, so it would be pretty easy for him to do this, even if no one did ask him to do it...

The chances are pretty bad that Rhaegar found a willing septon to marry him to Lyanna. Even if he did it, this would not be prevent the High Septon (or King Aerys II) from declaring that marriage unlawful and annulling it. The same should be true if Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of a heart tree. This would suffice if a couple from two First Men houses ran off with each other, but the Prince of Dragonstone intends to rule as king eventually over six kingdoms who follow the Faith of the Seven. If neither the High Septon nor Aerys would accept Rhaegar's second marriage - and there is no reason why the hell they should, especially not Aerys - Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Elia are fried. Well, they are anyway, but assuming that Rhaegar returned to KL to present Lyanna to the court. Aerys would most certainly jumped on th opportunity to disinherit Rhaegar and his children by Elia along with him in favor of Viserys. He could have even executed him.

This does of course not mean that Rhaegar did not marry Lyanna. He could have found a way, perhaps he forced or threatened a septon to do it, or he found a heart tree. But we have now confirmation that it was an utter stupidity, and that it was very unlikely to stand in front of gods and men if he had survived. And I very much doubt that anyone in Westeros will be eager to back the claim of a child descended from that union. The Dornishmen most certainly won't.

Do we have any precedent of a vow to the old gods annuled by an outside authority?

[UnmaskedLurker]

There's quite a few differences between the free folk and the Westerosi-proper. Why just these two? People had as many children (free labor!) as possible, and an easy way to do that would be to have several wives, but that doesn't seem to be the custom.

Yes, there were different customs. There are good political reasons not to have polygamous marriages. In the Hebrew Bible, polygamy was clearly permitted (Jacob had 4 wives--I think Solomon over 100), but we see only a few actual examples of it happening. Even in situations were polygamy is permitted, it often still is not widely practiced and generally discouraged.

The point is that Craster's incest is criticized, his polygamy (and Oldfather's polygamy) not so much. If polygamy was so frowned upon and illegal in Westeros, it seems someone would have said something to that effect more clearly.

[stateofdissipation]

What's the quote from Tyrion? The only difference between us and them is then when the Wall went up, our ancestors were on the right side of it?

I think trying to draw a civilized/uncivilized between 7Kingdom'ers and Free Folk is shaky. They worship the same gods. They have some cultural differences but their religion is the same as the Northerners

The line is 700 feet tall and 300 miles long... and stood for 8000 years

aCoK chapter 23 aSoS chapter 26 and 33... is where we have Craster

aDwD chapter 69 is where we have Ygon..

Oddly enough their religion is not mentioned...

[Lord Varys]

A septon like Merribald would have been abhorred by the thought of polygamy. If I understand his type correctly, they have principles. The new High Septon is also a septon like Merribald.

But as you just said, the High Septon usually does what the Crown (i.e. the King) wants, at least since Jaehaerys I, so the High Septon would have done what King Aerys II wanted him to do. And I really don't see why on earth Aerys should have wanted to allow Rhaegar two wives. At best, Rhaegar would have been allowed to choose between the Iron Throne and Lyanna, just as Prince Duncan had to choose before him. With Aerys, it would have been much more likely that he had used this whole thing as a pretext to sentence Rhaegar and Lyanna to death.

I don't see a reason why even Rhaegar's supporters among the Lords should his urge to mimic the polygamy of Aegon I and Maegor the Cruel. And why would they? We see that the whole Lyanna thought led the groundwork for the alliance against House Targaryen, so, assuming that Rhaegar presented Lyanna before Aerys executed Rickard and Brandon (or assuming that this didn't happen at all), Aerys could have reasonably assumed that pretty much no one at his court would speak up in defense of 'Ribald Rhaegar'. And why should they? Lyanna Stark was betrothed to somebody else, and Prince Rhaegar already had a wife.

UnmaskedLurker,

I'm so sure because there a very strong hints that the relationship between Aerys and Rhaegar was very bad indeed. At the end, Aerys even used his own grandchildren and daughter-in-law as hostages, that's nothing a loving (grand)father would ever consider. And I think I've already mentioned the whole 'Rhaegar committed high treason when he tried to summon a covert Great Council at Harrenhal' half a hundred times already, so I won't to it here again. In this situation, Aerys would have considered Rhaegar's child by Lyanna as another proof that his son and heir was trying to conspire against him and forge alliances by marrying into yet another great house.

Nothing indicates that Aerys ever believed in the prophecy. Jaehaerys did, and he forced his son to marry his sister. But the prophecy did not specify anything. 'The prince that was promised will be born from the line of Prince Aerys and Princess Rhaella', not 'The prince that was promised will be born from the line of Prince Rhaegar'. When Viserys was born, Aerys did no longer need Rhaegar, since his other son could also continue his and Rhaella's line (or be the promised prince).

Ygrain,

not to my knowledge, but my point was that the followers of the Faith of the Seven could easily make the point that somebody who wants to rule over them should marry according to their (and his own) belief, not in the way the followers of the old gods do. Rhaegar himself was following the Seven.

But I'm pretty sure that the First Men of old chose and discarded their wives as they saw fit. The wildlings still do what they want, and it would have been exactly this way in the early days in all the North.

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Yes, there were different customs. There are good political reasons not to have polygamous marriages. In the Hebrew Bible, polygamy was clearly permitted (Jacob had 4 wives--I think Solomon over 100), but we see only a few actual examples of it happening. Even in situations were polygamy is permitted, it often still is not widely practiced and generally discouraged.

The point is that Craster's incest is criticized, his polygamy (and Oldfather's polygamy) not so much. If polygamy was so frowned upon and illegal in Westeros, it seems someone would have said something to that effect more clearly.

someone did, the High Septon - and a prince was exiled because of it, right? That's the conclusion I came to anyway. . .

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ygon is also not from the Seven Kingdoms....

Craster is also not from the Seve Kingdoms...

Kahl Jomo has four wives... in Essos

Slavery is practiced in Essos

Cannibalism is practiced by the Thenns

Cannibalism amongst the Thenns is show canon, I can't recall ever having read it in the books.

[UnmaskedLurker]

someone did, the High Septon - and a prince was exiled because of it, right? That's the conclusion I came to anyway. . .

Maegor was exiled perhaps because his first wife was the niece of the HS--not because of the polygamy thing. And it was Aenys who did the exile--who did not want Maegor to be crown prince or have too much power--so exiling Maegor served other purposes perhaps as well. Aerys is not in the same position. He obviously trusts Rhaegar enough to call R back to lead the battle at Trident. And Maegor's marriage was accepted as a marriage and Maegor got a 5-year exile, not disinheritance (which is more dramatic than exile). The HS apparently had no power to do anything about Maegor's marriages.

So perhaps Aerys would not have been thrilled, but maybe Rhaegar thought once seeing the baby, Aerys would understand. Who knows? The point is that Aenys did what he did for his own reasons--keep in mind that he married his children to each other even though the Faith objected, so his exile of Maegor was not just because the Faith objected. Aerys would use his own judgment--he would not care what Aenys did over 200 years prior.

[BearQueen87]

A septon like Merribald would have been abhorred by the thought of polygamy. If I understand his type correctly, they have principles. The new High Septon is also a septon like Merribald.

What evidence do you have of that? And you're saying that having principles = thinking polygamy is abhorrent. Again, what evidence?

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Rhaenys_Targaryen, Thank you very much for your post back on p.1 of the thread (In reply to BearQueen97's req. for LonCon info), great stuff!

[stateofdissipation]

Cannibalism amongst the Thenns is show canon, I can't recall ever having read it in the books.

The ice-river clans and the raiders from the Frozen Shore...

[sabrecmc]

I never got the impression that polygamy for Targs was looked down on or illegal in Westeros. Just more or less part and parcel of the Targ otherness. Because dragons.

I'm with Unmasked Lurker that introducing elements in the story like Targ polygamy, Meribald the Random Septon being in the general area where R&L would encounter him, that kind of thing isn't done just to add word length. I mean, there would be no in-story reason for Targ polygamy but for R+L=J. So, it is either sloppy storytelling or means something.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaenys_Targaryen, Thank you very much for your post back on p.1 of the thread (In reply to BearQueen97's req. for LonCon info), great stuff!

With special thanks to Lord Varys, who wrote the notes :)

The ice-river clans and the raiders from the Frozen Shore...

Ice-river clans and raiders from the Frozen Shore are not Thenns, as you stated ;)

[BearQueen87]

I never got the impression that polygamy for Targs was looked down on or illegal in Westeros. Just more or less part and parcel of the Targ otherness. Because dragons.

I'm with Unmasked Lurker that introducing elements in the story like Targ polygamy, Meribald the Random Septon being in the general area where R&L would encounter him, that kind of thing isn't done just to add word length. I mean, there would be no in-story reason for Targ polygamy but for R+L=J. So, it is either sloppy storytelling or means something.

Exactly. We do not spend many (many) chapters with Brienne and Meribald traveling the Riverlands, "watching" the kind of work Meribald does and the kind of faith he practices and dolls out to others if it didn't mean something. He has the fantastic Broken Man speech but that's just one small part of one chapter. He was there to illustrate the idea of wandering septons who marry people, hear confessions, and are incredibly good hearted to those who need it.

[UnmaskedLurker]

UnmaskedLurker,

I'm so sure because there a very strong hints that the relationship between Aerys and Rhaegar was very bad indeed. At the end, Aerys even used his own grandchildren and daughter-in-law as hostages, that's nothing a loving (grand)father would ever consider. And I think I've already mentioned the whole 'Rhaegar committed high treason when he tried to summon a covert Great Council at Harrenhal' half a hundred times already, so I won't to it here again. In this situation, Aerys would have considered Rhaegar's child by Lyanna as another proof that his son and heir was trying to conspire against him and forge alliances by marrying into yet another great house.

Nothing indicates that Aerys ever believed in the prophecy. Jaehaerys did, and he forced his son to marry his sister. But the prophecy did not specify anything. 'The prince that was promised will be born from the line of Prince Aerys and Princess Rhaella', not 'The prince that was promised will be born from the line of Prince Rhaegar'. When Viserys was born, Aerys did no longer need Rhaegar, since his other son could also continue his and Rhaella's line (or be the promised prince).

I really am having a hard time following your logic. If the relationship was so bad, why did Aerys send Hightower to find Rhaegar and have Rhaegar lead the battle at the Trident? Why would an alliance with another Great House necessarily threaten Aerys? It could be seen as securing the position of the Targ dynasty generally. While Aerys was not the easiest guy to get along with, and clearly there were some strains in the relationship between Aerys and Rhaegar, we have no evidence what-so-ever that marrying Lyanna would push Aerys over the edge to disinherit Rhaegar. You are just making up this conclusion. Do we have any examples of Targ kings disinheriting an older son in favor of a younger son?

We have strong evidence that Rhaegar did marry Lyanna, and he also seemed to be waiting for the child to be born to return. I don't think Rhaegar thought Aerys would disinherit him (and Rhaegar would know his own father better than you would). So while Rhaegar might be wrong, how can you know that Aerys would go so far as to disinherit Rhaegar for marrying Lyanna?

And the point is not that Rhaegar must be the father of the three heads in Aerys's point of view. The point is that Aerys likely would understand that Rhaegar believed he had to be father of the three heads--explaining why he went off, married Lyanna, and had a third child with her. Even if Aerys thinks Rhaegar is wrong or that the prophesy is nonsense, Aerys would understand that Rhaegar's motives might be explained by this reason and not the desire to usurp Aerys. And Viserys was a child at the time. As we have seen with the Aerion/Egg situation, having your heir only be a child can be problematic. Until the heir is old enough to press his own claim, there is risk. So Aerys arguably still needed Rhaegar as an heir for some period of time--at least until Viserys is of age and shows himself capable of being king. Otherwise, the disinheritance might just be ignored by a Great Council.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

don't try to twist things here. I was there, I heard it in George's own words. The High Septon was pissed because of Maegor's second marriage, and he did not consider it lawful (the fact that Ceryse was his own niece certainly would have figured into the intensity of his wroth). No septon in all the Realm officiated at the ceremony prior to the High Septon wrath - the Realm only learned about what Maegor had done after he announced it -, and Maegor was forced to turn to Visenya for the ceremony, who then made an old 'fire and blood' wedding.

Maegor was also not the Crown Prince or heir of Aenys. Aenys offered him that they rule together - and that they did until 39 AC, with Maegor serving as Aenys' Hand, not as his heir and chosen successor. Those were always Aenys' own children, first Princess Rhaena, and then Aegon, Viserys, Jaehaerys - followed by Rhaena and Alysanne (Vaella died).

Maegor was also very specifically punished for his polygamous marriage. He had to choose between discarding Alys, and exile. He chose exile, and took Alys with him. I've written all of that down in my report from the reading.

Meribald is a nice guy, but the new High Septon - also a former wandering septon - is not. The reading also stated that in the eyes of the common septons the Targaryen practices still remained unlawful despite the fact that the High Septon did not speak up against them while Aegon still lived, who continued to preach that incest was a vile sin.

And I've to repeat myself: I never said or wanted to say that Rhaegar did not marry Lyanna. Just that it was a stupid idea, and that it possibly involved coercion or threats.

[lareine]

A septon like Merribald would have been abhorred by the thought of polygamy. If I understand his type correctly, they have principles. The new High Septon is also a septon like Merribald.

Didn't you also mention in your notes from the reading that the High Septon had expelled a septon from the faith for performing a Targaryen brother/sister marriage against his wishes?