R+L=J v.98

[Alia of the knife]

I was tempted to watch it on TV just a few days ago. Then I spotted your avatar.

What would H R Giger have done with a dragon? I'm not tempted down the path of an oversize Alien. A good, honest, fire-belching dragon as we have in the books. Heavy Metal Drogon? Possibly with Barbarian as his/her anthem. (Continuing HRG link via ELP) Transform Dany in the process too!

But....

If R+L=J.... Jon will fly.... Which dragon?

His own dragon :)

As for my Avatar, I've always been partial to Giger, and in my head always imagined the North to be somewhat alien and foreboding, with its own dark beauty.

Many of Gigers female characters were based upon his lover who died when she was young, so when I saw this, it made me think of Lyannas tomb and statue, especially the alien majesty of the look.

[BearQueen87]

Yet Aemon, arguing that the PTWP is Dany says:

I suspect that most Dragons are bastards, so why shouldn't the PTWP be one too?

Interpreting prophecy is tricky business. Interpreting prophecies that are dubiously translated, even more so.

Why are most dragons bastards?

[Alia of the knife]

As for where Rhaegar lived, I would imagine Dragonstone would be his seat, but given he supposedly saw a comet over KL th he night Aegon was conceived, my impression was that he stayed in KL, if nothing else to watch Aerys.

And there are the secrets of KL

[RumHam]

Yet Aemon, arguing that the PTWP is Dany says:

I suspect that most Dragons are bastards, so why shouldn't the PTWP be one too?

Interpreting prophecy is tricky business. Interpreting prophecies that are dubiously translated, even more so.

Now you've got me imagining a dragon wedding.

I really have a hard time believing that two people being married in the eyes of the Faith could effect an old Valyrian prophecy in any way. The Faith of the Seven may not have even existed when the prophecy was made. Even a weirwood or Valyrian marriage in the end is just a social thing. Why would Jon's parents not being married prevent him from saving the world?

[BearQueen87]

Now you've got me imagining a dragon wedding.

I really have a hard time believing that two people being married in the eyes of the Faith could effect an old Valyrian prophecy in any way. The Faith of the Seven may not have even existed when the prophecy was made. Even a weirwood or Valyrian marriage in the end is just a social thing. Why would Jon's parents not being married prevent him from saving the world?

Jon's parents being married or not married probably has zero actual effect on the prophecy. What matters is how Rhaegar would have interpreted it. Every time he comes to a conclusion about who TPTWP is (himself or Aegon) it's a prince. I think he's clearly taking the PRINCE aspect literally.

[RumHam]

Jon's parents being married or not married probably has zero actual effect on the prophecy. What matters is how Rhaegar would have interpreted it. Every time he comes to a conclusion about who TPTWP is (himself or Aegon) it's a prince. I think he's clearly taking the PRINCE aspect literally.

That's a good point. I guess it would come down to if he wanted to follow the prophecy too the letter or not. As others have pointed out though there was no comet to herald Jon's conception, no place of salt and smoke (that would have come later, but we have no indication that Rhaegar or Lyanna thought he had to be born on Dragonstone to fulfill the prophecy.) So Jon already didn't fit the prophecy.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

That's a good point. I guess it would come down to if he wanted to follow the prophecy too the letter or not. As others have pointed out though there was no comet to herald Jon's conception, no place of salt and smoke (that would have come later, but we have no indication that Rhaegar or Lyanna thought he had to be born on Dragonstone to fulfill the prophecy.) So Jon already didn't fit the prophecy.

Unless, of course, we have been trolled and the comet stands for the very heart of the fallen star - a sword called "Dawn" - and salt and smoke are poetic for ice and fire.

No, I did not say a thing ;)

[BearQueen87]

That's a good point. I guess it would come down to if he wanted to follow the prophecy too the letter or not. As others have pointed out though there was no comet to herald Jon's conception, no place of salt and smoke (that would have come later, but we have no indication that Rhaegar or Lyanna thought he had to be born on Dragonstone to fulfill the prophecy.) So Jon already didn't fit the prophecy.

Salt = the tears shed by all involved at the ToJ

Smoke = If Lyanna was cremated as some of theorized then you've got smoke.

Red Star = Arthur Dayne, son of STARfall, as he bleeds to death.

There are definitely non-literal ways that it could have come to pass.

[RumHam]

Salt = the tears shed by all involved at the ToJ

Smoke = If Lyanna was cremated as some of theorized then you've got smoke.

Red Star = Arthur Dayne, son of STARfall, as he bleeds to death.

There are definitely non-literal ways that it could have come to pass.

I'm aware, I just don't buy into them. Especially not when there was a literal red star for Aegon's birth and Danaerys' "rebirth." The cremation one is especially ridiculous in my opinion. They weren't cremating her as Jon was being born.

[Mithras]

Red Star = Arthur Dayne, son of STARfall, as he bleeds to death.

He was the Sword of Morning, which is a known constellation, so his bleeding might be the bleeding of stars.

[BearQueen87]

I'm aware, I just don't buy into them. Especially not when there was a literal red star for Aegon's birth and Danaerys' "rebirth." The cremation one is especially ridiculous in my opinion. They weren't cremating her as Jon was being born.

Of course not, I agree. But it all comes down to when all these signs are supposed to take place. If you don't like the previous suggestions, then how about in the last Jon POV in Dance?

Salt = the tears of the NW's men

Smoke = Jon's wound is smoking

Red Star = Patrek (can't remember his last name suddenly to save my life...) being torn apart and bleeding on to his star sigil.

There are a lot of literal things with Dany, I agree. Apple Martini said it best in another thread, we won't actually know who TPTWP is until they do whatever TPTWP is supposed to do. Then we can look back and go "oooooooh. riiiiiiiiight."

But I think Jon is the best candidate.

[Ygrain]

Isn't there a theory that the Maesters were lying, under order of Tywin Lannister, and making Elia seem more sick than she actually was? Did I make this theory up in my head?

ETA: either the vision in the HotU is totally inaccurate as far as history and this is all magical vision (which is problematic seeing how much we all use it for various theories--3headed dragon, ASOIAF) OR Elia wasn't as sick as people were lead to believe.

You didn't, I did :D - There is almost no substance to it, no real textual support - it was sparkled by Tyrion's little speech to Pycelle, accusing him of betraying all those he had served and asking how far those betrayals went, and he mentions Rhaegar among those possibly betrayed. I wondered why Tyrion would think so and how Pycelle could have betrayed Rhaegar. As a maester, Pycelle could have monitored or tampered with Rhaegar's correspondence, or, being a Lannister cronie, he could have messed with or misinformed about Elia's health.

[RumHam]

Of course not, I agree. But it all comes down to when all these signs are supposed to take place. If you don't like the previous suggestions, then how about in the last Jon POV in Dance?

Salt = the tears of the NW's men

Smoke = Jon's wound is smoking

Red Star = Patrek (can't remember his last name suddenly to save my life...) being torn apart and bleeding on to his star sigil.

There are a lot of literal things with Dany, I agree. Apple Martini said it best in another thread, we won't actually know who TPTWP is until they do whatever TPTWP is supposed to do. Then we can look back and go "oooooooh. riiiiiiiiight."

But I think Jon is the best candidate.

Yeah I've heard those too. I don't like the idea of "salt" being tears, even though Rhaegar and Aemon thought this was the case. I mean that's a helluva translation error to go from tears to salt, but anythings possible. As I've said in other threads I suspect Azor Ahai was reborn in Jon, Daenerys and a third individual.

[RumHam]

Has anyone ever considered that there might be a supernatural cause to the "false spring?" Maybe tied to the idea that Aegon was the false Prince that was Promised? I'm not sure that the timing works out. But it seems really odd that there was this period of spring and then it plunged back into winter, and this all happened the year Rhaegar met Lyanna and Aegon was born.

[Mithras]

I like to take the salt in the prophecy as stone which came this way because of some possible mistranslations. And the smoke might be mist in reality.

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt.

Still as stone.

[Kingmonkey]

Why are most dragons bastards?

Because their parents probably weren't married.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Because their parents probably weren't married.

I am not sure if that is snark or if you are being serious, so I will ask the question a different way. What evidence do you have from the text that most "dragons" (by which I assume you mean people with significant percentage of Targ ancestry) were born of parents who were not married?

[RumHam]

I am not sure if that is snark or if you are being serious, so I will ask the question a different way. What evidence do you have from the text that most "dragons" (by which I assume you mean people with significant percentage of Targ ancestry) were born of parents who were not married?

No, I'm almost sure he means actual fire breathing dragons.

[BearQueen87]

Because their parents probably weren't married.

Like Unmasked Lurker I can't tell if you mean people (Targaryen's) or you mean actual fire breathing death from the sky scaled lizards.....

[Kingmonkey]

Like Unmasked Lurker I can't tell if you mean people (Targaryen's) or you mean actual fire breathing death from the sky scaled lizards.....

A look back at my original post should make this clear. I'm arguing that being a bastard does not count someone out from the PTWP prophecy any more than being female does, as per Maester Aemon's comments on mistranslation. We're not given a translator's analysis, but Aemon says "Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years" and concludes from this that prince could be princess. By the same logic, I'd argue that the Prince that Was Promised could be a bastard, and indeed doesn't have to be prince according to the law of the Faith of the Seven.

So yeah, I'm talking about the "fire breathing death from the sky scaled lizards". For some reason, I suddenly have an image in my head of Dany at the wall, asking Jon if he feels sure he's up to riding a dragon into battle, and Jon answering "How hard can it be? You just stick them with the flamey end."