The power of Beric and Catelyn comes from the Old Gods, not the Lord of Light, and Jaime will be next.

[Orbulas B. Harding]

Not entirely convinced that one faith needs to cancel out the other, fire and light are universal symbols for life, especially in this story (well, it's also a symbol of chaos and destruction... but the metaphyics of this whole shebang are about 'Balance' and the two extremes of the stories namesake Fire and Ice)

But I do, really, really love your Bloodraven take on it.

Brilliant observations. Brilliant ideas. Incredible well argued.

I'm putting this in the "I think he might be right/ If he is not right, at least he had a really interesting idea" folder
That's the top tier folder for messageboard theories.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Not entirely convinced that one faith needs to cancel out the other, fire and light are universal symbols for life, especially in this story (well, it's also a symbol of chaos and destruction... but the metaphyics of this whole shebang are about 'Balance' and the two extremes of the stories namesake Fire and Ice)

But I do, really, really love your Bloodraven take on it.

Brilliant observations. Brilliant ideas. Incredible well argued.

I'm putting this in the "I think he might be right/ If he is not right, at least he had a really interesting idea" folder

That's the top tier folder for messageboard theories.

Thanks man. Most people tell me I'm cracked.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Does Thoros' power come from the old god's too? He is the one responsible for both Beric and Catelyn.

Since he studied as a red priest, I find this hypothesis highly unlikely

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Great observations. I am really beginning to think that that magic may not have essentially different forms; magic is just magic and can be used differently according to the talents and environment of the user. Weirwoods are magic, the Wall is magic, both are sources that can be drawn on by people with magical talent. In fact, maybe being around the weirwoods is what sparked Thoros's magical ability. But the only kind of magic he knows is R'hllor, so that's what he interpreted it as. Necromancy and scrying are definitely linked with a variety of magic elements.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Great observations. I am really beginning to think that that magic may not have essentially different forms; magic is just magic and can be used differently according to the talents and environment of the user. Weirwoods are magic, the Wall is magic, both are sources that can be drawn on by people with magical talent. In fact, maybe being around the weirwoods is what sparked Thoros's magical ability. But the only kind of magic he knows is R'hllor, so that's what he interpreted it as. Necromancy and scrying are definitely linked with a variety of magic elements.

I had to look up scrying. I like your argument. It helps explain why a red priestess like Melisandre can become a shadowbinder and why a shadowbinder like Quaithe isn't a red priestess.

[bemused]

Great observations. I am really beginning to think that that magic may not have essentially different forms; magic is just magic and can be used differently according to the talents and environment of the user. Weirwoods are magic, the Wall is magic, both are sources that can be drawn on by people with magical talent. In fact, maybe being around the weirwoods is what sparked Thoros's magical ability. But the only kind of magic he knows is R'hllor, so that's what he interpreted it as. Necromancy and scrying are definitely linked with a variety of magic elements.

Yes.

I had to look up scrying. I like your argument. It helps explain why a red priestess like Melisandre can become a shadowbinder and why a shadowbinder like Quaithe isn't a red priestess.

Yes. ... I like the OP very much and I wish I'd found it earlier, when you were pleading for feedback ;)

My murky, ever-evolving thoughts :

Magic is the thing. Men invent gods to have something to attribute magic to (among other reasons, like explaining nature, etc.)

Since magic is alive and responsive, there are many, many ways it can be manipulated.

Once men have invented Gods , naturally they want to please them, thinking..so maybe you can bargain with gods... And men get into the mindset that says, if something has "worked" once (in their perception) it must be necessary to achieve desired results.. so the idea of sacrifice takes hold, and gets perpetuated , when there may be other ways.

I've often been stunned by the number of converts Mel seems to make among readers.

Of all the gods, "the old gods" have always seemed the most "real", to me. (I like the way GRRM always uses lower case when referring to them.) We can see that what men consider "the old gods" is in fact, the weirwoods and the greenseers, or singers, combined. But Bloodraven informs us that to the CoTF, it's the weirwoods that are the gods.. no doubt due to the trees' apparent immortality.

Their seeking to become one with their gods, results in something smacking of Buddhism and the Jungian collective unconscious, IMO.. except that it can be a collective consciousness through greenseers such as Bloodraven, and now, Bran.... Anyway, as I say, my ideas are still evolving.. still fluid..

But yes, I can see how BR may well have been at work in all you've suggested ... for a while now, I've been feeling we may see scions of very old bloodlines coming together to support Jon (or the effort that he represents)

There have really only been vague hints for some, but Jaime may just be one of the more traceable examples, so far. I get the feeling that the blood magic we've been shown is not the important kind..yes, it can work.. but ultimately, it's the magic that has been wedded to (embedded in?) the various old bloodlines converging that will have a far greater effect than any sacrifice.

[Mithras]

From the OP of one of my threads:

Penrose and Dondarrion

Garmund Hightower married Rhaena Targaryen and they had six unaccounted daughters. From these daughters, there seems a fairly good chance that some great or minor Lords acquired Targaryen blood through legitimate way in the female line. We know that Aelinor Penrose was a cousin of Aerys I and it is possible that House Penrose has one of these daughters as their ancestor.

Another likely possibility is the Dondarrions. Daeron II wed his son and heir Baelor to Jena Dondarrion. That means there is a fairly good chance that Jena had Targaryen ancestry too, possibly from those daughters of Rhaena.

In short, there is a fairly good chance that Beric had a drop of dragon blood.

Lothston

Lady Falena Stokeworth was Aegon’s first mistress. In 149 AC, she took the virginity of the fourteen-year-old prince. Their affair continued, until a Kingsguard knight found them together in bed in 151 AC. Prince Viserys then decided to mary Falena off to his master-at-arms, Lord Lucas Lothston, and convinced King Baelor I to name Lothston as the new Lord of Harrenhal, thereby removing Falena from court. Prince Aegon, however, continued to frequently visit Harrenhal for two more years, and it has been suggested that even after that, his visits to Falena continued.

While Aegon did not acknowledge any of Falena’s offspring as his own, it is rumored that at least one of Falena’s children, daughter Jeyne Lothston (Aegon’s eight mistress), was Aegon’s daughter.

There is a fairly good chance that Aegon IV fathered more children from Falena and passed them as Lothstons. After all, we are 99.9 % sure that Aegon IV was the biological father of Viserys Plumm. So, the wretch seemed to make a habit of it.

According to Ser Illifer, there was a Lord Lucas Lothston whose nickname was the Pander and he had a son called Manfryd o’ the Black Hood. It is not known whether this Lucas was the husband of Falena or this Manfryd was the Manfred Lothston who took part in the first Blackfyre Rebellion among the black dragon ranks but in the end betrayed Daemon.

But it makes sense to take the Pander as the husband of Falena. After all, this Lucas the Pander seemed to be pimping his wife and his daughter (who was actually Aegon IV’s own daughter) to the king. Timeline also allows his son Manfred to be the Manfryd o’ the Black Hood.

Therefore, the Lothstons up to and including Mad Danelle Lothston most probably had illegitimate Targaryen blood from Aegon IV himself.

Whent

The Lothstons were extinguished during Maekar’s reign (221-233) and the Whents received Harrenhal for their role in defeating the Lothstons. Since they kept the coat-of-arms of the Lothstons almost intact, it can be argued that the first Lord Whent (or his son) married a surviving Lothston female (or a close kin to the Lothstons) as it is the usual way of replacing an old House. After all, the Whents were knights in service to the Lothstons and we know that several household knights married a female of the House they served and started their own dynasty there.

Minisa Whent seems to be a daughter born from this Whent-Lothston union as she was old enough to be a wife to Hoster.

Tully?

If this theory is true, then Minisa’s children have a drop of dragon blood going back to Aegon IV through the bastard line. This also means that the Stark kids have dragon blood through Cat and Sweetrobin has dragon blood through Lysa.

How can we confirm all this stuff at this point of the story?

Garmund’s daughters or other legitimate Targaryen marriages unaccounted for should be in the history books and can be explained when the plot demands it. It is highly likely that we will hear a bit more about Viserys “Plumm” in TWoW. Bloodraven is in a perfect position to explain the illegitimate Targaryen blood in the Lothstons and the Whents, if this part of the theory is true.

How can it contribute to the plot?

Viserys “Plumm” already contributed to the plot and will keep doing it for a while longer. On this basis, one can argue that Ben Plumm can qualify as a dragonrider (though it takes more than a drop of dragon blood or two to tame a dragon as Quentyn can tell). Or if the descendants of Viserys Plumm married into the Lannisters, Tyrion might consider himself eligible to claim a dragon.

These possible drops of dragon blood might suggest new ideas about UnBeric and UnCat. The kiss of life might have worked on Beric and Cat because of the dragonlord blood they had as Lord Varys suggested.

And even before that, this theory might suggest new ideas about the strange phenomena that all the Stark kids have the gift. If they had two of the most magical bloodlines (Stark and Targaryen) in both sides, the chances of having the gift might be higher.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Yes.

Yes. ... I like the OP very much and I wish I'd found it earlier, when you were pleading for feedback ;)

My murky, ever-evolving thoughts :

Magic is the thing. Men invent gods to have something to attribute magic to (among other reasons, like explaining nature, etc.)

Since magic is alive and responsive, there are many, many ways it can be manipulated.

Once men have invented Gods , naturally they want to please them, thinking..so maybe you can bargain with gods... And men get into the mindset that says, if something has "worked" once (in their perception) it must be necessary to achieve desired results.. so the idea of sacrifice takes hold, and gets perpetuated , when there may be other ways.

I've often been stunned by the number of converts Mel seems to make among readers.

Of all the gods, "the old gods" have always seemed the most "real", to me. (I like the way GRRM always uses lower case when referring to them.) We can see that what men consider "the old gods" is in fact, the weirwoods and the greenseers, or singers, combined. But Bloodraven informs us that to the CoTF, it's the weirwoods that are the gods.. no doubt due to the trees' apparent immortality.

Their seeking to become one with their gods, results in something smacking of Buddhism and the Jungian collective unconscious, IMO.. except that it can be a collective consciousness through greenseers such as Bloodraven, and now, Bran.... Anyway, as I say, my ideas are still evolving.. still fluid..

But yes, I can see how BR may well have been at work in all you've suggested ... for a while now, I've been feeling we may see scions of very old bloodlines coming together to support Jon (or the effort that he represents)

There have really only been vague hints for some, but Jaime may just be one of the more traceable examples, so far. I get the feeling that the blood magic we've been shown is not the important kind..yes, it can work.. but ultimately, it's the magic that has been wedded to (embedded in?) the various old bloodlines converging that will have a far greater effect than any sacrifice.

Mine too.

[grufolo]

I agree that the hollow hill thing smells of children of the forest and old gods from far away.

I do not know about Jamie, i am not convinced.

But I was mostly interested in this also because i am starting to think that the line "There is only one true god" which is recurrent may just be true.

If that's the case it wouldn't make so much difference anymore if it was R'hllor or the old gods or the many-faced or the drowned one.

I'll try to gather all evidence and post here, but i have little time and even less love for writing long posts, so i am afraid it would not be a successful thread.

[Eddy of the Godswood]

From the OP of one of my threads:

[...]

Awesome work, I love the Stark - Targaryen magical bloodlines connection. On another note, would that increase Bran's chances of being a dragon rider?

[Mehmet Eren]

I also think different method of magic but if we look like coldhands not seem like lost his original characteristic properties but Lady stone seems like go extreme...For Bran being Dragon Rider first of all I accept ( ı didnt want to do it )JOn and Danny are primary and rest goes down hierarchy and Bran will skinchange dragon but not going to ride probably Jons dragon

[Mithras]

Awesome work, I love the Stark - Targaryen magical bloodlines connection. On another note, would that increase Bran's chances of being a dragon rider?

Maybe, but I do not think Bran will ride a dragon or warg into a dragon.

[Lost Melnibonean]

You know, I really don't know whether Jaime will become unJaime, but I have no doubt that Bloodraven is setting Jaime up to back the claim of Rhaegar's son, and that Jaime will believe Jon Connington. I have no doubt that he is Cersei's valonqar, and that Brienne is the one younger and more beautiful than Cersei.

Of course, I don't think Aegon could allow Jaime to enter his service. I think Jaime will be allowed to take the black as The Ned wanted and as this foreshadows...

The moonlight had silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloak to black.

Catelyn X, Game 63

Bloodraven is associated with the moon in Jon I, Dance 3. During a Jon/Ghost wolfdream, the moon calls to Ghost, "Snow." When Jon awakes, he realizes Jeor's raven has been calling to him, "Snow."

[the Greenleif Stark]

Like this...good job

[The Fattest Leech]

I'm posting here to track this thread. I like it. 

[TheSnowInWinterfell]

I have never been convinced that Thoros was able to bring Beric back through Rhllor. Even he doesn't know how he does it. Well done.

[briantw]

On 8/25/2014 at 0:04 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Notice the wording Beric uses when he knights Gendry...

I'd say that's a standard speech that any knight gives when they knight someone else, and not evidence that Beric worships the old gods.  Remember, Beric likely grew up believing in the seven, who are integral to knighthood.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, briantw said:

I'd say that's a standard speech that any knight gives when they knight someone else, and not evidence that Beric worships the old gods.  Remember, Beric likely grew up believing in the seven, who are integral to knighthood.  

I don't believe I ever said Beric worships the old gods. 

[hiemal]

You may well be on to something. The like between the BWB and the Hollow Hill has always seemed a false note to me if they are indeed servants of R'Hllor. Food for thought and I am always hungry.

[BalerionTheCat]

I've raised a point related to this thread multiple times before:

Everyone assumes Melisandre will resurrect Jon because Thoros did it in the Riverlands. But Thoros is a failed priest, he gave no sacrifice, not once in 7 resurrections. And I have yet to see the purpose of R'hllor in the Riverlands. So I'm not convinced R'hllor was behind the Riverlands resurrections.

I'd rather see the real Death God: The Stranger of the Seven, the Lion of Night, the god of the Others, the Great Other. They are all the same, according to the Faceless Men. Beric and Stoneheart could be doing what the Seven would do: judging and punishing. Cat herself is looking like a Silent Sister:

A trestle table had been set up across the cave, in a cleft in the rock. Behind it sat a woman all in grey, cloaked and hooded. In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. She was studying it, her fingers stroking the blades as if to test their sharpness. Her eyes glimmered under her hood.
Grey was the color of the silent sisters, the handmaidens of the Stranger. Brienne felt a shiver climb her spine. Stoneheart.

Like LSH, the silent sisters never speak. And we had a previous meeting between Cat and Silent sisters:

But outside her chambers she found Utherydes Wayn waiting with two women clad in grey, their faces cowled save for their eyes. Catelyn knew at once why they were here.

I believe Stoneheart has been resurrected by the Stranger and is doing his will.