World of Ice and Fire and Genealogy

[MaesterMan]

Hello, Forum from a Forum-Newbie,

As a genealogist for many years, I really look forward to AWOIAF for the genealogy reveals.

Like many others, I do want to know who the wives of Daeron I, Viserys II, Maekar I, and Aegon V were, and I'm particularly interested in:

The children of Jaeherys I and Alysanne (Aemon, Baelon, Daella, Saera, and the five as yet unrevealed) and how they impact the ancestry of various protagonists in ASOIAF. I am grateful to the recent posts by Lord Varys and Atarianello about GRRM's reading at LondonCon and the children of Aerys I. What particularly struck me there was that Alyssa Velaryon, wife (and probably 2nd cousin?) of Aerys I, was no shrinking violet (daring to mock Maegor the Cruel) and that the Targaryens probably owe the survival of their dynasty to her, if she kept Jaeherys and Alysanne alive through the Maegor years until they could rule themselves (and maybe served as their initial Regent?). The story of how the Velaryons went from being so prominent under the first Targarayens to their relative obscurity at the time of ASOIAF is probably an interesting tale, too.

The alleged twin daughters of Aerys and Alyssa's married eldest children Rhaena and Aegon--knowing how GRRM loves English medieval history--I've wondered if these girls will end up being GRRM's version of "The Princes in the Tower" with Maegor a sort of Richard III figure?

The marriages and children of Elaena Targaryen: It's a testament to the strength of GRRM's ability with characterization that from one brief "So Spake Martin" entry and from one accompanying excellent portrait by the artist Amoka (I hope that there are tons of Amoka-done Targaryen portraits in AWOIAF, especially of Aemon the Dragonknight, of Daeron II's wife Myriah and their children, and of Aegon V's children and siblings) that Elaena is such an interesting historical character--not as "id" as her sister Daena, not as "superego" as her sister Rhaena, but somewhere in the middle--defiant but behind the scenes, balanced, with an interesting look and a very complicated, independent love life I know Ossifer Plumm has been vetted as a possible husband; I'm not sure who else, and I'm not clear if she had seven children (2 by Alyn Velaryon and 5 by her 3 husbands) or nine children (2 by Alyn and 7 by her husbands), as I've seen comments about "seven children" that imply all legitimate or a mix of legit and spurious. Most of the other possible Targaryen descents of noble houses would seem to come from her, and it sounds like she lived to a great age, so it will be interesting to see whose reigns she lived to see.

The children of Aegon V--who are these boys who married for love and who were their wives, and did Aegon have any other daughters besides Rhaelle, later Baratheon?

I know it's not happening, per other posts, but family trees of the Velaryons (so entwined with the Targs), the Baratheons (ditto), and the Arryns and Hightowers would be of particular interest.

I also hope that the final printed family trees of Lannister, Stark, and Targaryen have dates--the pre-publication version of the Stark tree published in earlier threads in this Forum, while fascinating, is hard to parse out and fully comprehend without dates. And I wish GRRM would publish "Fire and Blood" sooner than later, because I am such a history nerd. But I guess the AWOIAF will have to suffice for now.

Thanks for letting an (aging!) fanboy geek post some thoughts (and if anyone has any ideas (or cool spoilers you think you've figured out), thanks for same. :)

[Lord Varys]

Yes, Alyssa must have been cool. The tidbit that she was the one mocking Maegor came as a juicy surprise. Unfortunately we don't know if she also became a dragonrider. Technically she could have tried to take one of the six (and later eight) hatchlings on Dragonstone, since she had Targaryen blood.

Jaehaerys ascended to the Iron Throne in 48 at the age of 14, which means that technically there would have been a Regency from 48-50, until Jaehaerys came of age. If that's the case - and Jaehaerys did not rule in his own right despite his age, as Daeron I did -, and if Queen Alyssa survived the reign of Maegor the Cruel (which is a big if), it is very likely that she served as the first (and only) Queen Regent of Westeros prior to Cersei Lannister.

I understood the tidbit on Elaena that she gave birth to seven children in total - if seven is enough for the gods, it's enough for me, too. That means two bastards, Jon and Jeyne Waters, most likely before she was married to her first husband (considering the age of Alyn Velaryon). Viserys Plumm, possibly her only son by Lord Ossifer (at least de iure), leaving four children to be fathered by her two later husbands.

[Arataniello]

ISTR that there was a comment made at some point that there were "one or two Targaryens" amongst Maegor's brides.

If one of those was Rhaena Targaryen (his half-niece, daughter of Aenys, wife of Aegon), then maybe one of Rhaena's twin daughters was another Targ bride of Maegor.

My reasoning being that there simply aren't many other candidates for another Maegor Targ bride -

- Aenys' sisters appear to have disappeared between Bubonicon last year and WorldCon this year;

- all of Aenys' daughters are accounted for, Rhaena as above, Alysanne married Jaeherys; Vaella died in the cradle.

The only other possibility is a descendant of someone from "further up" the Targ family tree. Of course, the "one or two Targ brides for Maegor" situation may now be different, in much the same way as Aenys' sisters have disappeared in the past year.

[Arataniello]

The children of Aegon V--who are these boys who married for love and who were their wives, and did Aegon have any other daughters besides Rhaelle, later Baratheon?

We know the names of two of the sons. Duncan; Duncan the Small; Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies; and Jaeherys, the Old King.

The third son we only learned about in aDwD and his name is as yet unknown.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I will be both pleasantly surprised and mildly disappointed if we find out about Egg's sons and their wives in aWoIaF, as I think that info is very important to the aSoIaF storyline. I'm betting that part of the Targ family tree will be inkblotted.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

ISTR that there was a comment made at some point that there were "one or two Targaryens" amongst Maegor's brides.

If one of those was Rhaena Targaryen (his half-niece, daughter of Aenys, wife of Aegon), then maybe one of Rhaena's twin daughters was another Targ bride of Maegor.

My reasoning being that there simply aren't many other candidates for another Maegor Targ bride -

- Aenys' sisters appear to have disappeared between Bubonicon last year and WorldCon this year;

- all of Aenys' daughters are accounted for, Rhaena as above, Alysanne married Jaeherys; Vaella died in the cradle.

The only other possibility is a descendant of someone from "further up" the Targ family tree. Of course, the "one or two Targ brides for Maegor" situation may now be different, in much the same way as Aenys' sisters have disappeared in the past year.

With the Fire and Blood reading from a week or two past, we learn that Rhaena and Aegon got married in 41AC. With Aegon's death seemingly early in Maegor's reign, Rhaena's daughters would be small children by the time she married Maegor. If Maegor indeed married one of the daughters, it can't have been a marriage that would hold up legally.. Unconsumated, that is.

I think it is unlikely that Maegor would marry a small child, because he needed heirs, and a girl as young as Rhaena's children would have been, wouldn't be able to give Maegor an heir.

So I'm guessing that the two Targaryen brides are now one Targaryen bride in the final version..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I know it's not happening, per other posts, but family trees of the Velaryons (so entwined with the Targs), the Baratheons (ditto), and the Arryns and Hightowers would be of particular interest.

I also hope that the final printed family trees of Lannister, Stark, and Targaryen have dates--the pre-publication version of the Stark tree published in earlier threads in this Forum, while fascinating, is hard to parse out and fully comprehend without dates. And I wish GRRM would publish "Fire and Blood" sooner than later, because I am such a history nerd. But I guess the AWOIAF will have to suffice for now.

Where no family trees are, there will be at least some text. So perhaps we will be able to puzzle together some (parts of the) family trees that way.

Same for the dates. If they are not in the family trees (perhaps not, as that would become rather crowded), they most likely will be in the text, I'm guessing

[Arataniello]

With the Fire and Blood reading from a week or two past, we learn that Rhaena and Aegon got married in 41AC. With Aegon's death seemingly early in Maegor's reign, Rhaena's daughters would be small children by the time she married Maegor. If Maegor indeed married one of the daughters, it can't have been a marriage that would hold up legally.. Unconsumated, that is.

I think it is unlikely that Maegor would marry a small child, because he needed heirs, and a girl as young as Rhaena's children would have been, wouldn't be able to give Maegor an heir.

So I'm guessing that the two Targaryen brides are now one Targaryen bride in the final version..

I didn't have the dates in front of me when I posted, but you are correct. Maegor died in AC48; the children of Aegon and Rhaena would therefore be seven years old at the oldest, and thus impossible as candidates for Targ wives of Maegor.

I agree that the Targ count in the Maegor Marriage Medley is likely now down to one.

[RumHam]

We know the names of two of the sons. Duncan; Duncan the Small; Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies; and Jaeherys, the Old King.

The third son we only learned about in aDwD and his name is as yet unknown.

Minor correction, Egg's son was Jaehaerys II. The Old King was Jaehaerys I. We don't have a sobriquet for Jaehaerys II, possibly because his reign was so short.

[Maia]

With Aegon's death seemingly early in Maegor's reign, Rhaena's daughters would be small children by the time she married Maegor. If Maegor indeed married one of the daughters, it can't have been a marriage that would hold up legally.. Unconsumated, that is.

It would be a way to weaken/neutralize claims of Aenys's younger children. We have seen babes being married off before. Sure, these marriages can be set aside if not consummated at some point - and I can only hope that consummation before the poor girl(s) (if you are practicing polygamy in grand style, why not marry both of them?) has even flowered wouldn't count either!

But anyway, age of the bride(s) wouldn't make it illegal per se. Being Xth polygamous wife(s) of Maegor would, OTOH. At least young age might have hopefully protected the poor child(ren) from being decapitated for failing to provide Maegor with heirs!