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Addressing Stark bias: Part 2


Modelex

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Okay so the last thread didn't go as I'd hoped. It devolved completely into a discussion of Tywin Lannister which isn't what I wanted at all. I guess I'm going to have to structure the discussion more carefully



What I wanted was to get people to address their own Stark bias, and by that I mean when they are biased towards the Starks in face of the facts. I feel Theon would be a good starting point. The misconceptions surrounding his treatment, position, and anxiety as a Stark hostage (not "honored guest", hostage) is driven mainly by a rosy view of Winterfell. Why do people for example think that everyone in Winterfell loved Theon when the evidence is clearly against that? Why do people think Balon was at fault for Theon's imprisonment when Theon was taken against all choice? Or why do people think Ned would never have executed him in the first place? People mischaracterize these issues because of the root phenemonon of Stark bias



Also, why do people believe that Ned is the best Lord for his people that we see in the series? There isn't any evidence to suggest that Tywin for example, inspired less loyalty than he did. And there is nothing that indicates he was well loved other than by a select few factions. Why then do people say he is the greatest Lord of all time? Or that Lannisters inspire less loyalty and following than the Starks do, when nothing suggests this at all? Not to veer into Tywin too much (since that clearly isn't a good idea) but it is worth thinking about



And Arya's murder of Dareon is another example of Stark bias in action. I have seen this justified several times as Arya "carrying out Stark justice"? That is very concerning that people think she has a carte blanche to kill people who have done her no wrong because of some vague entitlement as a Stark. Not to mention she is not even Lord of Winterfell nor is she even in Westeros for her to act in this way. Call it what it was; cold-blooded and harsh



And Stark bias extends to the general perception of the North as well. That Northmen are all more "honorable" in their conduct, with regards to how they carry out war and that they aren't "scheming snakes" like the people in the south. It is interesting that this view can't be shaken off by the loads of textual evidence that suggest otherwise. What is honorable or good about killing people, baking them into foodstuffs and feeding them to their own family? I don't think Ned would approve of that



And the hot button issue of the Freys, thinking for example that they should be completely exterminated down to the women and children. Is that really a fair and requisite response to the Red Wedding? I don't think Robb would want children killed in his name. Equal or even worse things than the Red Wedding happen but readers don't want such an extreme punishment for them.



These are just some quick examples of where Stark bias leaks through that I have witnessed from reading posts. Maybe we can start looking at things more objectively in the future, that's what I hope for at least.

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So......this is about Stark bias and one of the points you make is how Tywin is better.






Also Hello dream seems like we can have more fun lol.




By the way how are Frey-pies blamed on the Starks?Also the punishment for breaking guest right seems to be getting om nom nomed.


Rat Cook/The Men at Crasters Keep/Frey's.So blame the gods for having an amazing sense of humor.


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Starting with Theon: it's stated he wasn't loved and I don't think you will find people that will argue otherwise but it's also stated he wasn't mistreated either. He was a highborn hostage and treated as befit his station. People will argue the psychological aspects of his upbringing basically by ignoring all the good and hyping up all the bad (what little there is). I don't blame the Starks for Theon's situation.

Ned was a good Lord by all accounts. The only problem I have with his rule is that he let the Boltons escape his attention. I consider this a plot hole more than anything so it's hard for me to hold Ned accountable but I can't overlook it either.

Ned also had a lot on his plate: relatives dead, brother left to the Wall, a dark secret to be kept, newly made lord of Winterfell. Newly married and already father to a son and a "bastard". Then Greyjoy rebels and he becomes Theon's caretaker too. He had so many responsibilities and he managed to handle then all almost all on his own. Give the man a break.

I don't care that Arya killed Daeron because he was a horrible person, him being a deserter is last on the list of reasons why I don't care.

Out of all the families, the Starks seem to be the most decent so...

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Oh jesus. Bias? Because we see some characters as better than others? That's how the story is written. It's not bias to say 'hey, these people are pretty good people, and these aren't'. No one is saying that any character is perfect, and of course the Starks have made mistakes and done some bad things, as well. But that doesn't put them on the same tier as the Lannisters, who have betrayed, murdered and swindled their way into a position of extreme power. I'm not about to address 'Theon', as that's a dead end argument around here. But the Starks have their strengths and weaknesses, but the fact of the matter is that the story revolves around them and has done so from the very beginning. You might as well ask people why they favor characters like Jean Valjean over Javert...the story is written where one is the protagonist and the other is not.

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By the way you all know you would eat a Frey-pie.The description that is given with the golden brown flakey crust and all of the yummy fillings sounds amazing to me.Add in the fact that revenge is a dish best served pipping hot in pie and I am sold.Hell if Manderly told me I would have like 4 helpings and want the recipe for when we get to the Twins.


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You might be happier with some group therapy discussion thing. The fact is that your perception of certain parts of ASoIaF is at odds with the perception of larger groups of other people on these forums. That these differences are all caused by single root cause "Stark bias" is dubious at best. It makes things neat for you, but that's not particularly convincing. More likely, different people disagree with you on different issues for different reasons. Plus, of course, the notion of "Stark bias" runs into the problem that the Starks are by and large morally superior, for which we can only blame GRRM. I don't see how one could tease that apart: When "good" people do something ambiguous it is more likely to be motivated by "good" reasons than when bad people do the same ambiguous thing. That's not bias, that's sanity. Hannibal Lector and the Pope inviting you for dinner is not the same thing. (Maybe to people who have no concept of probability it is.)

Be that as it may, assuming there is such a thing as "Stark bias", what improvement does that bring to discussions? None I can see. You will have a far better chance of getting someone to agree they're biased towards Arya than getting them to agree that they have a global "pro Stark" bias across several issues. That is, assuming you get them to agree to any bias at all, because that implies you're right and they're wrong instead of the both of you having different perspectives. Plus, globally, you'd just create another tendentious notion that of course would be abused, by people having biases of their own and trying to divert attention away from them.

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Oh jesus. Bias? Because we see some characters as better than others? That's how the story is written. It's not bias to say 'hey, these people are pretty good people, and these aren't'. No one is saying that any character is perfect, and of course the Starks have made mistakes and done some bad things, as well. But that doesn't put them on the same tier as the Lannisters, who have betrayed, murdered and swindled their way into a position of extreme power. I'm not about to address 'Theon', as that's a dead end argument around here. But the Starks have their strengths and weaknesses, but the fact of the matter is that the story revolves around them and has done so from the very beginning. You might as well ask people why they favor characters like Jean Valjean over Javert...the story is written where one is the protagonist and the other is not.

Exactly... how story was written... mostly out of Stark perspective, but that is the point to read between the lines because those characters aren't objective, so you need to patch and intrpret the story.

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It's hard not to be biased against the Starks when you have such evil people pitted against them.

Yeah they made mistakes and messed up but they're not greedy and evil like the Lannisters, they are not assholes like the Greyjoys, they don't fight or abandon their family in an effort to sit on a ugly chair like the Baratheons, they don't abuse their children like Tywin and Tarly, they love them and instead encourage them like Ned/Cat. They don't want to play the stupid game of thrones like the Tyrells. They don't hold on to grudges and let their hate become bitter like Lysa.

The Starks are many things good and bad who have done good and bad things yet they in a harsh society are good people who is tragic in what has befallen them.

How do I not be biased towards Ned Stark who tried to protect a evil woman and her children when his child almost died because if said woman.

How am I not biased towards Jon when he tried to help the Wildlings displaying the most humane reaction in the book towards human life.

There're others examples but the Starks are good people of course I'm biased.

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By the way you all know you would eat a Frey-pie.The description that is given with the golden brown flakey crust and all of the yummy fillings sounds amazing to me.Add in the fact that revenge is a dish best served pipping hot in pie and I am sold.Hell if Manderly told me I would have like 4 helpings and want the recipe for when we get to the Twins.

Speak for yourself. I find Manderleys presumed murder troubling, but it might have been a fair fight and he has a legitimate grievance to repay in kind (or, hopefully, slightly better than the RW). But having them baked into pie is digusting, and the thought that he would eat the pies himself knowing what they contain makes me retch (unless I imagine it in a Disneyfied cartoon version, which works for me because Manderley is a bit cartoonish. But which is of course a variant of denial). I hope there's some cosmic justice coming for Manderley for that. (assuming of course Frey pies are real and Manderley isn't executing the biggest psyop in Westerosi history while he has them locked up somewhere)
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