Pod The Impaler Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 What I wanted was to get people to address their own Stark bias, and by that I mean when they are biased towards the Starks in face of the facts. The fact is the Starks are AWESOME ! :commie: :fencing: :D [/it is known] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Exactly... how story was written... mostly out of Stark perspective, but that is the point to read between the lines because those characters aren't objective, so you need to patch and intrpret the story. Oh, I agree. I wouldn't say that they are perfect in the slightest. In fact, I would say that they've all made many mistakes...some small, some large and some grievous. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that any Stark character was perfect. Jon Snow may be my favorite character, but I have most definitely ripped his character up for some of the stupid decisions he's made or because of the way he acted about something. I've even criticized Martin for treating Jon too favorably at some points in the story. I only think someone is biased when they refuse to admit the good AND the bad in a character. But I don't think that applies to just the Stark characters...I've seen many people stubbornly refuse to admit the foibles in many of the other characters, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 You might be happier with some group therapy discussion thing. The fact is that your perception of certain parts of ASoIaF is at odds with the perception of larger groups of other people on these forums. That these differences are all caused by single root cause "Stark bias" is dubious at best. It makes things neat for you, but that's not particularly convincing. More likely, different people disagree with you on different issues for different reasons. Plus, of course, the notion of "Stark bias" runs into the problem that the Starks are by and large morally superior, for which we can only blame GRRM. I don't see how one could tease that apart: When "good" people do something ambiguous it is more likely to be motivated by "good" reasons than when bad people do the same ambiguous thing. That's not bias, that's sanity. Hannibal Lector and the Pope inviting you for dinner is not the same thing. (Maybe to people who have no concept of probability it is.)Be that as it may, assuming there is such a thing as "Stark bias", what improvement does that bring to discussions? None I can see. You will have a far better chance of getting someone to agree they're biased towards Arya than getting them to agree that they have a global "pro Stark" bias across several issues. That is, assuming you get them to agree to any bias at all, because that implies you're right and they're wrong instead of the both of you having different perspectives. Plus, globally, you'd just create another tendentious notion that of course would be abused, by people having biases of their own and trying to divert attention away from them. Someone give this guy a raise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Vinegar Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 I mean I don't really even like the Starks. The only one I really care for is Sansa. I think the thing is that everyone is usually biased towards their fave characters and houses, and the Starks are by and large the most widely-held favorite house. So of course there's gonna be more accessible instances of bias toward the Starks happening more frequently here due to that. I chalk that up more to folks rooting for their favorite family than any insidious Stark bias among the readership as a whole. I mean, I like the Martells, they're my favorites, so I'm totally biased in favor of them. Doesn't mean I can't see them and their actions more objectively if I stop and think about it for a little. Same with Stark fans. The ONLY thing that gets me is when folks fail to differentiate between the moral tone of the House Paramount of a region and the rest of the people in that region. The idea that Northerners as a group are x amount more honorable than the rest of Westeros because they have an notably honorable Lord Paramount is just ridiculous. That being said, though, I have no idea if that is a falsehood that's widespread and that people actually subscribe to or if it's just an artifact of this discussion, a straw man set up to more easily oppose Stark fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bastard Snow Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Speak for yourself. I find Manderleys presumed murder troubling, but it might have been a fair fight and he has a legitimate grievance to repay in kind (or, hopefully, slightly better than the RW). But having them baked into pie is digusting, and the thought that he would eat the pies himself knowing what they contain makes me retch (unless I imagine it in a Disneyfied cartoon version, which works for me because Manderley is a bit cartoonish. But which is of course a variant of denial). I hope there's some cosmic justice coming for Manderley for that. (assuming of course Frey pies are real and Manderley isn't executing the biggest psyop in Westerosi history while he has them locked up somewhere) Its the punishment for breaking guest right.Manderly will not get any punishment as its what happens to those that break the most sacred of laws. The men at Crasters Keep got killed and eaten for breaking guest right.As did the Rat Cook (turned into a rat and forced to eat his own children) so like I said getting eaten/eating your family seems to be the normal punishment Also Manderly does not strike me as the type to bluff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 I don't get what your goal is. What is this thread supposed to achieve? Another discussion on how the Starks are just like the Lannisters vs the Starks are the best people? Oh but here's a thought on Manderly and his Frey pies. I fist pumped so much when Tywin told Jaime that Vargo Hoat is going to pay for his deeds. Why? It's because of what he did to Jaime & Brienne and to the Riverlands. Then i read what the Mountain did to him and i was disgusted. Do i think that Tywin and Gregor are honorable or "good" due to this? Hell no. The exact same thing applies to the fat cannibal. The North remembers is awesome, so were all his comments about/to the Freys. I was also happy that the Freys were getting some of their own medicine but it's still disgusting. Does that make Manderly honorable or "good"? Again, hell no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UVA Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 You might be happier with some group therapy discussion thing. The fact is that your perception of certain parts of ASoIaF is at odds with the perception of larger groups of other people on these forums. That these differences are all caused by single root cause "Stark bias" is dubious at best. It makes things neat for you, but that's not particularly convincing. More likely, different people disagree with you on different issues for different reasons. Plus, of course, the notion of "Stark bias" runs into the problem that the Starks are by and large morally superior, for which we can only blame GRRM. I don't see how one could tease that apart: When "good" people do something ambiguous it is more likely to be motivated by "good" reasons than when bad people do the same ambiguous thing. That's not bias, that's sanity. Hannibal Lector and the Pope inviting you for dinner is not the same thing. (Maybe to people who have no concept of probability it is.)Be that as it may, assuming there is such a thing as "Stark bias", what improvement does that bring to discussions? None I can see. You will have a far better chance of getting someone to agree they're biased towards Arya than getting them to agree that they have a global "pro Stark" bias across several issues. That is, assuming you get them to agree to any bias at all, because that implies you're right and they're wrong instead of the both of you having different perspectives. Plus, globally, you'd just create another tendentious notion that of course would be abused, by people having biases of their own and trying to divert attention away from them. Someone give this guy a raise. Yea, just when I'd lost faith in the forum with these recent OPs whose sole purpose seems to only want to provoke and not debate, cxvb is the light in the darkness. The ONLY thing that gets me is when folks fail to differentiate between the moral tone of the House Paramount of a region and the rest of the people in that region. The idea that Northerners as a group are x amount more honorable than the rest of Westeros because they have an notably honorable Lord Paramount is just ridiculous. That being said, though, I have no idea if that is a falsehood that's widespread and that people actually subscribe to or if it's just an artifact of this discussion, a straw man set up to more easily oppose Stark fans. It's an odd expectation to think that all Northerners must embody the Stark ethos (or that the Westermen with House Lannister, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 There is a strong Stark bias. One of the noticeable cases is Theon's situation. However, Ned Stark was a great Lord of the North as shown by their continued dedication to him even years after his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 The Freys deserved what Manderly did to them and than some. Manderly should have told the other Freys how he butchered their family and feed them to them. I cheered when he did this it couldn't happen to a more deserving house of murderers besides the Lannisters. Manderly has every right to his vengeance these animals murdered his son and men than tried blaming Robb and than they lie under his roof. I condone everything that's done to the Freys. This isn't my Stark bias it's my complete and unrelenting hatred of the Freys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Vinegar Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 It's an odd expectation to think that all Northerners must embody the Stark ethos (or that the Westermen with House Lannister, etc. Right? It doesn't make any sense. It'd like me saying all Dornishmen have the same temperament as Doran Martell, which I am positive NO one on this forum would let slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 By the way how are Frey-pies blamed on the Starks? Don't you see? The Starks were so idiots that they got themselves killed by everybody else. It's not like others kill them. They provoke them into killing them. The Freys HAD to kill them. And because they were weak, not their former bannermen need to avenge them or finds knew ways to improve their diets because the Stark left the North before the winter and they don't have anything to eat. ANYTHING TO EAT. Duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nastydream Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 So......this is about Stark bias and one of the points you make is how Tywin is better. Also Hello dream seems like we can have more fun lol. By the way how are Frey-pies blamed on the Starks?Also the punishment for breaking guest right seems to be getting om nom nomed. Rat Cook/The Men at Crasters Keep/Frey's.So blame the gods for having an amazing sense of humor. American Frey-Pie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 American Frey-Pie If you've just implied what i think you implied, i'll be over here, having a mental breakdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 There is a strong Stark bias. Indeed. /thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nastydream Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 If you've just implied what i think you implied, i'll be over here, having a mental breakdown :devil: @bastardsnow http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/03/78/3a/03783a85f4eb4c1485e2d6d422d0438e.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 There is a strong Stark bias. One of the noticeable cases is Theon's situation. However, Ned Stark was a great Lord of the North as shown by their continued dedication to him even years after his death.That's because you're biased in favor of Theon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nastydream Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 That's because you're biased in favor of Theon. biaseption Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equilibrium Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 American Frey-Pie Best post ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigo Sand Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 I suppose I have got a 'Stark bias', and Martell, and Reed for that matter as well. That doesn't mean I think the characters are 'perfect' whatever that might mean, but I can identify with them more than some of the others and accept any flawed decisions that they make for what they are. But I also see the Starks as, effectively, as close to protagonists as anyone gets in the books - so we are perhaps meant to lean towards them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 It's an odd expectation to think that all Northerners must embody the Stark ethos (or that the Westermen with House Lannister, etc.Or the most common and blatant example: That the words of House Greyjoy somehow means nobody farms or even works on the II. :bang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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