Addressing Stark bias: Part 2

[Dornish Vinegar]

You cannot judge them for hings they haven't done yet. And he waited until his chances for winning were better partially because he knew that Tywin paid his debts, or that he knew that the smallfolk would have to pay for a lost war in general.

I'll leave the rest to the Martell fans. :)

:) I have my own thoughts on the matter but I'll sit this one out, I'm taking nastydream's lead. Ideally this'd be a debate between folks whose favorite houses are neither Stark nor Martell to avoid bias...

[John Doe]

Except the only reason he kept them out of the war was so that he could throw them into another war later on so....ya personal desires winning our for him there too

You cannot judge them for hings they haven't done yet. And he waited until his chances for winning were better partially because he knew that Tywin paid his debts, or that he knew that the smallfolk would have to pay for a lost war in general.

[sj4iy]

I agree, the story used to revolve around the Starks. Right now... eh, not so much. But with rumors of "the wolves will return" I'm excited for Rickon, Bran, and Sansa (not Arya if she becomes a Faceless Man).

Well, to me, the story lost something when it stopped revolving around the Starks. I will be thrilled if the story goes back to focus on the original 6 from the first book instead of being all over the place.

[Lee-Sensei]

Point proven.

Oh, and I deleted the rest of your post because it had nothing to do with the Theon comment. That was the only thing I wanted to address.

How was your point proven? Why does a hostage owe his captors? I'm far less biased than you.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That's what Robb was doing anything. At the very least, they haven't done anything to make them morally inferior to the Starks at this point.

Well, the pact to marry Viserys to Arianne was dangerous. If Robert had found out, he would have asked for the Martells' heads and declared war against them. He also sent Quentyn to Dany, for the same reasons. While he was misinformed about the Throne watching them, it could have been turned out to be true, and a whole float could have been sent after Quentyn, and figure out quite easily what his intentions were.

Just because Doran didn't raised banners against Robert, literally, he was moving his pieces to do it at some point.

You cannot judge them for hings they haven't done yet. And he waited until his chances for winning were better partially because he knew that Tywin paid his debts, or that he knew that the smallfolk would have to pay for a lost war in general

Doran has done things. See above.

Again, just because Doran could have waited for a good chance to win, that doesn't mean he's, in fact, going to win.

Except the only reason he kept them out of the war was so that he could throw them into another war later on so....ya personal desires winning our for him there too

:agree:

[Patriam1066]

From my perspective, while the Starks have many faults, I identify with their motivations. Ned is an obstinate, rigid, stubborn ass hole whose devotion to honor gets him killed. But when that happens, even though he brought a lot of it on himself, should I favor Varys, Cersei, Janos Slynt, Jaime, or Baelish? Presented with no real alternatives, I find myself siding with the Starks. That doesn't mean that I don't like Kevan or Tyrion Lannister (I do), or that I don't find Jaime's arc post stump extremely engaging. Despite their myriad flaws, I still find the Starks, as a group, to be the group I'd hope became my leaders. On an individual level, I think there are better choices.

[Frey Pie]

For the love of god yer thesis was Robb being selfish going to war and Doran thinking about his people. This is untrue because we know Doran is only waiting. Unless you think Dany and Aegon will go unsupported by Dorne because Doran will think of what's good for his people. Doran is just as much a slave to his desire for vengeance as Robb was

[Frey Pie]

And a few of the Martells seem a bit dark. Oberyn was most definitely no Saint and Arianna enjoys messing about in dangerous politics

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And a few of the Martells seem a bit dark. Oberyn was most definitely no Saint and Arianna enjoys messing about in dangerous politics

Also the Sand Snakes wanting to kill Tommen in retribution of the death of their father.

Not only that. The Sand Snakes actually want war and blood.

[Lee-Sensei]

Well, the pact to marry Viserys to Arianne was dangerous. If Robert had found out, he would have asked for the Martells' heads and declared war against them. He also sent Quentyn to Dany, for the same reasons. While he was misinformed about the Throne watching them, it could have been turned out to be true, and a whole float could have been sent after Quentyn, and figure out quite easily what his intentions were.

That's true, but it still doesn't make them morally inferior to the Starks. Both of them wanted War. Doran just waited. So far as we know they don't have anything comparable to the Iron Born's Old Way an they don't employ people like Gregor Clegane. They're comparable to the Starks.

[Patriam1066]

For the love of god yer thesis was Robb being selfish going to war and Doran thinking about his people. This is untrue because we know Doran is only waiting. Unless you think Dany and Aegon will go unsupported by Dorne because Doran will think of what's good for his people. Doran is just as much a slave to his desire for vengeance as Robb was

Couldn't agree more... I thought Doran's entire motivation was revenge.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That's true, but it still doesn't make them morally inferior to the Starks. Both of them wanted War. Doran just waited. So far as we know they don't have anything comparable to the Iron Born's Old Way an they don't employ people like Gregor Clegane. They're comparable to the Starks.

I wasn't trying to make sound as I thought they were better or worst. I agree with you, they're pretty much in the same level. Although the situations were a bit different. Robb went South after his father's imprisonment because that's an expected move for a Lord (like Mace taking his men to KL after the arrest of Marg). Doran and the Martells, otoh, were offended by the Lannisters and they had all the reasons in the world to want revenge and justice, in the same way Robb wanted justice for his father's death, the murder of his men in KL and his sisters being hostages. Being both Lords, they're decisions have little to do with morality, because they are expected to act in the way they did. If any other lord can go and kill any member of their family, that sends the message of them being actually weak, and put their people in a vulnerable position.

[John Doe]

Robb went South after his father's imprisonment because that's an expected move for a Lord (like Mace taking his men to KL after the arrest of Marg).

So you agree that Cat gave Tywin a reason for going to war because of Tyrion's emprisonment? :)

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

I don't think that Robb's sole motivation is revenge. He recognizes the threat Joffrey/Tywin in particular represents to his family and the North. Bending the knee to an unjust ruler subjects your vassals to injustice.

But I also have no doubt vengeance was a big part of his motivation as well.

[A Bastard Snow]

:devil:

@bastardsnow

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/03/78/3a/03783a85f4eb4c1485e2d6d422d0438e.jpg

LOL.

That part was the best.

Ygritte:That thing you did with your mouth was awsome

Jon:Shush keep it down you want everyone to hear?

Ygritte:No one is going to hear *Walks Away*

Tormund:Everyone heard.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So you agree that Cat gave Tywin a reason for going to war because of Tyrion's emprisonment? :)

Absolutely not.

Did you see Mace Tyrell pillaging and sacking King's Landing or the Great Sept after Margaery was arrested? Did Rickard Stark torched King's Landing and the Red Keep after Aerys took Brandon as prisoner?

If we're going to start with "Tywin was justified", he wasn't. He wasn't wrong to be mad, but that didn't entitled to what he did. The right course of action was sending men to the Vale and offer himself as his champion, like Rickard did when Brandon was judged by the King.

[sj4iy]

:devil:

@bastardsnow

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/03/78/3a/03783a85f4eb4c1485e2d6d422d0438e.jpg

LMAO!

[RoamingRonin]

How was your point proven? Why does a hostage owe his captors? I'm far less biased than you.

A hostage doesn't owe his captors anything. This doesn't excuse Theon's actions after Robb released him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

:devil:

@bastardsnow

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/03/78/3a/03783a85f4eb4c1485e2d6d422d0438e.jpg

...and then, the wilding raids started to steal and kidnap Southern men.

[LordStoneheart]

I've stayed away from this thread and the first but the fact that it needs a second part just reconfirms what I first thought of it. It's just a way to ask people "why don't you hate the Starks like I do?" and "who's with me?!?!?!" Basically, attention seeking. You have an anti-Stark bias. Let's address that.

Objective? Please. This was not objective, nor was this or this.

Very few of us have some big hidden agenda to white wash the Starks. But I know of at least one who wants to character assassinate them with bullshit threads.

Oh jesus. Bias? Because we see some characters as better than others? That's how the story is written. It's not bias to say 'hey, these people are pretty good people, and these aren't'. No one is saying that any character is perfect, and of course the Starks have made mistakes and done some bad things, as well. But that doesn't put them on the same tier as the Lannisters, who have betrayed, murdered and swindled their way into a position of extreme power. I'm not about to address 'Theon', as that's a dead end argument around here. But the Starks have their strengths and weaknesses, but the fact of the matter is that the story revolves around them and has done so from the very beginning. You might as well ask people why they favor characters like Jean Valjean over Javert...the story is written where one is the protagonist and the other is not.

Spot on, sj.