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R+L=J v99


davos

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The brother is the best friend of the Usurper who, as far as the KG know, thinks that they are holding his sister hostage! "No no lord Eddard. Let us explain..you see...Lyanna WANTED this." And the screaming: she wasn't screaming. Lyanna never calls him "Eddard!" She always called him Ned. That's not Lyanna in the dream screaming, that's the present day person trying to wake Ned up.

So it's okay to decide on their own to kill her beloved brother under her window if she wasn't screaming? That's treating her just fine?

The brother is the best friend of the Usurper who, as far as the KG know, thinks that they are holding his sister hostage! "No no lord Eddard. Let us explain..you see...Lyanna WANTED this."

Naturally, they can't expect Ned to believe that on their word alone. Which is why they COULD have said, at any point during their conversation with Ned, "Lord Eddard, if you will agree to disarm and enter the tower alone to speak to your sister, on our word of honor that we will neither harm you nor take you hostage, you and she may find a way to avoid this battle."

They had time to insert this brief sentence into their extensive self-eulogy. Ned was being polite to them - he did not rush into battle with them. He reined up politely, addressed them with respect, and listened patiently while they explained to him at length what Awesomely Awesome Kingsguards they were. If they didn't ask Ned to parley, it was because they chose not to, not because he didn't let them.

And IMO, if they didn't choose to parley - even though a battlefield parley is a perfectly acceptable military tactic to try to avoid a battle where you're outnumbered - it means that they only wanted the fight, and were not interested in a possible peaceful solution - even if a peaceful solution would be both beneficial to Jon and what the alleged King's mother would want. Which indicates to me that they're interested in a glorious battle, not in Protecting their king or Obeying his mother - both important tenets of the KG vow...which means, IMO, that they probably don't consider Jon the King.

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Damn the auto correct, "Stamos."

Remind me to tell you a story about a Christmas party in downtown Annapolis, a bed & breakfast, open blinds and a John Stamos look-alike who had just been at said party :).....

This story is totally coming up for V. 100!!!

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Just going to do this bullet point style cause we've done this probably 100x now.

1) It IS in the books. Not as a rule but as evidenced by Jaime remaining with Aerys when everyone else went off to the Trident. One KG had to stay behind.

2)You do not get to use Duskendale. It's frankly just bizarre that people keep trying to use Duskendale. Aerys was captured. What were the KG going to do? Knock on the door and go, "hey...I've got this vow to uphold. Please lemme in." And there WAS ONE KG WITH THE KING. He was killed. Again, more evidence that the King needs one KG with him.

3) You cannot use the Boar and Bob and Barry. No one suspected that Drunk Robert was THAT drunk and was going to miss his thrust.

So textual evidence that the King always has one KG with him isn't enough because one of the KG didn't sit down and explain the rules to the audience? At what point was GRRM going to have "exposition explosion" on KG rules and not make it look blatantly obvious that he was trying to hint at something. It's not how he writes. He gives bits and pieces here and there and expects us to connect the dots.

The brother is the best friend of the Usurper who, as far as the KG know, thinks that they are holding his sister hostage! "No no lord Eddard. Let us explain..you see...Lyanna WANTED this." And the screaming: she wasn't screaming. Lyanna never calls him "Eddard!" She always called him Ned. That's not Lyanna in the dream screaming, that's the present day person trying to wake Ned up.

1) It IS in the books. Not as a rule but as evidenced by Jaime remaining with Aerys when everyone else went off to the Trident. One KG had to stay behind.

The day had been windy when he said farwell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your grace," Jamie had pleaded, "Let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than our cousin Robert. He wants you close so Tywin can't harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jamie's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch, I am a knight of the kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," SerJon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak you promised to obey."---aFfC page 133

2)You do not get to use Duskendale. It's frankly just bizarre that people keep trying to use Duskendale.

Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the usurper----aGoT page 27

Aerys was captured. What were the KG going to do? Knock on the door and go, "hey...I've got this vow to uphold. Please lemme in." And there WAS ONE KG WITH THE KING. He was killed. Again, more evidence that the King needs one KG with him.

3) You cannot use the Boar and Bob and Barry. No one suspected that Drunk Robert was THAT drunk and was going to miss his thrust.

Robert sets a hard pace and soon the pair leave the kingsroad to ride through the barrowlands. They do not stop until dawn, miles south of the main party.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_12

So textual evidence that the King always has one KG with him isn't enough because one of the KG didn't sit down and explain the rules to the audience?

"Your grace," Jamie had pleaded, "Let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.

At what point was GRRM going to have "exposition explosion" on KG rules and not make it look blatantly obvious that he was trying to hint at something.

If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, i would have no choice but to obey.--aDwD 857-858

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

It's not how he writes. He gives bits and pieces here and there and expects us to connect the dots.

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"No,"Ned said with sadness in his voice, " Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming, "Eddard" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.


"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again,


"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise..."---aGoT page 410.



The dream ends with "Eddard." That still leaves Lyanna screaming...

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"No,"Ned said with sadness in his voice, " Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming, "Eddard" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again,

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise..."---aGoT page 410.

The dream ends with "Eddard." That still leaves Lyanna screaming...

The key word here is AGAIN. The person calling "Eddard" and "Lord Eddard" are the same person that wakes Ned up by saying "Lord Eddard" once again in the very next sentence... that you (conveniently) neglected to posted: I believe it's Poole. Point being, it's not Lyanna screaming.

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The key word here is AGAIN. The person calling "Eddard" and "Lord Eddard" are the same person that wakes Ned up by saying "Lord Eddard" once again in the very next sentence... that you (conveniently) neglected to posted: I believe it's Poole. Point being, it's not Lyanna screaming.

"No,"Ned said with sadness in his voice, " Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming, "Eddard" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again,

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise..." ---aGoT page 410

The key word here is AGAIN. The person calling "Eddard" and "Lord Eddard" are the same person that wakes Ned up by saying "Lord Eddard" once again in the very next sentence... that you (conveniently) neglected to posted: I believe it's Poole. Point being, it's not Lyanna screaming.

"Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark.---aGoT page 410.

I posted the dream ended at Eddard--- the following not included in the dream of the tower:

"Eddard" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again,

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise..."

"Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark.---aGoT page 410.

Your end of the dream excludes;

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming, "Eddard" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again,

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise..." ---aGoT page 410

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Just going to do this bullet point style cause we've done this probably 100x now.

1) It IS in the books. Not as a rule but as evidenced by Jaime remaining with Aerys when everyone else went off to the Trident. One KG had to stay behind.

So because Jaime once had to stay with Aerys alone, it means that there must be a general rule that the LC of the KG must always have a Kingsguard with the King - even though we've been explicitly shown that the LC can leave the King alone with trustworthy non-KG guards? And we ALSO must accept that there's another unwritten rule that never appears in the book that says the KG is allowed to Disobey their orders to Protect the king - even though there are several instances in the book where the KG chose to Obey over Protect and was condoned, and not one single instance in the books where the KG chose to Disobey commands in order to protect the King and were condoned for it?

IMO, while it's possible that those rules exist, I don't think it's at all proven - and some evidence against their existence (though not conclusive evidence).

2)You do not get to use Duskendale. It's frankly just bizarre that people keep trying to use Duskendale. Aerys was captured. What were the KG going to do? Knock on the door and go, "hey...I've got this vow to uphold. Please lemme in."

I agree that would be absurd. But it was not absurd for a KG to covertly sneak in through the sewer in a rescue operation - and any experienced military man (as the KG are) could have come up with such a plan in far less time than six months. But even though the KG likely had this plan ready in far less than six months, they patiently waited for Tywin to resolve the problem, while their king went nuts for months in a dungeon - alone. It was only till the night before Tywin was going to attack Duskendale (and ensure the King's demise) that Barristan meekly asked permission to try to save the King's life - deferring to Tywin's authority even in this. To me, that shows that Protect doesn't trump Obey - and it shows that an authority figure CAN command a KG to NOT protect the king.

3) You cannot use the Boar and Bob and Barry. No one suspected that Drunk Robert was THAT drunk and was going to miss his thrust.

Still an instance of Obey over Protect. It isn't up to the KG to decide whether the King is drunk enough to need his protection regardless of what orders he gives - that's judging the king to decide whether or not to Obey him, which as per Hightower, the KG is not supposed to do. If Barristan had a vow-based mandate to Disobey the King's orders if he had to do it to Protect him, then Cersei would happily have accused Barristan of breaking his vows - she was already looking for any excuse to get rid of him. But she did not, nor did Honorable Ned who's a stickler for keeping vows - so Barristan, IMO, is mandated to Obey over Protect - at least till we see at least one KG Disobey in order to Protect - which we have not yet seen.

Look, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I think you're a fun and skilled debater. And you may indeed be completely right, and I completely wrong. All I'm really arguing for is the concession that nothing is really proven yet, and that there is still room for doubt and for alternate theories.

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The question of the kingsguard at the tower has been asked and answered.

The answer does not support kingsguard equals king present.

True, but then he's not gonna answer that question with an answer that effectively gives away one of the major reveals of the books.

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Look, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I think you're a fun and skilled debater. And you may indeed be completely right, and I completely wrong. All I'm really arguing for is the concession that nothing is really proven yet, and that there is still room for doubt and for alternate theories.

I think you're fun too! Sorry if I got snippish. It's more that I know we've done this loads now, and will continue to do so. It's just funny.

(I really just want book 6...)

:grouphug:

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Has this been talked about before? What if R+L is meant to be Robert? It's hypothetic time, by the way.



Randy Robert does it again. As Lyanna's really hot, by all accounts, he simply couldn't wait for the wedding and bedding. Cart before the horse time.


How is Rhaegar going to react to this news? He arranges to kidnap Lyanna. Where is easy: ToJ. Why Lyanna? How about a plan to united South and North? Or, was he trying to forge another (magical) legend-sword, like Lightbringer? Instead of the one he truly loves, it's done with one he despises, or the next best thing: Robert's offspring. In other words, it'd be a demon-sword rather than a hero-sword.


Lyanna grasps that's the intention and defends her child. (Wouldn't any mother in her place?)


Rheagar has to leave, as he's been summoned to fight a war. So, he has to leave Lyanna, and especially as he's failed to accomplish what he'd set out to do.


Ned arrives, and after much scrapping with some tough cookies, finally finds Lyanna. Clearly, he takes all the blood to be about child birth. Lyanna sets the record straight. Also, she knows how Robert's likely to react. Ned appreciates what she's saying, because he's known Robert longer than anyone. As much as he hates the idea, Lyanna makes him promise to care for this child. Jon is named from Ned's admiration of Jon Arryn, which Robert also shares.



Had Ned arrived on the scene with Lyanna's child, what would be Robert's first instinct? He'd fly into a rage. He'd only see this child as being a forever reminder of Rhaegar, who he absolutely hates. The child wouldn't live long.



Just in case you didn't see how the sword comes into it, as it's not been forged in a counter-mirror of Lightbringer, it's doomed. It dooms Rhaegar because he's failed to make Deathdealer, or some appropriate name. Robert would be victorious even if he used a straw stem.



Where was the child? As she's dying, Lyanna asks Arthur Dayne to take the child into safe-keeping, at Starfall. Taking 'Dawn' there has more significant beyond how Ned views Dayne. Matters get complicated as Ashara thinks she's best for the child. Unable to handle the grief of losing a brother and having a child she's taken more than a liking to, she throws herself off a cliff.



Meanwhile, back at Winterfell, news reaches Catelyn of Ned, and where he's been. That sets up the confrontation when Ned tells Catelyn that Jon is 'his blood'. (That's significant.)



And there we are, Robert + Lyanna = Jon.


Don't forget, Jon is still a descendant of a Targaryen. Rhaelle was Aegon V's daughter. (Nice link back to Egg and Dunk.) With Jon's ability to warg woven in as well, that makes Jon's line more interesting. Potentially, he'd be capable of warging with a dragon when he has need to ride one.


I see no example of any other Targ being capable of warging. Perhaps someone else's eyes is sharper than mine.



It's probably got more holes than the sieve proverbial. Hypothetical is all it is. As we're closing in on The Ton.... It's worth looking at, even if it's just to review possible outcomes.




There is another variant but it involves multiple births, bringing in Ashara as another Rhaegar 'flame of desire'. This has Howland Reed taking one child under his protection while Ned takes the other. The more you ponder.... Leave it alone, perhaps for another day.


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That assumes R plus L is true...

If you already assume it is true, you do not need the kingsguard to prove it.

I agree with you that there are other explanations for the Kingsguard presence other than that they considered Jon their rightful king. I'm about 50/50 on whether they were married or not. But if you really think Jon is not Rhaegar's son by Lyanna then I don't know what to tell you.

Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar.

I don't know how you can read that and not realize what he's talking about.

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Has this been talked about before? What if R+L is meant to be Robert? It's hypothetic time, by the way.

If I understand you, not possible. There was a year in between HH and Lyanna being taken by Rhaegar during which time Robert and Lyanna probably never saw each other. Robert was at the Eyrie with Ned. Lyanna was in WF for a bit, then probably back in the Riverlands.

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If I understand you, not possible. There was a year in between HH and Lyanna being taken by Rhaegar during which time Robert and Lyanna probably never saw each other. Robert was at the Eyrie with Ned. Lyanna was in WF for a bit, then probably back in the Riverlands.

While I don't believe it to be true, it's not completely impossible to have happened. Specially because Robert is known to forget the things he has said/done when he was drunk. The vale isn't that far from the North, he could have taken a ship there and visit Lyanna. Who knows, maybe nothing happened there but he tried. And that's what Lyanna said then "bye-bye".

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If I understand you, not possible. There was a year in between HH and Lyanna being taken by Rhaegar during which time Robert and Lyanna probably never saw each other. Robert was at the Eyrie with Ned. Lyanna was in WF for a bit, then probably back in the Riverlands.

Thanks. I was throwing together Robert's randy nature, and Lyanna had been such a prized beauty....

Where did the kidnapping take place? I'd be figuring while Lyanna was on her way to Robert, for the wedding. That adds more to where Robert's anger comes from.

There is this connection between Egg and Aemon that's worth knitting in with Jon. It'd be a nice touch for that piece of irony, particularly as Aemon's departed to join Egg and Dunk.

What the hell! Let's have a good review of all we know. There's no better time than now, and leading into The Ton. Forget all we think we know and build it all up again.

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I agree with you that there are other explanations for the Kingsguard presence other than that they considered Jon their rightful king. I'm about 50/50 on whether they were married or not. But if you really think Jon is not Rhaegar's son by Lyanna then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't know how you can read that and not realize what he's talking about.

In order to have the Kingsguard consider Jon the rightful king.

we need

1. Lyanna and Rhaegar to be married.

--Ned has just resigned as hand over Robert's order to kill children, stating--"I thought you a better man than this Robert, I thought we had made a better king."--Eddard aGoT page 343.

"but he(Ned) had assured her(Lyanna) that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true that would love her with all his heart." aGoT page 367

:"Love is sweet dearest Ned but it cannot change a man's nature" Lyanna aGoT page 367

---Going to a brothel to see one of Robert's bastards clearly showed Ned that he had been mistaken.

"He wondered if Rhaegar Targaryen had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not." aGoT page 369

Ned was visiting Robert's bastard at a brothel. He had just confirmed that what Robert did (sex) before his betrothal did matter

Ned thought Rhaeger would not frequent brothels.----Unknown source of this conclusion---

Hypothesis---the unknown source of the conclusion---Ned knew that Rhaegar did not have sex before his marriage.

That one is pretty solid.

except.

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.--GRRM

http://entertainment...sy-and-history/

2. Lyanna to have had the baby

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.GRRM http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1040/

That does not exclude it.

But

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. .---aGoT page 410

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650

"That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."- AFfC p. 21

That would put Ned at the birth,

3. News of the Trident and King's Landing to arrive after the birth.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell. --aGoT page 410

Suggests they knew.

except

Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the usurper----aGoT page 27

Makes Robert the usurper before the sack.

What I think of it makes little difference. Asserting the kingsguard were protecting the king requires too many inventions and leaps for a question that has been asked and answered.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

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Thanks. I was throwing together Robert's randy nature, and Lyanna had been such a prized beauty....

Where did the kidnapping take place? I'd be figuring while Lyanna was on her way to Robert, for the wedding. That adds more to where Robert's anger comes from.

There is this connection between Egg and Aemon that's worth knitting in with Jon. It'd be a nice touch for that piece of irony, particularly as Aemon's departed to join Egg and Dunk.

What the hell! Let's have a good review of all we know. There's no better time than now, and leading into The Ton. Forget all we think we know and build it all up again.

We don't know where the kidnapping took place for sure, but the most logical answer seems to be the Riverlands, perhaps from HH itself. Think about how big the North is and why Brandon went straight to KL, not North to try and overtake R and L. Robert we do know was in the Eyrie, not Storm's End so unlikely that Lyanna was traveling to him for their wedding.

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We don't know where the kidnapping took place for sure, but the most logical answer seems to be the Riverlands, perhaps from HH itself. Think about how big the North is and why Brandon went straight to KL, not North to try and overtake R and L. Robert we do know was in the Eyrie, not Storm's End so unlikely that Lyanna was traveling to him for their wedding.

I'd be shocked if it were anywhere but the Riverlands in general and near Harrenhal (maybe not at Harrenhal, but near it) in particular.

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