R+L=J v99

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'm sorry, but what does Viserys fleeing KL have to do with the KG viewing Robert as a usurper? I've seen that twice now in this version..

There was no KG wig Viserys orginally because he isn't king (and thus received other protectors). That no KG went to him after every other male in line for him was dead (or so Westeros thinks) is telling.

[Lord Varys]

The point in all this order stuff is that the king - and by extension, the royal family, if the king says so, or implicitly or explicitly allows it - makes up the rules the Kingsguard has to follow. They do not make up this stuff by themselves, nor is there a sort of emergency protocol embodied in their brains that enables them to judge or determine what they should do when the present king and the Heir Apparent die, and how it has to be decided who is supposed to be the new king.

Effectively, the situation post-Sack was for the Targaryen succession about as murky as the succession at the time of Maekar's death - although there were but two claimants, not four. We have Prince Viserys, who would most likely have been backed and supported by the Queen Dowager Rhaella, who herself has a lesser claim to the Iron Throne, and we have the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna - if they were married. It's claim would depend on whether the people deciding who should be the new king would accept the legality of Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna.

Just as George said, the Kingsguard has to follow orders, and if they are ordered to do something by a person whose orders they accept, this order stands, even if the person is long dead, and they know as much - especially, since it would be easily imaginable that Rhaegar specified the order in this way, say, by stating that 'You guard this tower until my return. You don't leave under any circumstances whatsoever.'

Technically, Rhaegar could have decided that Lyanna could command the KG as well, if she was his wife, and this could have figured into the final decision of the three knights to stay at the tower. But it seems to be pretty clear that she was no longer capable of giving orders when Ned arrived - either because she was dying, or because she was in childbirth.

It is possible that the three knights considered Rhaegar's son the true king when they learned that Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were (supposed to be) dead. But it would also be possible that they just stayed there because Rhaegar commanded them to do this. They could have believed that it would be difficult/impossible to install a child from Rhaegar's polygamous second wife as king, or they could even have believed that this marriage was unlawful/wrong. They could even have believed, that Aerys and Rhaella (who was still alive) would prefer Viserys as king, not this child from a love affair which caused a huge civil war.

But if Rhaegar commanded them to guard that tower, it was their duty, and they did it. No one ever said that those three knights - especially not Arthur Dayne - were the ideal Kingsguard, just that they were ideal knights. That's a difference, and Jaime seems to judge them mostly for things they did prior to the ToJ - if he ever thinks about that, my guess is that he thinks they remained loyal to Rhaegar by protecting his dying wife/lover, instead of making up their own mind what to do (what Jaime did).

[Ygrain]

But if Rhaegar commanded them to guard that tower, it was their duty, and they did it. No one ever said that those three knights - especially not Arthur Dayne - were the ideal Kingsguard, just that they were ideal knights. That's a difference, and Jaime seems to judge them mostly for things they did prior to the ToJ - if he ever thinks about that, my guess is that he thinks they remained loyal to Rhaegar by protecting his dying wife/lover, instead of making up their own mind what to do (what Jaime did).

He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. “No longer,” he answered, “but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.”

“Was there one who was best of all?”

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more.

This is not just about Dayne being a knight but being Kingsguard.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, but is Ned describing here the ideal Kingsguard, or the ideal knight? I'd say the latter. The Starks have a very strict sense of honor and duty, so we can't really be sure that his focus when recalling Ser Arthur as an example for his 6-7 seven-year-old son would lie on the qualities a king would look for in an 'ideal Kingsguard', but rather on the strictly knightly qualities of Ser Arthur and his brethren.

Now, for a king the ideal qualities for a Kingsguard are blind obedience and prowess at weapons. That's about it. They are also great propaganda tools, if they excel at tourneys, and look and behave chivalric - thus feeding the image that only the finest warriors are allowed to join their ranks, but in essence a KG should just obey the king, protect him, and die for him if need be. They should not really have their own code of honors, or a mind of their own, or else they end up killing the king they are sworn to protect (Jaime), are heavily involved in a war for succession (Criston Cole), or fall in love with the wrong woman and commit high treason (Arys Oakheart).

Ned's concept of chivalry should mostly be based on the 'protecting the innocents' stuff, not 'the blind obedience to the king' part, which is characteristic for the KG, and we see from Jaime's memory that Ser Arthur really embodied that part, when he was allowed to do it (during the hunt for the Kingswood Brotherhood).

We should also keep in mind that Ned (and Jaime) was sort of biased towards Aerys' old KG because, well, Robert's new guys are a lot worse than Aerys' knights ever were. But the picture we get from them throughout the novels strongly suggest that they only were a shining example to the people who only saw them from afar - which Ned did, although he may have been somewhat closer to Ser Arthur. They really lived that blind obedience ideal, and even if Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell could get around that thing because they mostly seemed to have hung out with Rhaegar, Ser Barristan, Ser Gerold, Prince Lewyn, and Ser Jonothor, and Ser Jaime did not.

[Ygrain]

Oh, come on. The context makes pretty clear that they are talking about KG the whole time:

Bran: "Are the KG the finest knights?"

Ned: "They were."

Bran: "Who was the best KG?"
Ned: "Arthur Dayne."

And the best KG is one who remains true to his vows no matter the cost, i.e. bringing the ultimate sacrifice.

[BearQueen87]

Yeah, but is Ned describing here the ideal Kingsguard, or the ideal knight? I'd say the latter. The Starks have a very strict sense of honor and duty, so we can't really be sure that his focus when recalling Ser Arthur as an example for his 6-7 seven-year-old son would lie on the qualities a king would look for in an 'ideal Kingsguard', but rather on the strictly knightly qualities of Ser Arthur and his brethren.

And I would say it's the former because Ned gets sad and won't say anymore once he recalls that Arthur is dead. Why is Arthur dead? Not for being a knight...but for being a KG, something Dayne was proclaiming loudly the day he died at the TOJ. This is about Arthur Dayne, the KG, not Arthur Dayne, the knight.

[Lord Varys]

I'm really not sure that Ned truly ever grasped the dark sides of being a KG (else, he would never have condemned and despised Jaime). For him a KG might be the embodiment of true knighthood, because that's what the Targaryens made people believe.

In that sense, Ned would have respected Ser Arthur because he sacrificed his life for his liege lord, prince, and friend - Rhaegar, not necessarily the child he was protecting. He honored him because he thought he embodied that part of the whole liege lord/vassal stuff, which is also very important in the North.

Speaking about that: What aspects of the dream sequence do you think actually occurred IRL at the ToJ? I really have difficulty to imagine that melodramatic lines like 'And so it begins' and 'No, now it ends' were ever said there.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I wonder why the distinction matters? The Bran passage makes it clear that the KG are (or once were-- read pre Bobby B ) selected from the finest knights. Ergo a shining example of KG is also a shining example of knighthood. The same qualities that make one an ideal knight would be the prerequisite qualities for a KG. The obedience part is about keeping vows, which goes back to honour, which is part and parcel of being an ideal knight. The rest seems like splitting hairs, the reasons why KG obey their orders seem clear: not blindness, rather adherence to a vow.

Furthermore, I don't see anything in text or in SSM to indicate that their obedience must continue after the death of the one who gave them an order, especially if such obedience would conflict their prime directive of guarding the King. Saying that is the case seems like an assumption of the highest order.

The notion that these three were blindly obeying orders from their dead prince seems not only lacking in textual proof, but illogical in that it ignores the fact that the three were not a monoblock but three individuals who could easily have split up to resolve any perceived conflict.

The fact they did not suggests that there was no such conflict.

[Lord Varys]

Isn't it interesting to speculate on such matters just because we can?

'Blind obedience' may have been somewhat misleading - all the king is interested is that a KG honors his vow to obey his commands. That he has also sworn to protect the weak and innocents does not really figure into the equation.

As to the other thing: For me, it would make more sense if the three guys stayed at the ToJ fulfilling Rhaegar's command to protect Lyanna and his (unborn) child at all costs. That would explain why they died fighting Ned and his companions. If they decided to stay there on their own, and not to honor Rhaegar's wishes, they should have been able to reach some sort of understanding with Ned.

[Mithras]

Compare Ned

“You are the King’s Hand, Lord Stark. You will do as I command you, or I’ll find me a Hand who will.”

“I wish him every success.” Ned unfastened the heavy clasp that clutched at the folds of his cloak, the ornate silver hand that was his badge of office. He laid it on the table in front of the king, saddened by the memory of the man who had pinned it on him, the friend he had loved. “I thought you a better man than this, Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king.”

and Dunk who beat the shit out of a prince when he tormented a girl to Gerold Hightower

After [the burning of Rickard and Brandon], Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’ That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.

And to Jonothor Darry

“You’re hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. “You’re hurting me.” In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted’s screaming. “We are sworn to protect her as well,” Jaime had finally been driven to say. “We are,” Darry allowed, “but not from him.”

The famed KG of Aerys were no true knights at all. A true knight should be able to say “f*ck you” even to the king when he sees the basics of knighthood (defend the innocent, protect the women) are being wasted. Ned was a better knight than all the KG of Aerys (except Jaime) could ever hope to be and Dunk (who was not even knighted like any of them) was the best.

Not only the KG of Aerys occasionally did not hold onto their primary vows of knighthood, but also they rationalized their blind foolishness and tried to brainwash Jaime too.

The KG is a corrupt organization and it should be reformed.

BTW, it looks like Jaime is starting to get the concept right.

“Ser Meryn.” Jaime smiled at the sour knight with the rust-red hair and the pouches under his eyes. “I have heard it said that Joffrey made use of you to chastise Sansa Stark.” He turned the White Book around one-handed. “Here, show me where it is in our vows that we swear to beat women and children.”

“I did as His Grace commanded me. We are sworn to obey.”

“Henceforth you will temper that obedience. My sister is Queen Regent. My father is the King’s Hand. I am Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Obey us. None other.”

Ser Meryn got a stubborn look on his face. “Are you telling us not to obey the king?”

“The king is eight. Our first duty is to protect him, which includes protecting him from himself. Use that ugly thing you keep inside your helm. If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me.”

[stateofdissipation]

He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. “No longer,” he answered, “but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.”

“Was there one who was best of all?”

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more.

This is not just about Dayne being a knight but being Kingsguard.

He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. “No longer,” he answered, “but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.”

“Was there one

The rule of thumb is that the pronoun refers to the the closest antecedent.

https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/gram_pronoun_unclear.html

In this case, the word "knights". If the writer intended to indicate that kingsguard was the subject of finest, the sentence needs rewriting.

who was best of all?”

The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more---aCoK page 301

Ned was telling his son that liked stories about knights... a story about a knight

"do you know any stories?" he asked the Reeds all of s sudden.

Meera laughed, "Oh, a few."

"Hodor" said Hodor, humming.

"You could tell one;" said Bran. "While we walked. Hodor likes stories about knights. I do too,"--aSoS page 336

[FrozenFire3]

The notion that these three were blindly obeying orders from their dead prince seems not only lacking in textual proof, but illogical in that it ignores the fact that the three were not a monoblock but three individuals who could easily have split up to resolve any perceived conflict.

The fact they did not suggests that there was no such conflict.

I will never understand why people invest so much in wishfully 'steering' a story (a story NOT history) in a certain direction, defying logic and authorial agency. Several textual and meta-textual clues, literary references and historical parallels seem to point to Jon being legitimate. So? *shrug* Martin's story, not mine. All I want is a compelling storytelling which surely does NOT depend on the what but rather on the how. Clinging so much to personal preferences and expectations will inevitably end up ruining the experience. In Martin's own words:

In a long series, readers who loved the early books may envision the story going in certain directions. Often those directions are wildly divergent. When the later books actually come out, some of those readers are inevitably going to be upset, because the story on the page does not correspond with the one in their heads. Others may be delighted. I have lost readers with every book, I am sure... but I've gained a lot more.

[stateofdissipation]

Oh, come on. The context makes pretty clear that they are talking about KG the whole time:

Bran: "Are the KG the finest knights?"

Ned: "They were."

Bran: "Who was the best KG?"

Ned: "Arthur Dayne."

And the best KG is one who remains true to his vows no matter the cost, i.e. bringing the ultimate sacrifice.

He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling in the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--aGoT page 607

“When King's Landing fell Ser Jamie, slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said ---aGoT page 410

FAIL

[stateofdissipation]

I wonder why the distinction matters? The Bran passage makes it clear that the KG are (or once were-- read pre Bobby B ) selected from the finest knights. Ergo a shining example of KG is also a shining example of knighthood. The same qualities that make one an ideal knight would be the prerequisite qualities for a KG. The obedience part is about keeping vows, which goes back to honour, which is part and parcel of being an ideal knight. The rest seems like splitting hairs, the reasons why KG obey their orders seem clear: not blindness, rather adherence to a vow.

Furthermore, I don't see anything in text or in SSM to indicate that their obedience must continue after the death of the one who gave them an order, especially if such obedience would conflict their prime directive of guarding the King. Saying that is the case seems like an assumption of the highest order.

The notion that these three were blindly obeying orders from their dead prince seems not only lacking in textual proof, but illogical in that it ignores the fact that the three were not a monoblock but three individuals who could easily have split up to resolve any perceived conflict.

The fact they did not suggests that there was no such conflict.

Interesting that you bring up the lack of text for following the orders of the dead. There is also nothing stating that obligation to follow orders ends at death of of the person giving the order.

It seems that some are determined to reinvent the wheel... the old wheel was round, our new one is circular and entirely new.

Round wheel

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Circular wheel

The kingsguard chose to stand and fight at the tower because they were protecting royal family members.

Round or circular...

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

I wonder why the distinction matters? The Bran passage makes it clear that the KG are (or once were-- read pre Bobby B ) selected from the finest knights. Ergo a shining example of KG is also a shining example of knighthood.

Pre Robert does necessarily equal Aerys.

Institutions like the Kingsguard change over time. The original Knights of the Garter were warriors all, the strongest, bravest, deadliest men of their time, with an average age under thirty. The present Knights of the Garter are octagenarians, and their parades are processions of wheelchairs and walkers.---GRRM

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Kingsguard

[MtnLion]

But if Rhaegar commanded them to guard that tower, it was their duty, and they did it. No one ever said that those three knights - especially not Arthur Dayne - were the ideal Kingsguard, just that they were ideal knights. That's a difference, and Jaime seems to judge them mostly for things they did prior to the ToJ - if he ever thinks about that, my guess is that he thinks they remained loyal to Rhaegar by protecting his dying wife/lover, instead of making up their own mind what to do (what Jaime did).

You are missing a key component, the Kingsguard say they swore a vow, as the reason that they stay. Ned does not know or think about any orders from Rhaegar to justify the Kingsguard staying and fighting. Ned only knows about the Kingsguard's vow, and he recalls these as honorable men, adhering to their vow to the end.

Ned's recurring dream, so don't presume to argue against it because it is a fever dream. It is recurring, and it holds deep meaning for Ned. It makes sense to Ned. It is a source of grief for Ned. He killed three of the finest knights he had ever known, one of them Ned says was the best of all, Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ned and his friends arrive at the tower, as they had in life. Again, this dream is based upon real events. This actually occurred, and the dialog is likely paraphrased in Ned's memory, because he is unable to get a lifelike image of his friends. He vividly remembers the three Kingsguard, though. The conversation must have a deep meaning for Ned. The only vow that we can be sure that Ned knows is the vow that Kingsguard take before receiving their white cloak. Jaime and others tell us that it is to protect and defend the king, dying for him, if need be. There are also some ancillary promises, but the first priority is given as protection and defense of the crown, all other promises descend from that.

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

Ned knew about Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident. He knew about Ser Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Robert’s friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his own maester to tend to Selmy’s wounds. He knew that Ser Jaime Lannister had been in the Red Keep during the battle. He expected to see these three at the Trident, too.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent are with Prince Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three. Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Ser Oswell Whent. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle. They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and King Aerys is dead by Jaime’s hand. Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king. He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when King’s Landing fell.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Ser Gerold Hightower condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present. Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys. He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee. That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Ned’s capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friend’s and the Kingsguard’s best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem Darry is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard. They are admitting that they know that "Prince" Viserys is without a Kingsguard. They have ignored the insult of labeling Viserys as a prince, when he should be considered the king.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would shortly be under siege. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing so Ser Willem Darry was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with King Aerys, Elia, and her children.

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection. Taken together with Ned’s statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold Hightower sees leaving King Aerys' side at King’s Landing as fleeing from his duty, even if it was to protect Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys.

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. Without a Kingsguard to protect them Darry, Viserys and Daenerys are nearly captured and turned over to Robert. They manage to escape just before Dragonstone surrenders.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys. The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then) as Rhaella and Viserys flee King's Landing. It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation, by their vow, to stay and protect and defend someone at the tower (now).

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguard’s vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.
• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.
• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.
• Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.
• Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.

Reading these three statements, The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to protect Jon) now, because (explained) we swore a vow; puts things in a very clear light.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are a close match, with Dawn in hand Ser Arthur is superior. Ser Barristan single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale. Ser Jaime Lannister expresses his awe at the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Smiling Knight, who was slain by Ser Arthur. In the screenplay Jaime slays a dozen men before being subdued at the battle of the Whispering Woods. Kingsguard practice daily among themselves.

One of the seven is a crannogman, not known for fighting skill. Another is Ethan Glover, recently released from the Black Cells, and likely weak as well as just being Brandon's squire. It seems that even facing the odds that they do, the Kingsguard should prevail. Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The most important (first) battle of the Jon Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. There is nothing here that would indicate any fatalism on the part of Arthur. It suggests that Arthur expects to win, though we know with hindsight that they did not, and that at least Ned and Howland are aware of the secret.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honor’s sake.

We also have the text of the white book about Ser Gerold Hightower from the screenplay. Dispatched by King Areys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

[MtnLion]

Isn't it interesting to speculate on such matters just because we can?

'Blind obedience' may have been somewhat misleading - all the king is interested is that a KG honors his vow to obey his commands. That he has also sworn to protect the weak and innocents does not really figure into the equation.

As to the other thing: For me, it would make more sense if the three guys stayed at the ToJ fulfilling Rhaegar's command to protect Lyanna and his (unborn) child at all costs. That would explain why they died fighting Ned and his companions. If they decided to stay there on their own, and not to honor Rhaegar's wishes, they should have been able to reach some sort of understanding with Ned.

<snip>

“Ser Meryn.” Jaime smiled at the sour knight with the rust-red hair and the pouches under his eyes. “I have heard it said that Joffrey made use of you to chastise Sansa Stark.” He turned the White Book around one-handed. “Here, show me where it is in our vows that we swear to beat women and children.”

“I did as His Grace commanded me. We are sworn to obey.”

“Henceforth you will temper that obedience. My sister is Queen Regent. My father is the King’s Hand. I am Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Obey us. None other.”

Ser Meryn got a stubborn look on his face. “Are you telling us not to obey the king?”

“The king is eight. Our first duty is to protect him, which includes protecting him from himself. Use that ugly thing you keep inside your helm. If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me.”

It seems so foolish to try to change "Protect and defend" into "Obey and follow". The Kingsguard guard the king from harm and threat, first and foremost!

[Lord Varys]

Well, Ned does not know which vow they mean - or does, he don't know that. And the fact that the dream is recurring and has a deep meaning for Ned, does still not mean that he covers all that transpired there, or doesn't reinvent or restructure certain key points.

Aerys' KG was accustomed to answer to a grown-up king, enacting his absolute power (at least within his own castle). I'd imagine that kings guarding minor kings did have indeed another outlook on the whole obedience thing, for instance during the Regency of Aegon III (and Jaime truly tries to establish something like that during Tommen's reign - when Joff took over, the KG was also accustomed to obedience, and just did was the boy king said).

But it is really not the KG's duty to protect a grown-up king from himself, nor can they refuse to obey any order the king (or the prince they are supposed to obey) gives them. Say, for instance, if a king said that he would want to take on somebody in single combat, they would not be able to protect him, and so forth.

In the same way, they cannot really decide that a command given by their dead prince/king is no longer valid, just because that king/prince is dead. The KG would have little to no need to die protecting Lyanna and her child from Lyanna's brother.

[RumHam]

Ned's recurring dream, so don't presume to argue against it because it is a fever dream.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

[Kevan Oldenpeat]

Hello, long time lurker doing his first post here.

I subscribe to R+L=J, but I have not read all 99 threads, only some of them, and I think I have found something that let's us reconstruct a small part of the talk Eddard hat with Lyanna at the ToJ.

I'm talking about the scene where Eddard visits the brothel and meets Roberts bastard daughter Barra, found in Eddard IX. We have this exchange:

"Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it ... as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is."

"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promise he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

"And tell him I've not been with no one else. [...] I don't want jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly."

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting."

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

So, what do we make of this?

"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. - Reminds us of the promise Ned made, that haunts him every day.

Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. - Yes, he kept his vows. Every vow. Including his wedding vow. Ned has no reason to lie to himself in his own thoughts.

He thought of the promise he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them. - Thinking about the promise to Lyanna. It cost him a part of his honor, his truthful reputation, and had an effect on his marriage.

"And tell him I've not been with no one else. [...] I don't want jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly." - Now it gets interesting and the real speculation starts. I assume Lyanna has used words like this when she spoke to Ned. Maybe a message he should give to Robert, like the one we see here?

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. - When Lyanna used a similar wording, that thought would make sense. Like in "Yes, Rhaegar was good to you, yet here we are."

"I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting." - Might as well be "I will tell him, Lyanna, and I promise you, Jon shall not go wanting."

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. - At this point, let me quote Eddard I: "The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then [...]". Need I say more? Ned is in painful grief, triggered by a young girl's smile who is holding a dark haired newborn, having just given a promise to that girl.

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. - Of course his thoughts are drifting to Jon now. Not because he thinks of bastards, but because of the parallelism to the ToJ. And btw, Ned is not riding through the rainy night with Jon in front of him right now, is he? Maybe he is thinking about his way back from the ToJ? A hint at the secrecy that was needed to hide Jon?

If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? - This is where his thoughts snap back to the situation at hand, away from the ToJ and Lyanna, back to Roberts bastards. The Jon - Bastard - Connection we have here is a red herring. The sentences that are really telling something about Jon are over now.

Conclusion? The Barra-Situation reminds Ned of the ToJ and seems to parallel some of the exchange between Ned and Lyanna.

So, this is my first contribution to R+L=J. If this has been posted before ( I suppose it has) I'm sorry for the false alarm. What is your opinion on this?

[UnmaskedLurker]

In the same way, they cannot really decide that a command given by their dead prince/king is no longer valid, just because that king/prince is dead. The KG would have little to no need to die protecting Lyanna and her child from Lyanna's brother.

I strongly disagree, as other have pointed out before, this logic might lead to an unending loop in which the KG can never leave the ToJ. For example, if Rhaegar said--stay here and guard the tower until I get back--they could never leave because R is never coming back (not that I am arguing that was the particular order, but just an example). The KG are allowed to apply logic and reason--especially after the death of the person who gave the order. The KG would have known that Rhaegar would have no way to have anticipated everyone other than Viserys dying and no other KG being available to go to Viserys other than the 3 KG at ToJ. To imagine that the finest knights in the kingdom--as Ned thinks of them and singles out Dayne as the best--would blindly follow Rhaegar's original order to stay at ToJ and make no attempt to send at least one KG to Viserys strains credulity. That action would be the action of an automoton--not the actions of the finest knights in the kingdom. Unless, of course, Viserys is not the king and the king is in the tower--then their actions make perfect sense. The fact that a GC might decide to install Viserys over Jon is not relevant--until such an action is taken, the KG are bound to view Jon as king and protect him as king because he is next in line (if and only if R&L were married).