R+L=J v99

[stateofdissipation]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

he is apparently aware of the ssm...in the text Ned does not have a fever..

"A small cup," Ned said. "my head is still heavy with milk of the poppy."---aGoT page 412.

The place where one gets that it was a fever dream.. warns against exactly what is being done.

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409

It is also on old dream not a recurring dream...

[BearQueen87]

It is also on old dream not a recurring dream...

What...is the difference?! Old dream means he's had it before. Thus the dream is reoccurring at some unknown frequency.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, but wouldn't the three KGs not have at least another reason to prevent Ned from entering the tower? If they were acting on their own - just protecting the new king, because they decided he was the new king - then they should have first tried to reach an understanding with the uncle of the new king, no?

But if Rhaegar had explicitly commanded them to not let anyone in there, this could explain why they did not even let Ned in there.

And I've already conceded that I think they would have left the Tower eventually - when Lyanna and/or the child were fit to travel. Considering that we clearly don't have to full picture of the conversation between the knights and Ned, it would be even possible that he first told them about Rhaegar's death and the Sack - if not, then this news could not have traveled to them all that fast, most likely only a few days before Ned arrived. [Honestly, I don't know how they could have learned about it before Ned came there, since no one would have sent them a raven, and Ned left KL directly after the Sack to go south. Who should have outrun him?]

The dream thing is really much more Ned dealing/restructuring/reinterpreting his actions in that particular situation, rather than a precise account of whatever happened there. Especially since Jon, Lyanna, and whatever Ned promised her are conspicuously absent from the dream.

[BearQueen87]

The dream thing is really much more Ned dealing/restructuring/reinterpreting his actions in that particular situation, rather than a precise account of whatever happened there. Especially since Jon, Lyanna, and whatever Ned promised her are conspicuously absent from the dream.

Okay, and what is Ned reinterpreting/remembering (at least thematically if not literally): that the 3 KG did not flee from battle. Why? Because they are KG. What makes them KG? A vow that they swore then as now. What sort of vow would that be? One to defend the King at all costs.

And I would say that Lyanna is not absent. We know she's in that Tower. She may not be screaming "Eddard" but she is there.

[Kingmonkey]

And the screaming: she wasn't screaming. Lyanna never calls him "Eddard!" She always called him Ned. That's not Lyanna in the dream screaming, that's the present day person trying to wake Ned up.

This is a very interesting point! I don't know if you have a source for the claim that Lyanna always called him Ned, but it struck me from the first reading that "Lord Eddard" is an unlikely thing for Lyanna to call him. As far as I can recall, the only thing we've seen Lyanna calling Ned is "dearest Ned". This doesn't preclude her calling him Eddard sometimes, but Lord Eddard? She hasn't seen Ned since he became Lord Eddard -- last time they met, Ned wasn't even in line to become the next lord.

However, as Stateofdissipation pointed out, the following line is "Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark. Echoed at first glance implies that Poole said the same thing as DreamLyanna immediately after she did. So what's going on here? Let's not forget, it's a dream. In dreams people may merge things going on around them into their dream. Thus Lyanna's "Eddard!" may have been DreamLyanna speaking in Lyanna's actual voice, while "Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again. seems likely to be Ned interpolating Poole's call into the dream context.

I think this is another good reason to look at Ned's dream as being first and foremost a dream. Not a literal recounting of events by any means, but a mishmash of memory, fantasy, assumption and interpolation that tells us a considerable amount about how Ned's subconscious regards the events at the ToJ, but is an unreliable narration of those events at best.

I'm working on a rather meaty essay on the influence of Celtic "descent into the underworld" myths on the ToJ dream narrative that goes into this, and I might nick your observation for it, if you don't mind!

[stateofdissipation]

What...is the difference?! Old dream means he's had it before. Thus the dream is reoccurring at some unknown frequency.

If there is no difference... why change it.

Agreed it recurs with an unknown frequency. Rather than spell all that out sticking with "old" is more accurate and equally informative.

Without the qualifier of "unknown frequency" there is a difference.

Recurring dreams are the subject of psychological analysis and studies..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurring_dream

Old dreams recurring with unknown frequency are not.

[Kingmonkey]

Yeah, but wouldn't the three KGs not have at least another reason to prevent Ned from entering the tower? If they were acting on their own - just protecting the new king, because they decided he was the new king - then they should have first tried to reach an understanding with the uncle of the new king, no?

But if Rhaegar had explicitly commanded them to not let anyone in there, this could explain why they did not even let Ned in there.

This question bothers the hell out of me. I wonder if we have anything that tells us what happens to standing orders to a KG when the issuing monarch is dead? Clearly new orders from the new monarch would supersede those standing orders, but you'd think that in the absence of the monarch, the KG would have some scope to interpret. Had Rhaegar said "Stay here and guard the tower, don't let anyone in" and Lyanna had recovered and left, would the 3KG have stayed at the tower following those old orders absent any new ones? That would seem very unlikely.

I suspect there was a negotiation at the ToJ that we simply haven't seen. The negotiation did not go well for some reason, and Ned remains haunted by the tragic failure to find an understanding with the 3KG that resulted in the death of five of his close companions and three King's guards he remembers with considerable admiration. Of course it's perfectly possible that there was no negotiation because AuthorReasons, but it just makes a lot more sense to me that there was.

[Kingmonkey]

What...is the difference?! Old dream means he's had it before. Thus the dream is reoccurring at some unknown frequency.

I'm guilty of referring to it as a recurring dream in the past too, but it's not really supported in the text. "He dreamt an old dream," is all we have to go on. This might indicate that it's a dream he has been having for years, or it might indicate a dream he had once many years ago and never since. It's not even explicit in the text that the dream he has on this occasion is exactly the same as previous versions:

"He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood." End paragraph. These elements must necessarily by the text be the substance of previous dream(s), but the form of the dream may be quite different.

[stateofdissipation]

Jamie turned to Meryn Trant. "Ser you have been remiss in teaching our new brothers their duties."

"What duties," said Meryn Trant defensively.

"Keeping the king alive. How many monarchs have you lost since I left the city? Two, is it!" aSoS BG page 274

Another group of kngsguard lost two monarchs...

“When King's Landing fell Ser Jamie, slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said ---aGoT page 410

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Lyanna would never call Ned by his full name. She calls him Ned that's all.

[Ygrain]

Well, Ned does not know which vow they mean - or does, he don't know that. And the fact that the dream is recurring and has a deep meaning for Ned, does still not mean that he covers all that transpired there, or doesn't reinvent or restructure certain key points.

"Kingsguard has higher standards and Kingsuard does not flee because we swore a vow." makes pretty clear which vow they are referring to.

In the same way, they cannot really decide that a command given by their dead prince/king is no longer valid, just because that king/prince is dead. The KG would have little to no need to die protecting Lyanna and her child from Lyanna's brother.

The said brother is notorious for loyalty to the guy who condoned the murder of Rhaegar's children, and has six other guys with him whose silence cannot be relied on, either, especially if keeping Rhaegar's heir secret equals treason. Just saying.

snip

Yes, this has been noted before, but it doesn't make your observation any less worthy :-)

Yeah, but wouldn't the three KGs not have at least another reason to prevent Ned from entering the tower? If they were acting on their own - just protecting the new king, because they decided he was the new king - then they should have first tried to reach an understanding with the uncle of the new king, no?

And what agreement could they reach? Their king is Jon and they want to defend his birthright. Ned's king is Robert and he will not support Jon's claim. Letting the KG leave with the kid equals to sowing seeds of a future civil war.

But if Rhaegar had explicitly commanded them to not let anyone in there, this could explain why they did not even let Ned in there.

Yet it still doesn't explain why all three of them stayed at ToJ, why they never show any concern about Viserys and why they invoke their vows and not an order.

And I've already conceded that I think they would have left the Tower eventually - when Lyanna and/or the child were fit to travel. Considering that we clearly don't have to full picture of the conversation between the knights and Ned, it would be even possible that he first told them about Rhaegar's death and the Sack - if not, then this news could not have traveled to them all that fast, most likely only a few days before Ned arrived. [Honestly, I don't know how they could have learned about it before Ned came there, since no one would have sent them a raven, and Ned left KL directly after the Sack to go south. Who should have outrun him?]

Anyone on a good horse. Ned travelled with his army to Storms' End first. Plus, there is an option of a raven to Starfall and a messenger from there.

The dream thing is really much more Ned dealing/restructuring/reinterpreting his actions in that particular situation, rather than a precise account of whatever happened there. Especially since Jon, Lyanna, and whatever Ned promised her are conspicuously absent from the dream.

Absent?

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

Here you have Lyanna lumped into the ToJ scene right at the very beginning, and then there is Lyanna again and the promise..

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

“Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again.

“I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise …”

It doesn't matter that it is actually Vayon Poole waking Ned; the important thing is that his subconsciousness firmly connects Lyanna and the promise to the whole scene.

I'm guilty of referring to it as a recurring dream in the past too, but it's not really supported in the text. "He dreamt an old dream," is all we have to go on. This might indicate that it's a dream he has been having for years, or it might indicate a dream he had once many years ago and never since. It's not even explicit in the text that the dream he has on this occasion is exactly the same as previous versions:

"He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood." End paragraph. These elements must necessarily by the text be the substance of previous dream(s), but the form of the dream may be quite different.

There is also this:

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

[BearQueen87]

There is also this:

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

:bowdown:

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

A guilty mind, perhaps.

[Ygrain]

:bowdown:

No need to - it's actually the one positive effect of talking to detractors, they make you look things up and know your Martin really well :D

[UnmaskedLurker]

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

Not only is it a dream Ned has had before (which he obviously has), as I have tried to note many times, it does not matter if the events in the dream happened word-for-word that way--what matters is that the events are consistent with what Ned believes happened. So it does not matter if Hightower actually said the words "We swore a vow." What is important is that Ned--who has the benefit of the information he later gets from Lyanna--would find it consistent with what the KG were doing that they would say the things they say. And the content of what they say--including the way they react to the discussion of Viserys being on Dragonstone, the emphasis on their vows, the reference to not fleeing now, etc.--just don't make sense if Ned believes that the KG were only staying at ToJ to fulfill "vow" to Rhaegar but their "true" king is on Dragonstone. In context, the discussion makes sense only if Ned believes that the KG believed they were guarding the king.

[RumHam]

There is also this:

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

I'm not sure I understand, is this supposed to be evidence that it was a recurring dream rather than just an old one?

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm not sure I understand, is this supposed to be evidence that it was a recurring dream rather than just an old one?

It is evidence that it is the SAME dream. Whether he has had it twenty times before or only once before--it is the SAME dream as it was years ago--not one induced by fever. I think calling it a recurring dream is still appropriate (even if it is recurring from only one time before)--although admittedly not quite as precise as if he has the dream all the time.

[stateofdissipation]

Lyanna would never call Ned by his full name. She calls him Ned that's all.

The question would be where the dream ends.... with "now it ends" or "screaming."

"Kingsguard has higher standards and Kingsuard does not flee because we swore a vow." makes pretty clear which vow they are referring to.

The said brother is notorious for loyalty to the guy who condoned the murder of Rhaegar's children, and has six other guys with him whose silence cannot be relied on, either, especially if keeping Rhaegar's heir secret equals treason. Just saying.

Yes, this has been noted before, but it doesn't make your observation any less worthy :-)

And what agreement could they reach? Their king is Jon and they want to defend his birthright. Ned's king is Robert and he will not support Jon's claim. Letting the KG leave with the kid equals to sowing seeds of a future civil war.

Yet it still doesn't explain why all three of them stayed at ToJ, why they never show any concern about Viserys and why they invoke their vows and not an order.

Anyone on a good horse. Ned travelled with his army to Storms' End first. Plus, there is an option of a raven to Starfall and a messenger from there.

Absent?

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

Here you have Lyanna lumped into the ToJ scene right at the very beginning, and then there is Lyanna again and the promise..

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

“Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again.

“I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise …”

It doesn't matter that it is actually Vayon Poole waking Ned; the important thing is that his subconsciousness firmly connects Lyanna and the promise to the whole scene.

There is also this:

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

"Kingsguard has higher standards and Kingsuard does not flee because we swore a vow." makes pretty clear which vow they are referring to.

He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling in the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--aGoT page 607

There is no connection between the vow, and fleeing. The "because" is a fan addition.

The said brother is notorious for loyalty to the guy who condoned the murder of Rhaegar's children, and has six other guys with him whose silence cannot be relied on, either, especially if keeping Rhaegar's heir secret equals treason. Just saying.

Instead , they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys' pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard had to do to prove himself innocent was... well, not burn.--aCoK 721

When the fire was blazing Brandon was brought in. His hands were chained behind his back, and around his neck was a wet leathern cord attached to a device the king had brought from Tyrosh. His legs were free though and his longsword was set down just out of his reach--aCoK 721

Next he would start to cook, Aerys promised... unless his son could free him. The more he struggled, the tighter the cord consrticted around his throat. In the end, he strangled himself.--aCoK 721

"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."--Jamie Lannister-aCoK 721

Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar with the help of Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lyanna_Stark#cite_note-aSoIaF_App-16

The said kingsguard were notorious for loyalty to the king that murdered said brother's father and brother and kidnapping of the sister.

And what agreement could they reach? Their king is Jon and they want to defend his birthright. Ned's king is Robert and he will not support Jon's claim. Letting the KG leave with the kid equals to sowing seeds of a future civil war.

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Yet it still doesn't explain why all three of them stayed at ToJ, why they never show any concern about Viserys and why they invoke their vows and not an order.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.--aGoT page 410

The remainder is part of Shaw's question. and has already been answered http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

[RumHam]

It is evidence that it is the SAME dream. Whether he has had it twenty times before or only once before--it is the SAME dream as it was years ago--not one induced by fever. I think calling it a recurring dream is still appropriate (even if it is recurring from only one time before)--although admittedly not quite as precise as if he has the dream all the time.

Oooh I see now. But Martin did say that it was a fever dream, not a literal record of what happened. It's still the best record we have for now.

Personally the few times I've had recurring dreams, things changed each time. Sometimes the entire setting of the dream would be different, but it was still the same recurring dream because of what happened.

[Kingmonkey]

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

Excellent catch! I think that safely confirms how we should interpret "old". It doesn't preclude the possibility that it used to be a recurring dream and just hasn't recurred for a long time of course, but clearly indicates it's not a regular dream for him now. Of course this raises the interesting question of what is it that caused Ned's subconscious to dredge up that old dream at that time. It could be as simple as the fact that he just got into a fight with a King's Guard, but that seems rather mundane.

Oooh I see now. But Martin did say that it was a fever dream, not a literal record of what happened. It's still the best record we have for now.

Personally the few times I've had recurring dreams, things changed each time. Sometimes the entire setting of the dream would be different, but it was still the same recurring dream because of what happened.

This. GRRM's "fever dream" comment could imply that the details of Ned's dream this time around was a more feverish version of the old dream.