Jump to content

R+L=J v99


davos

Recommended Posts

Re: the "fever" aspect of it all.



But when Ned awakens he's not disturbed by any change in the dream as opposed to when he's had it before. He's disturbed that he's having it again after so many years.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: the "fever" aspect of it all.

But when Ned awakens he's not disturbed by any change in the dream as opposed to when he's had it before. He's disturbed that he's having it again after so many years.

Yes, the fever may have made it more ethereal--with visions of "shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist." So it might have seemed more other-worldly due to the fever. But the essence of the dream--the information it conveys about the events of that day--are clearly consistent with Ned's understanding of what happened on that day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: the "fever" aspect of it all.

But when Ned awakens he's not disturbed by any change in the dream as opposed to when he's had it before. He's disturbed that he's having it again after so many years.

Yeah, that's somewhat problematic given that the "fever dream" line is direct from the source. I suppose it could be speculated that Ned had had the dream in a fever on a previous occasion, but I think the simple way to look at it is that any changes to the dream there might have been are not as significant as the fact that he's dreaming it again. We don't see any real introspection about the dream, which clearly indicates that the substance of the dream is entirely familiar to him. Perhaps there are fevered elements that indicate a shift in focus (the wraith-like appearance of Ned's companions, the clarity of the King's guard) that simply wouldn't concern Ned as much as the realisation that his return to KL has been making him think back on the events of the rebellion so much.

Edit: Ninja'd by Unmasked Lurker!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, that's somewhat problematic given that the "fever dream" line is direct from the source. I suppose it could be speculated that Ned had had the dream in a fever on a previous occasion, but I think the simple way to look at it is that any changes to the dream there might have been are not as significant as the fact that he's dreaming it again. We don't see any real introspection about the dream, which clearly indicates that the substance of the dream is entirely familiar to him. Perhaps there are fevered elements that indicate a shift in focus (the wraith-like appearance of Ned's companions, the clarity of the King's guard) that simply wouldn't concern Ned as much as the realisation that his return to KL has been making him think back on the events of the rebellion so much.

Also, the fever might explain how his defenses were lowered enough so that his subconscious would re-live this "old dream." Without the fever, he might not have been worn down enough to have the dream at all. He apparently avoided thinking about it for a number of years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The chapter has Ned on milk of the poppy... not with fever.


"A small cup," Ned said. "my head is still heavy with milk of the poppy."---aGoT page 412.


.


The "fever dream" comes from a SSM not the text and includes the warning.... our dreams are not always literal.


You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.


I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.


http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy



If one wishes to disregard the SSM. why bring it up in the first place?


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course the "fever dream" is not literal in all respects--there were no wraiths riding horses, for example, and the conversation may not be a literal word-for-word replication of the conversation--but rather a reproduction from Ned to set forth the critical information from that day through the conversation with the KG. So I agree that it is a fever dream (as the SSM states) and that it is not always literal. But I also believe that the evidence is strong that the core elements of the dream are a reliable re-telling of the situation surrounding the events of that day. Moreover, nothing in the dream would be inconsistent with Ned's understanding of the events surrounding and occurring on that day. In addition to being a fever dream--it is also an old dream. And clearly, Ned is troubled by remembering the events of that day.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's this party that everyone is speaking of?

Anyway, how do you know that Lyanna was screaming for Ned when she was in the tower? It only states that she was screaming. Lyanna might not have known it was Ned until he actually came up into the tower afterwards.

On another note, I do find it hard to believe that Lyanna would lock herself away voluntarily while Westeros goes to the dogs (no pun intended!). Unless she was fed some serious misinformation from Rhaegar but she doesn't come across as being that gullible or reckless. After her father and brother were murdered she would have tried to make contact- maybe it was then that Rhaegar turned from lover to jailer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyway, how do you know that Lyanna was screaming for Ned when she was in the tower? It only states that she was screaming. Lyanna might not have known it was Ned until he actually came up into the tower afterwards.

She might have been screaming, yes. But given how far gone she was with fever, I doubt she was conscious of what was going on outside the Tower except in passing.

On another note, I do find it hard to believe that Lyanna would lock herself away voluntarily while Westeros goes to the dogs (no pun intended!). Unless she was fed some serious misinformation from Rhaegar but she doesn't come across as being that gullible or reckless. After her father and brother were murdered she would have tried to make contact- maybe it was then that Rhaegar turned from lover to jailer.

And how does she know what is going on in Westeros until it's already too late--the war has begun and Lyanna is pregnant (very pregnant). Ravens don't go to the TOJ. And what was she expected to d after leaning all this information?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyway, how do you know that Lyanna was screaming for Ned when she was in the tower? It only states that she was screaming. Lyanna might not have known it was Ned until he actually came up into the tower afterwards.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. "Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is reason to believe that Ned is combining the "real world" in which there is an attempt to wake him by calling his name--with the events of the day. It is not clear that Lyanna would have been well enough to go the window and cry out his name--and she never would have called him "Lord Eddard" at that time--she was his sister. Given that he is being woken with his name being called, it is logical to conclude that this part was simply being integrated into his dream but did not actually ever happen at the tower. Another example of the dream not being literal. While we cannot be 100% certain that Lyanna did not scream Ned's name from the tower while the battle was occurring, it seems unlikely given how sick she apparently was at that time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course the "fever dream" is not literal in all respects--there were no wraiths riding horses, for example, and the conversation may not be a literal word-for-word replication of the conversation--but rather a reproduction from Ned to set forth the critical information from that day through the conversation with the KG. So I agree that it is a fever dream (as the SSM states) and that it is not always literal. But I also believe that the evidence is strong that the core elements of the dream are a reliable re-telling of the situation surrounding the events of that day. Moreover, nothing in the dream would be inconsistent with Ned's understanding of the events surrounding and occurring on that day. In addition to being a fever dream--it is also an old dream. And clearly, Ned is troubled by remembering the events of that day.

January 02, 2002

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

2003 Robert Shaw.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm

The questions have been asked and answered over a decade ago....

The attempt here seems to be a rather long winded way of trying to get around that. The attempt to "prove" that the kingsguard were guarding the king requires several inventions and exclusions. Repeating the inventions and exclusions do not make them true, Trying to hide them behind progressive misrepresentation does not make the inventions disappear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And how does she know what is going on in Westeros until it's already too late--the war has begun and Lyanna is pregnant (very pregnant). Ravens don't go to the TOJ. And what was she expected to d after leaning all this information?

Lyanna was fearless and I doubt she would've sat idle no matter how pregnant she was. She was a young healthy and very physical woman and even when pregnant she would've put up a fierce fight. Unless she didn't have any information like you say and something went seriously wrong with their plan- whatever it was.

This is just a theory (and probably been proposed a thousand times before knowing this forum)- I think they (Lyanna & Rhaegar) trusted Benjen with their plans and Littlefinger found out somehow. Littlefinger then intercepted Brandon (who was on his way to river run marry Catlin?) with the lie that Rhaegar had raped Lyanna and took her to kings landing. Littlefinger knew that this would incite Brandon (whom he hated and sought revenge) into a rage and lead to a very poor outcome for his arch enemy-as it did. It is from this act that littlefinger learn't the value of information. Perhaps Benjen felt so ashamed & guilty of keeping lyannas secret that he took the black after the war. Just a theory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lyanna was fearless and I doubt she would've sat idle no matter how pregnant she was. She was a young healthy and very physical woman and even when pregnant she would've put up a fierce fight. Unless she didn't have any information like you say and something went seriously wrong with their plan- whatever it was.

This is just a theory (and probably been proposed a thousand times before knowing this forum)- I think they (Lyanna & Rhaegar) trusted Benjen with their plans and Littlefinger found out somehow. Littlefinger then intercepted Brandon (who was on his way to river run marry Catlin?) with the lie that Rhaegar had raped Lyanna and took her to kings landing. Littlefinger knew that this would incite Brandon (whom he hated and sought revenge) into a rage and lead to a very poor outcome for his arch enemy-as it did. It is from this act that littlefinger learn't the value of information. Perhaps Benjen felt so ashamed & guilty of keeping lyannas secret that he took the black after the war. Just a theory.

As GRRM has stated, LFs injuries from the duel were very, very severe. He was moved as quickly as possible, but even then would have needed a long long time to heal.

LF had nothing to do with Brandons actions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lyanna was fearless and I doubt she would've sat idle no matter how pregnant she was. She was a young healthy and very physical woman and even when pregnant she would've put up a fierce fight. Unless she didn't have any information like you say and something went seriously wrong with their plan- whatever it was.

I doubt Lyanna knew about Brandon going to KL until after he and her father were dead. Once they were dead, there was nothing to be gained by leaving ToJ. She was not going to be able to stop the war, as by that point, the war had nothing really to do with her, but was based on Aerys demanding the deaths of Ned and Robert. I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna planned to stay in hiding until the baby was born, and finding out about the death of her brother and father--and finding out a war had broken out--would not give Lyanna any good reason to risk her child's life by leaving while pregnant. She could not change any events at that point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I doubt Lyanna knew about Brandon going to KL until after he and her father were dead. Once they were dead, there was nothing to be gained by leaving ToJ. She was not going to be able to stop the war, as by that point, the war had nothing really to do with her, but was based on Aerys demanding the deaths of Ned and Robert. I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna planned to stay in hiding until the baby was born, and finding out about the death of her brother and father--and finding out a war had broken out--would not give Lyanna any good reason to risk her child's life by leaving while pregnant. She could not change any events at that point.

Yeah you could be right. I agree that she would've only found out after Brandon and her father was dead and then what could she have done? However, she is a Stark with wolfs blood and it would've been honourable to let Ned know that she was not in fact being raped and had not been abducted after all. Didn't the rebellion last about a year? That's plenty of time to change many outcomes. It is more than likely she thought the rebellion would be quashed and then Ned & Benjen would be killed- her whole family wiped out. I don't think she would've sat idle with this possibility; she's a lady who believes in justice and stands up for the weak (knight of the laughing tree). The only reason why she would not have done so was if she was not privy to the information at hand or she was physically prevented from doing so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wasn't he nursed for a while until he was fit to leave? I may be wrong but wasn't it this time where he courted Lysa and got her pregnant?

Afer the duel, he spend a fortnight at Riverrun before Hoster had him send away. During this fortnight, Lysa indeed conceived.

Brandon wouldn't return for quite some time yet, though. Though we don't know what he went to do after leaving Riverrun, he returned with Rickard and 200 men from Winterfell by his side (until he heard about Lyanna, which caused him to split from the main group).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...