R+L=J v99

[BearQueen87]

Chebyshov

Ahhh thank you for that quote.

I always thought she might have been screaming because she was in labour. Maybe it was just afterwards and she was bleeding out I don't know.

Lyanna most likely died of puerperal fever, which kills the mother about 3-10 days after labor. In other words, Jon was already born when Ned arrived.

Yeah you could be right. I agree that she would've only found out after Brandon and her father was dead and then what could she have done? However, she is a Stark with wolfs blood and it would've been honourable to let Ned know that she was not in fact being raped and had not been abducted after all. Didn't the rebellion last about a year? That's plenty of time to change many outcomes. It is more than likely she thought the rebellion would be quashed and then Ned & Benjen would be killed- her whole family wiped out. I don't think she would've sat idle with this possibility; she's a lady who believes in justice and stands up for the weak (knight of the laughing tree). The only reason why she would not have done so was if she was not privy to the information at hand or she was physically prevented from doing so.

News reaches the TOJ probably very slowly. There are no ravens going to the TOJ (they work like carrier pigeons). So whenever R and L get news it's way after the fact and it's hard to do anything. As for telling Ned: she could have said something, but locating a man in the middle of a war is rather hard. And what was she supposed to say: "I ran off with Rhaegar?"

Remember: the rebellion is not about Lyanna. The rebellion only starts when Aerys calls for Robert and Ned's heads and is about getting rid of Aerys and his Targ family.

[MtnLion]

Yeah, but wouldn't the three KGs not have at least another reason to prevent Ned from entering the tower? If they were acting on their own - just protecting the new king, because they decided he was the new king - then they should have first tried to reach an understanding with the uncle of the new king, no?

No. The new king is in hiding, and safest to remain so until he is among supporters.

[MtnLion]

I think this is another good reason to look at Ned's dream as being first and foremost a dream. Not a literal recounting of events by any means, but a mishmash of memory, fantasy, assumption and interpolation that tells us a considerable amount about how Ned's subconscious regards the events at the ToJ, but is an unreliable narration of those events at best.

It is a dream, and likely paraphrases the dialog. It, however, must make sense to Ned. The key components in the correct sequence must be present. If the Kingsguard are at the tower for any reason other than their vow as Kingsguard, Ned must have that in mind, we would know. That the Kingsguard are loyal is in the dialog, even to Aerys. That they know of Robert, and consider him a usurper is in the dialog. That they know the whereabouts and company of Queen Rhaella and "Prince" Viserys is also in the dialog. That they refused to surrender to Ned is in the dialog. That they refused Ned's offer to allow them to withdraw to Dragonstone is in the dialog. The reason that they chose to stay, fight, and die is in the dialog "we sore a vow". Ned knows that they were honorable, until their deaths, as they swore their vow "to protect and defend the king, dying for him if need be".

[stateofdissipation]

I doubt Lyanna knew about Brandon going to KL until after he and her father were dead. Once they were dead, there was nothing to be gained by leaving ToJ. She was not going to be able to stop the war, as by that point, the war had nothing really to do with her, but was based on Aerys demanding the deaths of Ned and Robert. I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna planned to stay in hiding until the baby was born, and finding out about the death of her brother and father--and finding out a war had broken out--would not give Lyanna any good reason to risk her child's life by leaving while pregnant. She could not change any events at that point.

She was not going to be able to stop the war, as by that point, the war had nothing really to do with her,

"The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me, A crown... it was the girl I prayed them for, Your sister safe...and mine again as she was meant to be. I ask you Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike." --Robert aGoT 111

I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna planned to stay in hiding until the baby was born,

The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert's banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle ignoring calls to arms from rebels and royalists.--aGoT page 110

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts---.GRRM http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1040/

Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled Kings Landing... She had been born in Dragonstone nine moons after their midnight flight.--aGoT page 27

They apparently planned to stay in hiding until they made a baby and it was born.

Unless the news of Lyanna's brother and father being killed took longer than 3 months to get there.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

Lyanna most likely died of puerperal fever, which kills the mother about 3-10 days after labor. In other words, Jon was already born when Ned arrived.

Yes possible. I always pictured her laying in a pool of blood but it only states that the room smelt of blood - so it could be old dried up blood. Which begs the question- why didn't those shining examples of glorious KGs send for a Maester? !! And why wouldn't they send for a wet nurse if Lyanna was sick and dying.

"News reaches the TOJ probably very slowly. There are no ravens going to the TOJ (they work like carrier pigeons). So whenever R and L get news it's way after the fact and it's hard to do anything. As for telling Ned: she could have said something, but locating a man in the middle of a war is rather hard. And what was she supposed to say: "I ran off with Rhaegar?"

Remember: the rebellion is not about Lyanna. The rebellion only starts when Aerys calls for Robert and Ned's heads and is about getting rid of Aerys and his Targ family."

Benjen was in Winterfell so he would at least be easy to reach.

Did GRRM actually state that LF had nothing to do with Brandon being informed of Lyanna & Rhaegar or did he just say that LFs injuries were severe....?

[BearQueen87]

Ben would not have been easy to reach from the TOJ. R and L have no ravens. And again, what is Lyanna supposed to say: "I ran off with Rhaegar. He's not raping me. Stop the war!" Remember: the war is NOT about Lyanna. Also, I strongly suspect that Benjen already knows a lot more than we do.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Understand that puerperal fever can be accompanied with continued bleeding, so the blood can be relatively fresh even if birth was 3-10 days prior. We have a clue that there were servants at ToJ at that time (Howland is with others when they find Ned over Lyanna's body--those others presumably were servants as everyone else specifically mentioned would be dead). So there might have been a maester or wet nurse (Wylla?) there at the time. But maybe not--it takes time to send word to wherever they were getting support (probably Starfell) and then to get someone back. And a maester could only be called if 100% sure the maester remains loyal to the Targ dynasty. So there were other considerations--the primary duty was to keep Jon safe and not really to keep Lyanna safe to the extent helping her put Jon at more risk by making their location more likely to be found out by the rebels.

[MtnLion]

This is just a theory (and probably been proposed a thousand times before knowing this forum)- I think they (Lyanna & Rhaegar) trusted Benjen with their plans and Littlefinger found out somehow. Littlefinger then intercepted Brandon (who was on his way to river run marry Catlin?) with the lie that Rhaegar had raped Lyanna and took her to kings landing. Littlefinger knew that this would incite Brandon (whom he hated and sought revenge) into a rage and lead to a very poor outcome for his arch enemy-as it did. It is from this act that littlefinger learn't the value of information. Perhaps Benjen felt so ashamed & guilty of keeping lyannas secret that he took the black after the war. Just a theory.

I have been searching for the SSM that refutes Littlefinger participating in events. It says something about Brandon responding to Littlefinger's challenge after the winter . . . Brandon wounded Littlefinger so severely that he could not be moved for a fortnight, but as soon as they could move Littlefinger, he was sent on his way in a litter. Brandon cannot have been away for longer than a "short time" on his errand, so I don't think it was too much more than the fortnight.

[sj4iy]

Ben would not have been easy to reach from the TOJ. R and L have no ravens. And again, what is Lyanna supposed to say: "I ran off with Rhaegar. He's not raping me. Stop the war!" Remember: the war is NOT about Lyanna. Also, I strongly suspect that Benjen already knows a lot more than we do.

And of course, there's nothing saying that Lyanna didn't plan on trying to contact her family, but soon after she left Brandon went and got himself killed, along with his father. Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions SHOULDN'T have caused a war, but that's what happens when a hot head meets a madman.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

And of course, there's nothing saying that Lyanna didn't plan on trying to contact her family, but soon after she left Brandon went and got himself killed, along with his father. Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions SHOULDN'T have caused a war, but that's what happens when a hot head meets a madman.

Yes agree!

Who was it who gave Brandon the misinformation? Brandon was absolutely sure that Rhaegar viscously abducted Lyanna and was definitely in KL. If it weren't LF on his way out of Riverrun and Brandon on his way in, then who? Lysa? Did Benjen make up the 'lie' with some mistaken belief it would protect his sister and never come clean with it throughout the entire war?

[Jon Snow Bengal]

I have been searching for the SSM that refutes Littlefinger participating in events. It says something about Brandon responding to Littlefinger's challenge after the winter . . . Brandon wounded Littlefinger so severely that he could not be moved for a fortnight, but as soon as they could move Littlefinger, he was sent on his way in a litter. Brandon cannot have been away for longer than a "short time" on his errand, so I don't think it was too much more than the fortnight.

It's possible they could've crossed paths which is when Brandon deviated on his path to Riverrun and headed straight for KL.

[stateofdissipation]

Lyanna most likely died of puerperal fever, which kills the mother about 3-10 days after labor. In other words, Jon was already born when Ned arrived.

News reaches the TOJ probably very slowly. There are no ravens going to the TOJ (they work like carrier pigeons). So whenever R and L get news it's way after the fact and it's hard to do anything. As for telling Ned: she could have said something, but locating a man in the middle of a war is rather hard. And what was she supposed to say: "I ran off with Rhaegar?"

Remember: the rebellion is not about Lyanna. The rebellion only starts when Aerys calls for Robert and Ned's heads and is about getting rid of Aerys and his Targ family.

Lyanna most likely died of puerperal fever, which kills the mother about 3-10 days after labor. In other words, Jon was already born when Ned arrived.

Puerperal fever is about 400 years too soon...

the distinct name, “puerperal fever” appears in historical records only from the early 18th century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever

For pueperal fever to be cause of death for Lyanna Ned had to make a minimum of 50 miles a day from the Trident to King's Landing,over Storm's End and on to the tower 1300 miles. Assuming that one would like the news of the sack to arrive only after the baby is born, news could only travel at 7/6ths tp 7/5ths of Ned's speed.

Granting the anachronism and the very specific travel requirements...

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409 paperback.

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. .---aGoT page 410 paperback

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650 paperback.

"That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."- AFfC p. 21

"Bed of blood" is a term linked with childbirth. Elia was bedridden for half a year following the birth of her daughter: not bed-of-blood ridden..or bloody-bedridden.

Granting an extension of the term bed of blood to mean childbirth and up to 10 days after.

"I was with her when she died." Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and father." He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried in that room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been as faint as a whisper, but when he had given his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They found him still holding her body. Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his, Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was... fond of flowers."--aGoT page 40

Cause of death is still not listed as "fever"

Granting the anachronism, very specific travel requirements, the extension of the term, and cause of death.

Lyanna died some time after the showdown.

News reaches the TOJ probably very slowly. There are no ravens going to the TOJ (they work like carrier pigeons). So whenever R and L get news it's way after the fact and it's hard to do anything.

On the one hand we assert that news reaches the tower slowly before the battle of the bells News takes months to reach the tower. After kings landing, the news makes it there in a matter of weeks.

As for telling Ned: she could have said something, but locating a man in the middle of a war is rather hard. And what was she supposed to say: "I ran off with Rhaegar?"

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.--GRRM

Remember: the rebellion is not about Lyanna. The rebellion only starts when Aerys calls for Robert and Ned's heads and is about getting rid of Aerys and his Targ family.

"The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me, A crown... it was the girl I prayed them for, Your sister safe...and mine again as she was meant to be. I ask you Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike." --Robert aGoT 111

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes agree!

Who was it who gave Brandon the misinformation? Brandon was absolutely sure that Rhaegar viscously abducted Lyanna and was definitely in KL. If it weren't LF on his way out of Riverrun and Brandon on his way in, then who? Lysa? Did Benjen make up the 'lie' with some mistaken belief it would protect his sister and never come clean with it throughout the entire war?

It appears that virtually everyone assumes Lyanna has been kidnapped. I don't know that anyone specifically had to give this information to Brandon. Simply not having "inside" information to the contrary would lead to this assumption. in his mind--why else would Lyanna disappear with Rhaegar? It was impossible for Brandon to consider the possibility that Lyanna went willingly. Rhaegar was married to Elia and Lyanna was engaged to Robert. What possible reason could there be for Lyanna to agree to leave with Rhaegar?--at least in Brandon's mind. And I am not so sure that Brandon assumed that Rhaegar was at KL as Brandon assumed that Aerys knew where Rhaegar was and could produce him.

[Ser Leftwich]

The idea that Lyanna spent some time at Harrenhal between the Tourney and the kidnapping/abduction has been around for a bit now.

Let's extend that to another person who could have been at HH, after the Tourney: Ashara Dayne.

1) She could have have been sent away from court because she got pregnant. (Though when she was pregnant is not 100% confirmed.)

2) She could have been staying with the Whent girl and Lyanna for learning/teaching more courtly manners.

3) Maybe some sort of arrangement for Lyanna to get to know Ashara (and vice versa) in the hopes of a Ned-Ashara match.

4) If she was someone who was 'close' with Brandon, she could have possibly been his 'errand,' after the duel with LF. Harrenhal is in reasonable proximity to Riverrun for Brandon to only be away a "short time."

Thoughts?

[Jon Snow Bengal]

Understand that puerperal fever can be accompanied with continued bleeding, so the blood can be relatively fresh even if birth was 3-10 days prior. We have a clue that there were servants at ToJ at that time (Howland is with others when they find Ned over Lyanna's body--those others presumably were servants as everyone else specifically mentioned would be dead). So there might have been a maester or wet nurse (Wylla?) there at the time. But maybe not--it takes time to send word to wherever they were getting support (probably Starfell) and then to get someone back. And a maester could only be called if 100% sure the maester remains loyal to the Targ dynasty. So there were other considerations--the primary duty was to keep Jon safe and not really to keep Lyanna safe to the extent helping her put Jon at more risk by making their location more likely to be found out by the rebels.

All excellent points. But if that is true then a lot more people than Ned Stark and Howland Reed know the true identify of Jon. I read online some theory that it was Ned in his fever dream sensing Bran or Jojen.

Maybe is was Ashara Dayne- Jon actually has a blonde twin which she takes to KL & is intercepted by Varys who convinces her the boy is not safe and hatches a plan for the boy to be raised as Aegon and she becomes..... Septa Lemore! Badum Tish! :)

[Jon Snow Bengal]

It appears that virtually everyone assumes Lyanna has been kidnapped. I don't know that anyone specifically had to give this information to Brandon. Simply not having "inside" information to the contrary would lead to this assumption. in his mind--why else would Lyanna disappear with Rhaegar? It was impossible for Brandon to consider the possibility that Lyanna went willingly. Rhaegar was married to Elia and Lyanna was engaged to Robert. What possible reason could there be for Lyanna to agree to leave with Rhaegar?--at least in Brandon's mind. And I am not so sure that Brandon assumed that Rhaegar was at KL as Brandon assumed that Aerys knew where Rhaegar was and could produce him.

Wasn't Brandon prancing around KL yelling for Rhaegar to "come out and die"? This shows that he definitely thinks he is in there. Agree that Brandon is so hot headed that he would've been quick to believe what he was told and take quick action. But he needs a bit of information from someone to take that action. Who saw Rhaegar? Who saw or knew that Rhaegar & Lyanna left? Why would he assume she was actually abducted by Rhaegar and not just out horse riding like she always is?

[UnmaskedLurker]

All excellent points. But if that is true then a lot more people than Ned Stark and Howland Reed know the true identify of Jon. I read online some theory that it was Ned in his fever dream sensing Bran or Jojen.

Maybe is was Ashara Dayne- Jon actually has a blonde twin which she takes to KL & is intercepted by Varys who convinces her the boy is not safe and hatches a plan for the boy to be raised as Aegon and she becomes..... Septa Lemore! Badum Tish! :)

I agree that there are others who know who Jon is--Wylla presumably knows his true identity (she certainly knows she is not his mother). But I tend to suspect that these people were the most loyal servants of Starfell and would take the secret to their graves.

I will refrain from commenting on the Ashara speculation. My personal leaning is that Septa Lemore is (f)Aegon's mother--just not Ashara (but rather Illyrio's wife/Varys's sister)--but I really don't feel strongly that we have enough clues to figure out if Septa Lemore is really someone else we otherwise know about.

[Lord Varys]

Somebody must have told Brandon. Wherever Lyanna was, she most likely had some Stark guards with her, who, in turn could have informed Brandon/Rickard. If she had only been with Whent people, a story about an abduction would most likely never have reached Brandon, considering that the Whents were effectively Rhaegar's men.

On the events at the Tower:

There must have been some sort of failed negotiation. Considering Ned's state of mind my best guess would be that he rode down there with a vengeance, still clinging the image of 'rapist Rhaegar', determined to save his sister from her captivity. The fact that he and his men fought and killed the three KG, strongly suggests that he and his men were very determined, perhaps even in a rage.

If Ned had already known about Lyanna's child/pregnancy, the cause of the fight could have been that he intended to claim the child for House Stark, just as he wanted his sister to come home. At this point, I could also have intended to dissolve the betrothal between Robert and Lyanna (following their very severe fallout at KL). The KGs - and possibly even Lyanna - may have been opposed to that idea. In fact, it's possible that Lyanna asked Ned to ensure her son's rise to throne - the idea that she (and the KG) were that afraid of Robert's Targaryen hatred at this point makes little sense, since neither should have been privy to details of the Sack - and even if they were, it was Lannister treason, not Baratheon cruelty.

I'd also not be surprised if Lyanna had not yet given birth when Ned arrived. She could have died in childbirth - not of a puerperal fever, but of injuries caused during a premature/sudden birth (in turn caused by the stress of the fight between Ned and the KG). If that was the case, then Ned himself could have been the one who caused the death of his sister.

If Rhaegar did not inform Lyanna that he was coming to take her, if she was truly abducted, and if he intended to impregnate her own with her leave (and perhaps only after they had married), it would be easily imaginable that the whole thing took a certain amount of talking, journeying, and convincing. They would then have only gone to the Tower - which would have only then be called 'the Tower of Joy' when they decided to spent their extended honeymoon there - after quite some time. And it's also always possible that Lyanna did not conceive a child at once...

[Julia Martell]

Just inviting everyone to the Guess the pairing's favourite sexual position thread!

We've decided Rhaegar and Lyanna were kinky, btw.

[J. Stargaryen]

We can only speculate as to what Wylla's role in the R+L=J/ToJ affair was, but I think GRRM gave us a pretty big clue in Dance that she knows the truth of Jon's parentage. Recall this speech from Wylla Manderly in Davos III.

“Hush, child,” said Lady Leona. “You heard your lord grandfather. Hush! You know nothing.”
“I know about the promise,” insisted the girl. “Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf’s Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!”

- ADwD, Davos III

"You know nothing" is almost exclusively directed at Jon Snow. Wylla responds to this by saying: "I know about the promise." Which echoes Promise me, Ned. I've seen plenty of crackpot ideas about why this Manderly girl is named Wylla, but I'm pretty sure GRRM is just using that name to give us a hint about Wylla the wet nurse, and possibly her role and/or what she knows. And I think this tells us that she knows about the promise Lyanna secured from Ned.

Also, compare the last part of Wylla Manderley's speech with the letter Lyanna Mormont sends to Stannis earlier in Dance.

Jon took a knee. The king frowned at him, and rattled the parchment angrily. “Rise. Tell me, who is Lyanna Mormont?”
“One of Lady Maege’s daughters, Sire. The youngest. She was named for my lord father’s sister.”
“To curry your lord father’s favor, I don’t doubt. I know how that game is played. How old is this wretched girl child?”
Jon had to think a moment. “Ten. Or near enough to make no matter. Might I know how she has offended Your Grace?”
Stannis read from the letter. “Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK.”

- ADwD, Jon I

Curious that GRRM uses those names to express a similar sentiment.