[Spoilers All] Two Night's Watch/Their 'True' History; The Others' Purpose; TNK; Etc

[Ice Queen]

Since we pretty much agree on main points, I'll just deal with this one

I do not see these words as a threat, but as a statement of the inevitable and the statement of being utterly prepared to deal with winter that takes others (no pun intended) by surprise. I see it as a statement of people who conquered winter, who live in a shelter that winter cannot touch, with its warm streams and winter gardens - Winterfell.

Also, talking about the female Other or a lack of her, I'd point out to the symbolism of a blue rose, a winter rose grown in the gardens of WInterfell only to be plucked by Beal the Bard and left instead of a Stark daughter. Beal the Bard was King beyond the Wall, not just a bard. And blue is important in this story, the story of crowning of Lyanna, which is inspired by Beal the Bard, Dany's vision in HotU (again the Targs) and the story of the Others and their blue eyes. I believe there must be a connection there, but I'm not sure how to make it yet. Also, Mance likes to pose as a bard and uses an anagram of Beal - Abel. I'm probably crackpoting there, but can it be said that a blue rose in the Wall actually does not mean Jon Snow, but the Others while the blue rose that ended up hidden in the crypts of Winterfell with her child can also mean that dead Starks in the crypts are also the Others. Stop me now.

Whoa to that last part. I've done a lot of thinking about the Others and the Starks but that they could be in lower levels of the crypts never once occurred to me.

I like it--excellent!

I always thought of the Stark words as a warning, but I think Winterfell may be the place where winter radiates from. The Others haven't been seen in 8000 years because in all that time, the Starks haven't been absent from it. Until now. It's too much of a coincidence imo that the Others have been gone for 8000 years and the Starks have been in Winterfell for the same amount of time. I think that they ended the Long Night the time-honored way: with a marriage.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. It's like in the Arthurian legends--the True King can't leave his kingdom. You could also reference the Fisher King and Poe's The Waste Land.

Some of the old Stark kings have characteristics of the Others; notably Ice Eyes.

[Blazfemur]

Whoa to that last part. I've done a lot of thinking about the Others and the Starks but that they could be in lower levels of the crypts never once occurred to me.

I like it--excellent!

I always thought of the Stark words as a warning, but I think Winterfell may be the place where winter radiates from. The Others haven't been seen in 8000 years because in all that time, the Starks haven't been absent from it. Until now. It's too much of a coincidence imo that the Others have been gone for 8000 years and the Starks have been in Winterfell for the same amount of time. I think that they ended the Long Night the time-honored way: with a marriage.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. It's like in the Arthurian legends--the True King can't leave his kingdom. You could also reference the Fisher King and Poe's The Waste Land.

Some of the old Stark kings have characteristics of the Others; notably Ice Eyes.

True king cant leave his kingdom. Why do you think The Night's King wants to break past the wall? He's a Stark!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

A frozen hell reserved for the Starks? That's one of Ned's fears.

[Blazfemur]

A frozen hell reserved for the Starks? That's one of Ned's fears.

chilling if you consider the queen imprisonment idea.

or

those held within the wall itself, would be considered a "frozen hell." the sentinels

[ummester]

What we have seen:

Others, generate wights

The Night's King, create an Other, from Craster's baby (no other form of generating an Other seen)

dead bodies, become, wights

What we have NOT seen:

An Other, create an Other (excluding TNK)

A living body, turn wight

A dead body, turn Other

A wight, create an Other

(sidebar: can wights, generate more wights? pretty sure they can)

I haven't read all of the thread - there is a lot of detail in it. Just wanted to note, that from a combination of the show and books, to me it seems obvious that.

The NK makes Others from Craster's male children - even Gilly says this in the book, that her babies brother's are coming for him.

Others make wrights.

I don't think this needs to be any more complicated than it is.

I do like the suggestion in the OP that the Others may be the 'true' Nights Watch. However, I have an issue with what are they watching against? If there is something else, it just seems too much. ie: I think a 3rd party would ruin the storytelling of ASoIaF thus far.

[Blazfemur]

I haven't read all of the thread - there is a lot of detail in it. Just wanted to note, that from a combination of the show and books, to me it seems obvious that.

The NK makes Others from Craster's male children - even Gilly says this in the book, that her babies brother's are coming for him.

Others make wrights.

I don't think this needs to be any more complicated than it is.

I do like the suggestion in the OP that the Others may be the 'true' Nights Watch. However, I have an issue with what are they watching against? If there is something else, it just seems too much. ie: I think a 3rd party would ruin the storytelling of ASoIaF thus far.

Thank you for your contribution, friend.

Basically we were trying to break apart the logistics of "reproduction."

Others make wights, agreed, while The Night's King can turn living beings into Others. And yes, Craster's male children, appear to be becoming wight. While TNK can create Other, i would assume as the basic idea of the thread, that it takes First Men blood as an ingredient to harness the Other in someone. Thus, the need to keep the bloodline pure (in craster's case, incest, and keeping the watch away from his daughters) would be a must. The more potent and pure the blood, the more powerful the gift becomes.

Logistically, perhaps The Night's King is pure-blooded first blood, and thats why he can do what he can do.

or not, of course. open to criticism as always.

Who may The Night's Watch (1) be defending against, if not The Others. Well, it's still early to be honest. Dragons? Whatever caused The Doom? Rh'llor?.

[ummester]

Whoa to that last part. I've done a lot of thinking about the Others and the Starks but that they could be in lower levels of the crypts never once occurred to me.

I like it--excellent!

I always thought of the Stark words as a warning, but I think Winterfell may be the place where winter radiates from. The Others haven't been seen in 8000 years because in all that time, the Starks haven't been absent from it. Until now. It's too much of a coincidence imo that the Others have been gone for 8000 years and the Starks have been in Winterfell for the same amount of time. I think that they ended the Long Night the time-honored way: with a marriage.

I like the idea also - but, why were the Others advancing south before Ned left Winterfell?

Unless, doh - actually :D

GRRM said that everything that happens in ASoIaF hinges on events that occurred 15 years before the start of the first book. people get very hung up on the Jon and Dany stuff - but they were born 14 & 13 years before the first book started.

When Ned and Benjin were in the Vale, Lyanna was off with Raegar and Brandon and Ned's dad were being killed by Aerys - that was like 15 years before book one and a time when no Starks were in Winterfell.

he he - Ned's death has nothing to do with it.

[ummester]

Thank you for your contribution, friend.

Basically we were trying to break apart the logistics of "reproduction."

Others make wights, agreed, while The Night's King can turn living beings into Others. And yes, Craster's male children, appear to be becoming wight. While TNK can create Other, i would assume as the basic idea of the thread, that it takes First Men blood as an ingredient to harness the Other in someone. Thus, the need to keep the bloodline pure (in craster's case, incest, and keeping the watch away from his daughters) would be a must. The more potent and pure the blood, the more powerful the gift becomes.

Logistically, perhaps The Night's King is pure-blooded first blood, and thats why he can do what he can do.

or not, of course. open to criticism as always.

Who may The Night's Watch (1) be defending against, if not The Others. Well, it's still early to be honest. Dragons? Whatever caused The Doom? Rh'llor?.

I like this thread because it starts to touch on ideas that I think are the larger story underlying the whole ASoIaF saga.

I would agree that male children, with the blood of the first men, are required for TNK to make an Other. I would also add that these children have to be given willingly, that they need to be sacrificed to TNK, or whatever power binds him.

And yes, blood lines have a lot to do with the mythology in ASoIaF, so the idea that Craster is was creating sacrificial sons by incest to keep the blood as pure as possible, is valid.

TNK may watch the watches, if this makes sense.

Consider that GRRM has also stated the story will conclude with an explanation for the strange weather in Westeros and that it will be magical. There is something tied into all of this here - I can't quite articulate what, yet - but I am sure of it.

[Blazfemur]

I like this thread because it starts to touch on ideas that I think are the larger story underlying the whole ASoIaF saga.

I would agree that male children, with the blood of the first men, are required for TNK to make an other. I would also add that these children have to be given willingly, that they need to be sacrificed to TNK, or whatever power binds him.

TNK may watch the watches, if this makes sense.

Consider that GRRM has also stated the story will conclude with an explanation for the strange weather in Westeros and that it will be magical. There is something tied into all of this here - I can't quite articulate what, yet - but I am sure of it.

It's almost like Westeros was once entirely magical and over time people have been taking the magic away. Winter is like magic kicking back - putting the people back in their place. The Wall, Nights Watch and TNK may have a common ultimate purpose - keeping the magic and people in harmony, somehow.

They do in fact, appear to be "given," per some form of an agreement. Now, remember too, Craster's last baby is at the wall, and mance's is with Sam and Gilly. That baby at the wall, per this agreement, "belongs" to the Others.

Oh i always consider the weather. That sounded weird. But the long night, endless winter, the fact the land beyond the wall is freezing, and the land of always winter is where Others dwell? Winter is coming, is a "moving" phrase. Winter comes with The Others. If the Others were in fact to invade King's Landing, King's Landing would become, The Land Of Always Winter. I believe winter is whereever The Others dwell.

TNK watches watches... Hmm. I can't immediately discount that, obviously, based on the ideas int he original post. I have to think on that. I do know, that if any of this is true, he's been watching ever since he was overthrown. The sheer timespan of it all makes me think it's more strategic. All I know is, this Night's Watch that dwells NOW at the wall, they dont know what's coming, and they dont even know WHY it's coming, because that 14th Lord Commander destroyed those records.

There may be truth to that. I would also reiterate though, The Others (especially in the prologue) were actively planning and on the move, before the Red Comet/Danaerys brought dragons back into the world. Then again, the red comet may be a different symbol altogether than the Others. But supposedly, it's stated the red comet brought the dragons, spruned by that blood ritual, and magic is returning because dragons are back. If this is at all true, then dragons are a rh'llorian magical force, because Others were already around and plotting before this happened.

And I am aware there were dragons in recent past (see the dunk and egg novels, etc), however, it appears the Others were always around, just secluded north of the wall. If there is a magical connection, then they are polar opposite magics (obviously). but i mean, they dont stem from Magic as a whole, more as, magic sub-segments. Does that make any sense at all?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I haven't read all of the thread - there is a lot of detail in it. Just wanted to note, that from a combination of the show and books, to me it seems obvious that.

The NK makes Others from Craster's male children - even Gilly says this in the book, that her babies brother's are coming for him.

Others make wrights.

I don't think this needs to be any more complicated than it is.

I do like the suggestion in the OP that the Others may be the 'true' Nights Watch. However, I have an issue with what are they watching against? If there is something else, it just seems too much. ie: I think a 3rd party would ruin the storytelling of ASoIaF thus far.

Actually, no. Gilly says the baby's brothers are coming, but the book does not specify that the brothers are now Others. When the regular pickup was disrupted, and one of the brothers returned empty-handed, it would make sense that the Others then sent one of their own to find the baby.

So we still lack proof that humans can be turned into Others.

Even on the show, Night's King does not look like an Other.

[Blazfemur]

Actually, no. Gilly says the baby's brothers are coming, but the book does not specify that the brothers are now Others. When the regular pickup was disrupted, and one of the brothers returned empty-handed, it would make sense that the Others then sent one of their own to find the baby.

So we still lack proof that humans can be turned into Others.

Even on the show, Night's King does not look like an Other.

Truly, in the books, we actually do. We dont even have any knowledge of a Night's King in the book. We have, 37 seconds, int he end of a single episode to base any ideas on haha. But youre right, there isn't anything we really have to go on textually. realistically, others take children that are males, and in return, craster and wildlings live. from there, we realistically know nothing

[ummester]

Long post in response to Lord Blazfemur, my bits in bold.

They do in fact, appear to be "given," per some form of an agreement. Now, remember too, Craster's last baby is at the wall, and mance's is with Sam and Gilly. That baby at the wall, per this agreement, "belongs" to the Others.

Yes, I would agree with that. Or, more correctly, that baby belongs to TNK. I think the babies are the Others, at least in so far as we and the characters in ASoIaF understand, at this stage.

Oh i always consider the weather. That sounded weird. But the long night, endless winter, the fact the land beyond the wall is freezing, and the land of always winter is where Others dwell? Winter is coming, is a "moving" phrase. Winter comes with The Others. If the Others were in fact to invade King's Landing, King's Landing would become, The Land Of Always Winter. I believe winter is whereever The Others dwell.

Perhaps, or perhaps winter (the magic of ice) is always in The Lands of Always Winter and the others can just take it south with them. Stay with this for a moment, I'm heading somewhere :D

TNK watches watches... Hmm. I can't immediately discount that, obviously, based on the ideas int he original post. I have to think on that. I do know, that if any of this is true, he's been watching ever since he was overthrown. The sheer timespan of it all makes me think it's more strategic. All I know is, this Night's Watch that dwells NOW at the wall, they dont know what's coming, and they dont even know WHY it's coming, because that 14th Lord Commander destroyed those records.

The sheer timespan makes me think of something else, though I would agree that the current Night's Watch has no idea what they are truly watching for, or in for.

Consider TNK is a human given over to the power of ice magic. The humanised custodian of that power who watches from north of the Wall.

The Starks need to remain in Winterfell, to keep up the human side of the pact south of the wall.

The wall sits in the middle - it is the physical, magical and literal barrier between the known and unknown in this saga.

There may be truth to that. I would also reiterate though, The Others (especially in the prologue) were actively planning and on the move, before the Red Comet/Danaerys brought dragons back into the world. Then again, the red comet may be a different symbol altogether than the Others. But supposedly, it's stated the red comet brought the dragons, spruned by that blood ritual, and magic is returning because dragons are back. If this is at all true, then dragons are a rh'llorian magical force, because Others were already around and plotting before this happened.

See an above post - it's possible the Others started moving when Rickard and Brandon were killed by Areys. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like this was around 15 years before AGoT (which is when GRRM says the events relevant to ASoIaF were set into motion) and that there would have been no other Starks in Winterfell at this time as Benjin and Eddard were in the Vale, whilst Lyanna was off with Raeghar.

Re the dragons, the south and fire magic - I'm building up to an idea your thread has given me.

And I am aware there were dragons in recent past (see the dunk and egg novels, etc), however, it appears the Others were always around, just secluded north of the wall. If there is a magical connection, then they are polar opposite magics (obviously). but i mean, they dont stem from Magic as a whole, more as, magic sub-segments. Does that make any sense at all?

Yes, this makes sense. What is more, I think dragons and/or fire magic were always around, also.

This is where I get a little out there - but not too much, and this is very plausible, when you think about it.

What if up isn't exactly north on a map of Planetos? What if it is somewhat northeast?

The North is still in the north - but consider for a minute that most of Essos is actually South of Westeros, not predominantly east. Dorne is more or less level with the top of Essos, spin the map down to the right a bit.

Now, the fire magic comes from a place opposite to the ice magic. Dragons can't go north of the wall, that is the limit of fire magic’s power. The Others can’t go south into Dorne, that is the limit of ice magic’s power.

Dragons coming to Westeros is fine, so long as there are Starks in Winterfell and the dragons stay south of the wall. TNK, the Others don't mind about this, as per the pact with the ice magic (for want of a better term). As humans were spreading in Planetos, a certain degree of fire magic was spreading with them - so a wall was made to ensure a balance.

The dragons waited a long time at Dragonstone before moving into Westeros originally, remember? The was probably some awareness that the opposing power to them existed there.

Perhaps the continents would be more correctly termed Northwesteros (the cold magic place) and Southessos (the warm magic place).

[ummester]

Actually, no. Gilly says the baby's brothers are coming, but the book does not specify that the brothers are now Others. When the regular pickup was disrupted, and one of the brothers returned empty-handed, it would make sense that the Others then sent one of their own to find the baby.

So we still lack proof that humans can be turned into Others.

Even on the show, Night's King does not look like an Other.

I don't consider book proof, show not proof - I consider them both sources of information for the ongoing plot of the universe. They are both destined to conclude in more or less the same place, right? They are both telling the same ultimate story - unless GRRM has lied to D&D and told them an ending he's not heading towards :D

And no, TNK would not look like an Other. The Others are babies turned into ice mages (humans given the power of ice magic by TNK). TNK was an adult human imbued with that power a long, long time ago - like a pure ice mage. Think elves and orcs, I guess - one is like a pure version, an original, imbued with the power to pass it down to sacrificial babies.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

See an above post - it's possible the Others started moving when Rickard and Brandon were killed by Areys. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like this was around 15 years before AGoT (which is when GRRM says the events relevant to ASoIaF were set into motion) and that there would have been no other Starks in Winterfell at this time as Benjin and Eddard were in the Vale, whilst Lyanna was off with Raeghar.

<snip

Nope. Eddard might have been in the Vale, but Benjen was not fostered out. He was at Winterfell before and throughout the rebellion because "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell." He didn't leave for the Night's Watch until after the war was over and Ned returned.

I don't consider book proof, show not proof - I consider them both sources of information for the ongoing plot of the universe. They are both destined to conclude in more or less the same place, right? They are both telling the same ultimate story - unless GRRM has lied to D&D and told them an ending he's not heading towards :D

And no, TNK would not look like an Other. The Others are babies turned into ice mages (humans given the power of ice magic by TNK). TNK was an adult human imbued with that power a long, long time ago - like a pure ice mage. Think elves and orcs, I guess - one is like a pure version, an original, imbued with the power to pass it down to sacrificial babies.

So essentially you agree that the Otherized humans are not truly Others? By the way, have you read my Wighting Theory?

[ummester]

No Lady Blizzardborn - I don't think I've read your theory. have you got a link? I agree that Otherized humans are the Others that have so far been seen in the story. I guess I'm leaning towards there being no true Other - just very old ice magic.

Ok, so if Benjen was in Winterfell, it wasn't that that caused the Others/ice magic to move/deploy.

Perhaps it was Raegar and Lyanna getting it on? Perhaps it was the conception of Jon, not his birth? Perhaps the idea that a warden of the North and a prince of the fire magic place making a baby upsets the Others (TNKs) sense of balance?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I'm thinking more like magic started to return. Or something happened way up north in their usual hunting grounds. Or it could just be that their hibernation period lasts about 8,000 years.

Here's my wighting theory.

Lord Blazfemur! I've just made a possible breakthrough and I can't believe I didn't remember this before. Old Nan says the Wildling women lay with the Others during the Long Night, having terrible half-human children. Half-human. Which means that the babies are not born Others, which they should be if the Others can turn humans into Others. You'd think they would turn their Wildling girlfriends into Others and have purebred Other babies. Extra side of crackpot: Val is descended from these half-human, half-Other kids.

[ummester]

I read your theory Lady Blizzardborn - the logistics seem to make sense. NW members who vow the old way are immune, live wrights being different to dead wrights and so on.

This may sound like a stupid question - but are Coldhands and TNK the same entity?

TNK/Coldhands could just be like the father wright, or original wright. Live wrights and Others could be the same thing.

According to the legend, the order of events was that the Others came in the Long Night, the were driven back with dragonglass and the Wall was erected. The 13th (or 14th) Lord Commander of the NW (TNK) gave a cold woman (possibly an Other woman) his seed, all records were destroyed and the Others were never seen again.

Seems to me exactly what the Others are is deliberately fuzzy and that whatever power they had has started existing in TNK.

How do we know that the Other Sam killed wasn't just a live wright, one of Craster's babies, or some other wildlings baby?

I'm starting to think that we won't see the Others, as such, that the Others from the Long Night were just live wrights, or people with the spirits/power of the Others in them. The reflective armour could just have been very cold skin.

Or, if the Others do show up, they'll probably be like ghosts, spectral shapes - like Mel's smoke baby but icy instead.

[Jon Ahai Targeryan]

Ever since GRRM said that the Others were misunderstood,people have come up with theories trying to make them secretly good.But if i may ask,why did the FM andCotF who were previously enemies come together to fight them?why would the starks and joramun come together to fight the Nights king? I think GRRM was trying ti say that we misunderstood them as mindless zombie bad guys.What we didnt know is that they are organised and have their own agenda which is nt good to living otherwise y would they raise the dead to fight their battles?

Also i have heard a lot of people sayin jon us going to be turned into a wright.it seems they are forgettin that the NW burn their dead y would his friends let his body not to be burnt esp now knowing the Others are back.

About female Others,we arent sure how many others are there in the first place.If they have been taking Crasters boys for sometym they must have been raising them somewhere and probably in that same place is where there are some female Others.Maybe before the Nights king the Others were pretty much like the wildings before the Nights king organised them.They probably are taking crasters kids because they are too little to remember and can be raised up to hate humans plus maybe they can be able to walk during the day since they are half human.

About the NK wanting to be burried at the crypts below winterfell let me remind you that only the kings and lords of winterfell are burried there with exception of brandon and lyanna who are the only starks who never held the seat if winterfell.NOT ALL STARKS ARE BURIED AT WINTERFELL.

[Ice Queen]

I like the idea also - but, why were the Others advancing south before Ned left Winterfell?

Unless, doh - actually :D

GRRM said that everything that happens in ASoIaF hinges on events that occurred 15 years before the start of the first book. people get very hung up on the Jon and Dany stuff - but they were born 14 & 13 years before the first book started.

When Ned and Benjin were in the Vale, Lyanna was off with Raegar and Brandon and Ned's dad were being killed by Aerys - that was like 15 years before book one and a time when no Starks were in Winterfell.

he he - Ned's death has nothing to do with it.

What happened 15 years before the start of the books?

Aerys--fire--broiled Brandon and Rickard--ice.

Lyanna was with Rhaegar, Ned was in the Vale with Jon Arryn, and Benjen may have already been at the Wall.

That leaves no Stark in Winterfell.

[Ice Queen]

Ever since GRRM said that the Others were misunderstood,people have come up with theories trying to make them secretly good.But if i may ask,why did the FM andCotF who were previously enemies come together to fight them?why would the starks and joramun come together to fight the Nights king? I think GRRM was trying ti say that we misunderstood them as mindless zombie bad guys.What we didnt know is that they are organised and have their own agenda which is nt good to living otherwise y would they raise the dead to fight their battles?

Also i have heard a lot of people sayin jon us going to be turned into a wright.it seems they are forgettin that the NW burn their dead y would his friends let his body not to be burnt esp now knowing the Others are back.

About female Others,we arent sure how many others are there in the first place.If they have been taking Crasters boys for sometym they must have been raising them somewhere and probably in that same place is where there are some female Others.Maybe before the Nights king the Others were pretty much like the wildings before the Nights king organised them.They probably are taking crasters kids because they are too little to remember and can be raised up to hate humans plus maybe they can be able to walk during the day since they are half human.

About the NK wanting to be burried at the crypts below winterfell let me remind you that only the kings and lords of winterfell are burried there with exception of brandon and lyanna who are the only starks who never held the seat if winterfell.NOT ALL STARKS ARE BURIED AT WINTERFELL.

The thing about these books is that there is no "good" and "evil" a la Tolkien. I doubt the Others are as mindlessly evil as the people of Westeros believe. Like everyone else in the story, they want to survive. IMO the Great Other and R'hllor don't actually exist--they are forces of nature, just as magic is a force of nature. That's why the Citadel wants to stamp it out. They want a world where humans have control over nature, and killing the dragons are the first step in that process.

I think the Starks have forgotten their history. 8,000 years is a long time. I'm guessing that Sam the Wonder Man is going to find out something at the Citadel.

IMO Aerys killing Rickard and Brandon broke the pact that ended the Long Night.

And to add to my previous post, after Benjen went missing and before Jon got there, there was no Stark on the Wall, either.