[Spoilers All] Two Night's Watch/Their 'True' History; The Others' Purpose; TNK; Etc

[Blazfemur]

Yes, I would agree with that. Or, more correctly, that baby belongs to TNK. I think the babies are the Others, at least in so far as we and the characters in ASoIaF understand, at this stage.

Specifically, that's a good point, though of course we can't confirm it (YET!)

Perhaps, or perhaps winter (the magic of ice) is always in The Lands of Always Winter and the others can just take it south with them. Stay with this for a moment, I'm heading somewhere :D

Truth be told, we don't see any specifications of "Other" or ice magic south of the wall, so you may have a point. Unless of course, that magic, and The Ghost's magic are tyed to the Old Gods and it's actually Old God magic. the two may intermingle. But yeah other than The Ghost of High Heart, no specifications of Other to be found. Good speculation, actually.

The sheer timespan makes me think of something else, though I would agree that the current Night's Watch has no idea what they are truly watching for, or in for.

Through time, since ALL of the Night's Watch isn't aware of their true records beyond where they were destroyed, this "game of telephone" would scrutinize everythign through legend and time. It's common knowledge to hate Others and Wildlings, and ALL of them aren't aware that their records were destroyed (just through Sam's research, and Jon)

Consider TNK is a human given over to the power of ice magic. The humanised custodian of that power who watches from north of the Wall.

Well, the power had to have been granted to him somehow. Unless he was born with it. The Night's Watch of today would have you believe The Queen gave it to him -- i truly have doubts she exists (nevermind my 'she's imprisoned in Winterfell' theory, I actually believe there IS no female in Other form). Think of it, if the secret is First MEN, and all we've seen are MALE Others, and all they take are MALE children, it's a blatant lie that we only know from whatever 14th Lord Commander altered.

The Starks need to remain in Winterfell, to keep up the human side of the pact south of the wall.

It's interesting, because you mentioned Old Nan who said females, would lay with male Others. Perhaps there original children, were half-half hybrids as she says, but looked fully human. Perhaps the reason why they look human, is because by default, theyd only have 50% blood. And that's why, it's "easy" to turn a Craster baby, as the blood itself is more potent through incest.

The wall sits in the middle - it is the physical, magical and literal barrier between the known and unknown in this saga.

Love it, I would stress at this point though, that if there is truth to this, we have to separate Other (Ice) magic, from Old God magic, Rh'llor magic, and further. Other (Ice) magic must be secluded on it's own if it is to be contained. However, I still believe Bran only built the castles and forts, and it was the Others who erected the wall of ice. Ice being, their primary element. What blocks their power, isn't the wall, but perhaps the magic placed on it after it was cast up (The tunnel witht he weirwood door, for example, keeps everyone but member of the watch from passing. If it's magic-proof, or nulls Other magic, this could be the logistics we're leaning toward.

See an above post - it's possible the Others started moving when Rickard and Brandon were killed by Areys. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like this was around 15 years before AGoT (which is when GRRM says the events relevant to ASoIaF were set into motion) and that there would have been no other Starks in Winterfell at this time as Benjin and Eddard were in the Vale, whilst Lyanna was off with Raeghar.

Re the dragons, the south and fire magic - I'm building up to an idea your thread has given me.

Happy to hear it, definitely waiting. In regards to the absence of a Stark, im fuzzy on the timelines myself so i cant support or deny it

Yes, this makes sense. What is more, I think dragons and/or fire magic were always around, also.

If this is the case, we must also consider dragons the embodiment (harbingers) of Rh'llor, OR, they have nothing at all to do with Rh'llor.

This is where I get a little out there - but not too much, and this is very plausible, when you think about it.

What if up isn't exactly north on a map of Planetos? What if it is somewhat northeast?

The North is still in the north - but consider for a minute that most of Essos is actually South of Westeros, not predominantly east. Dorne is more or less level with the top of Essos, spin the map down to the right a bit.

Now, the fire magic comes from a place opposite to the ice magic. Dragons can't go north of the wall, that is the limit of fire magic’s power. The Others can’t go south into Dorne, that is the limit of ice magic’s power.

Dragons coming to Westeros is fine, so long as there are Starks in Winterfell and the dragons stay south of the wall. TNK, the Others don't mind about this, as per the pact with the ice magic (for want of a better term). As humans were spreading in Planetos, a certain degree of fire magic was spreading with them - so a wall was made to ensure a balance.

The dragons waited a long time at Dragonstone before moving into Westeros originally, remember? The was probably some awareness that the opposing power to them existed there.

Perhaps the continents would be more correctly termed Northwesteros (the cold magic place) and Southessos (the warm magic place).

I wouldnt even know where to begin with this hahahahaaha sorry lol

Ok, responses to yours in bold

[Blazfemur]

Brainstorming ideas:

Bran The Builder Stark, is an Other, The Night's Watch takes the wall from him, exiles him north, where he becomes and calls himself The Night's King.

OR

Bran The Builder Stark The Night's King, has his wife taken hostage (The Queen), by Joramun/The Night's Watch/The Last King In The North, they force him to build the wall of ice (he's still The Night's King, mind you and has his powers). They then exile him north when he's completed his task, and imprison The Queen in winterfell. It's said the wall took several lifetimes to build, yet if Bran The Builder Stark was The Night's King, his extende dlife would permit this.

[Blazfemur]

I'm thinking more like magic started to return. Or something happened way up north in their usual hunting grounds. Or it could just be that their hibernation period lasts about 8,000 years.

Here's my wighting theory.

Lord Blazfemur! I've just made a possible breakthrough and I can't believe I didn't remember this before. Old Nan says the Wildling women lay with the Others during the Long Night, having terrible half-human children. Half-human. Which means that the babies are not born Others, which they should be if the Others can turn humans into Others. You'd think they would turn their Wildling girlfriends into Others and have purebred Other babies. Extra side of crackpot: Val is descended from these half-human, half-Other kids.

Love it, i think i was touching on before, but consider the following:

Half-human, half-Other children, right?

it's First MEN blood. Perhaps WOMEN, cant be turned. Eh? EHH???? lol :P

Further, if the children they have together are women, they wouldnt be able to be turned. Only the male children. The children produced, if they CAN produce, HAVE to look human for any of this to work. And just because women cant be turned doesnt mean they cant possess first men blood, because they do (a la sansa, arya, etc), however maybe they cant be turned Other even if they tried, but Jon, Bran, Rickon, they can be.

This actually furthers my ideas that there truly is no female Other to speak of, if there's trutht o these logistics.

I like putting a definer on soemthing so obscure. Even if we're all wrong, it feels good to at least try to make something concrete from ti all

[Blazfemur]

ummester,

there is in fact evidence of first men/ice magic south of the wall. Robert visits Ned, they go out right before the hunt, when Ned tells Robert of Wylla. The following is an excerpt of what im talking about in regards to ice magic/Others:

The rising sun sent fingers of light through the pale white mists of dawn. A wide plain spread out beneath them, bare and brown, its flatness here and there relieved by long, low hummocks. Ned pointed them out to his king. "The barrows of the First Men."

Robert frowned. "have we ridden into a graveyard?"

"There are barrows everywhere in the north, your grace," Ned told him. "This land is old."

"And cold," Robert grumbled, pulling his cloak more tightly around himself.

P.S.- i also find it odd foreshadowing, how Robert and Ned both stop on a first men graveyard to do their talk of matters of state. Then they speak of Jaime, and how he was sitting on the throne when he killed aerys. But throughout the dialogue, there are lines from ned like "How did i get here" (we assume it's his position as hand), when he's in a graveyard with robert when he thinks this. "The Others take your honor!" Robert yells at Ned. (Ned's honor is with The Others? Or Their ways?) It's all odd twisted hints and foreshadowing.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If all this fervor will calm down a bit, I'll post my NK theories under my Advanced Crackpottery series.

[Blazfemur]

If all this fervor will calm down a bit, I'll post my NK theories under my Advanced Crackpottery series.

bring it on!

[ummester]

Ok, responses to yours in bold

So it looks like we are agreeing, in broad strokes, with how the Others, wrighting and cold magic seems to work. As Lady Blizzardborn noted, Benjen was probably in Winterfell when Rickard and Brandon were killed - so there has to be another reason for the Others/wrights deploying. My latest suggestion is the conception of Jon - but perhaps this is a mystery that is meant to be obscured until the end of the saga.

Re the map, have a look at this one:

http://www.sermountaingoat.co.uk/map/versions/speculative_map.jpg

What I am suggesting is that the Lands of Always Winter and the Red Waste are meant to be polar opposites, and how much magic pushes out of each is likely tied in with the weather cycles. There is a constant duality that is always striving for balance.

[Blazfemur]

So it looks like we are agreeing, in broad strokes, with how the Others, wrighting and cold magic seems to work. As Lady Blizzardborn noted, Benjen was probably in Winterfell when Rickard and Brandon were killed - so there has to be another reason for the Others/wrights deploying. My latest suggestion is the conception of Jon - but perhaps this is a mystery that is meant to be obscured until the end of the saga.

Re the map, have a look at this one:

http://www.sermountaingoat.co.uk/map/versions/speculative_map.jpg

What I am suggesting is that the Lands of Always Winter and the Red Waste are meant to be polar opposites, and how much magic pushes out of each is likely tied in with the weather cycles. There is a constant duality that is always striving for balance.

ironically enough, cant access that site at work, but this one works. server puts a block on certain sites.

the only point i was making, is that the wall *doesnt* necessarily block the magic of Other magic or Ice magic, as with the ideas of Winterfell's crypts, and the barrows i quoted a few posts above.

However, that doesnt mean that core elements of said magic, dont eminate from where youre suggesting.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Let me just throw this into the mix: Mel said that the Wall is one of the hinges of the world. I believe The Shadow near Asshai is another one. How many hinges are there, and what is their purpose?

By the way, can't recall if I mentioned it before but last week I came across an SSM that indicated the Long Night affected more than just Westeros, but Westeros--being close to the source of the problem--took the worst of it.

[Ulthosian Stark]

Love the theory and the work Lord B but when was was Val supposed to be Jon's Queen? And he a King in the first place?

I know Robb's Will names him, but where/when does Val come in?

I do hope she's the one who helps to heal him

[Jon Ahai Targeryan]

I remember someone im not sure it was Benjen or Ned telling snow that the starks have maned the wall for generations hence im sure before benjen there was another stark there.

About the killing of Rickard and Brandon ending the pact of the Long Night is not true as we are not sure what the Others were doing but my guess is they were regrouping and strengthening their ranks after the defeat and near extinction.No one has ever been in the Lands of Always Winter hence you cant say they were asleep.plus there is no pact between WW and humans ever recorded plus they speak totally languages.

[Jon Ahai Targeryan]

So it looks like we are agreeing, in broad strokes, with how the Others, wrighting and cold magic seems to work. As Lady Blizzardborn noted, Benjen was probably in Winterfell when Rickard and Brandon were killed - so there has to be another reason for the Others/wrights deploying. My latest suggestion is the conception of Jon - but perhaps this is a mystery that is meant to be obscured until the end of the saga.

Re the map, have a look at this one:

http://www.sermountaingoat.co.uk/map/versions/speculative_map.jpg

What I am suggesting is that the Lands of Always Winter and the Red Waste are meant to be polar opposites, and how much magic pushes out of each is likely tied in with the weather cycles. There is a constant duality that is always striving for balance.

Ive also thought the same what if Jons birth is the cause of magic returning to world? that is if he is tPtWP.think about it the birth of dannys dragons is itself was thru blood nagic so she used magic in that was already there to give birth to her dragons.Also Mel said her magic was stronger at the wall where jon snow is currently.wouldnt that make sense that her magic will be stronger when she is closer to Rlhors champion.plus dragonstone was the home of dragons for sometime and is closser to Essos where there are Dannys dragons.

plus there is the NK fiasco which he and his other wife managed to cross the Wall and live together while now the others seem to cant cross it.what if jon is the one amplifying the Walls magic making it stronger plus his birth could be the very reason why the WW started to make there move 15yrs ago

[ummester]

Ive also thought the same what if Jons birth is the cause of magic returning to world? that is if he is tPtWP.think about it the birth of dannys dragons is itself was thru blood nagic so she used magic in that was already there to give birth to her dragons.Also Mel said her magic was stronger at the wall where jon snow is currently.wouldnt that make sense that her magic will be stronger when she is closer to Rlhors champion.plus dragonstone was the home of dragons for sometime and is closser to Essos where there are Dannys dragons.

plus there is the NK fiasco which he and his other wife managed to cross the Wall and live together while now the others seem to cant cross it.what if jon is the one amplifying the Walls magic making it stronger plus his birth could be the very reason why the WW started to make there move 15yrs ago

Well I'm starting to think that Rhaegar (and possibly Lyanna ex Rhaegar) were aware of the importance blood lines had for the future of Westeros.

Re Dany, I agree the magic was already there and in use by Mirri Maz Duur. I think the resultant dragons may be a bit of a fluke, one off or last ditch effort by the warm/red magic to put something in the world. I don't think Dany would have been able to birth the dragons if she wasn't so far south and east at the time. I'm also starting to think that Dany will be fine if she stays out of Westeros but pretty much doomed if she returns and I think she might even become privy to this and decide to go back anyway, thinking she can conquer all.

What if Jon is destined to be the new NK? Whatever his destiny, I'm pretty sure Jon is being set up as the only one that can bring balance.

Re Lady Blizzarborn's comment about the hinges above, I don't think Essos is quite as long as it is drawn in many fan maps - I don't think Asshai (and Stygia, bit of a Hyperborean name there GRRM :D) are that far away from Qarth. I think this map is close to the relative distances in the world:

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/059/9/6/a_map_of_a_song_of_ice_and_fire_version_2_by_scrollsofaryavart-d4rabm1.jpg

And a map like this is way out

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/1/10/WorldofIceandFire.png

So I think there are only 2 primary hinges - one at the southeast/Shadowlands and one at the northwest/Wall.

[Jon Ahai Targeryan]

Well I'm starting to think that Rhaegar (and possibly Lyanna ex Rhaegar) were aware of the importance blood lines had for the future of Westeros.

Re Dany, I agree the magic was already there and in use by Mirri Maz Duur. I think the resultant dragons may be a bit of a fluke, one off or last ditch effort by the warm/red magic to put something in the world. I don't think Dany would have been able to birth the dragons if she wasn't so far south and east at the time. I'm also starting to think that Dany will be fine if she stays out of Westeros but pretty much doomed if she returns and I think she might even become privy to this and decide to go back anyway, thinking she can conquer all.

What if Jon is destined to be the new NK? Whatever his destiny, I'm pretty sure Jon is being set up as the only one that can bring balance.

Re Lady Blizzarborn's comment about the hinges above, I don't think Essos is quite as long as it is drawn in many fan maps - I don't think Asshai (and Stygia, bit of a Hyperborean name there GRRM :D) are that far away from Qarth. I think this map is close to the relative distances in the world:

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/059/9/6/a_map_of_a_song_of_ice_and_fire_version_2_by_scrollsofaryavart-d4rabm1.jpg

And a map like this is way out

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/1/10/WorldofIceandFire.png

So I think there are only 2 primary hinges - one at the southeast/Shadowlands and one at the northwest/Wall.

if jon is going to be the new Nk then how the hell is he one of the three heads?

Also in the tGoT show we saw that there is already a Nk and has 12 other comanders or something of the sort,how the heck is jon going to bypass all of them and be their king?

plus i dont see when he will be turned into a WW considering the NW burn their dead?

Also we expect the WW to begin making their move on the next book,how is jon supposed to learn things like turning humans into WW,raising wrights and all other ice magic stuff in the small period of time enough for him to become their king?

Will jon also abandon all his vows and moral inclinations and join the WW in their quest of killing all living things?it has not been explained that someone can reason with them and tell them not to senslesly kill living things,their basic reaction is to kill all living things on the spot same with any member of the NW.if jon saw a WW his instict will be to burn it not reason with it.if jon is indeed AA reborn he will do what AA did and beat the crap out of the WW back to the lands of always winter for anothet 8000 years.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

if jon is going to be the new Nk then how the hell is he one of the three heads?

Also in the tGoT show we saw that there is already a Nk and has 12 other comanders or something of the sort,how the heck is jon going to bypass all of them and be their king?

plus i dont see when he will be turned into a WW considering the NW burn their dead?

Also we expect the WW to begin making their move on the next book,how is jon supposed to learn things like turning humans into WW,raising wrights and all other ice magic stuff in the small period of time enough for him to become their king?

Will jon also abandon all his vows and moral inclinations and join the WW in their quest of killing all living things?it has not been explained that someone can reason with them and tell them not to senslesly kill living things,their basic reaction is to kill all living things on the spot same with any member of the NW.if jon saw a WW his instict will be to burn it not reason with it.if jon is indeed AA reborn he will do what AA did and beat the crap out of the WW back to the lands of always winter for anothet 8000 years.

Well in Lord Blazfemur's theory the Others are not the bad guys, nor is Night's King. He figures that NK et al are the only ones actually keeping to the Night's Watch vows. So if his theory is correct then Jon can be a head of the dragon and the new Night's King.

Dude, this is the show that cut out Strong Belwas, killed one of Dany's bloodriders who has important things yet to do, and made a ten year old Missandei into Dany's contemporary and gave her a love story with a eunuch. I wouldn't necessarily take that scene as canon. Besides, as with all sith, Jon can kill that NK and take over his spot. :D

In fairness to the WW, we do not know that their goal is to kill all living things. Aemon said that ice preserves while fire consumes. They may be trying to save something.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

bring it on!

I would but given the discussion on this and Other threads, it would probably be locked for being an unnecessary duplicate.

I remember someone im not sure it was Benjen or Ned telling snow that the starks have maned the wall for generations hence im sure before benjen there was another stark there.

About the killing of Rickard and Brandon ending the pact of the Long Night is not true as we are not sure what the Others were doing but my guess is they were regrouping and strengthening their ranks after the defeat and near extinction.No one has ever been in the Lands of Always Winter hence you cant say they were asleep.plus there is no pact between WW and humans ever recorded plus they speak totally languages.

We know for sure that there was at least one other Stark in the NW. Osric Stark was elected Lord Commander at the age of 10, and served as LC for sixty years.

Also there is Old Nan's certainty that NK was a Stark.

My theory on why the Others stayed away so long is that they have a long period of hibernation. :P

[Kienn]

P.S.: if any of you, agree on ANY of this propoganda, build on it. Even if you agree with let's say half. Build from it, to me this seems somewaht realistic based on the hints and facts displayed, but theoretically it goes against a LOT of where we're at. Take an idea -- run with it. Even if you disagree with a lot of this, tell me why. Build on what you CAN, agree with

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_clause_structure

"May", by definition, implies "may not" as well. There is no need to use both before every statement.

Please review these then edit your OP. I literally cannot understand half of what you've written since at least 2/3 of the commas are extraneous and therefore the it's impossible to decipher what you want your sentences to mean compared to the various meanings depending on the permutations of comma usage.

I do like this topic though. For some reason most discussion on it his squirreled away in the "heresy" threads... /barf.

One thing I'm pretty sure you missed is that Craster himself, and his son, may have king's blood. He may even be Bloodraven's son.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_clause_structure

"May", by definition, implies "may not" as well. There is no need to use both before every statement.

Please review these then edit your OP. I literally cannot understand half of what you've written since at least 2/3 of the commas are extraneous and therefore the it's impossible to decipher what you want your sentences to mean compared to the various meanings depending on the permutations of comma usage.

I do like this topic though. For some reason most discussion on it his squirreled away in the "heresy" threads... /barf.

One thing I'm pretty sure you missed is that Craster himself, and his son, may have king's blood. He may even be Bloodraven's son.

But by your own statement, Craster himself also "may not" have king's blood or be Bloodraven's son. :P

[Kienn]

But by your own statement, Craster himself also "may not" have king's blood or be Bloodraven's son. :P

Exactly, that's why I didn't have to write it out.

[Jon Ahai Targeryan]

Well in Lord Blazfemur's theory the Others are not the bad guys, nor is Night's King. He figures that NK et al are the only ones actually keeping to the Night's Watch vows. So if his theory is correct then Jon can be a head of the dragon and the new Night's King.

Dude, this is the show that cut out Strong Belwas, killed one of Dany's bloodriders who has important things yet to do, and made a ten year old Missandei into Dany's contemporary and gave her a love story with a eunuch. I wouldn't necessarily take that scene as canon. Besides, as with all sith, Jon can kill that NK and take over his spot. :D

In fairness to the WW, we do not know that their goal is to kill all living things. Aemon said that ice preserves while fire consumes. They may be trying to save something.

i just hope you have watched the t.v show,do the WW even remotely look good to you,just me an example in any story,movie,book or even legend where the good guys raise the dead to fight the other good guys and have giant ice spiders.

So fire destroys and ice preserves are you saying their goal is to preserve the living in ice till the winter is over cause that can be a good cause.

If we have read the same story about the NK then we know what the guy did was so evil that the nothernmen and wildlings teamed up to completely destroy him and erase him from history.....tell me again why the NK is a good guy

Also if jon gets a dragon and becomes the NK will he take his dragon to live with him in the Lands of Always Winter.

Im sure killing a king makes you a kingslayer and doesent make you eligeble to becoming king otherwise Jaimie would be on the IT right now.To the WW their king is like a dad,hero,high priest e.t.c killing him makes you public enemy no.1 and not a contender for his seat,besides for Jon to be NK he must be turned into a WW by the NK unless he has been groming jon for leadership i just dont see it happening.

Also jon being LC of NW had an oath to protect the realm of men from WW who hate anything with warm blood in their veins.

About the goals of the WW,GRRM might have said that they are misunderstood but he also said that they dont like us much and the reason they are moving south is the very same countries are invaded and inhabitants killed.So if you have discovered a reason for the WW to be good guys that GRRM doesnt know of please share,im all ears.