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Blazfemur

[Spoilers All] Two Night's Watch/Their 'True' History; The Others' Purpose; TNK; Etc

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To wrap it up, the 13 we saw in that episode, were The Night's King, and his Night's Watch. they werent the original 12 of the last hero, but he's maintained the number. Furthermore, the segregation of his other 12 from normal looking others, they wore blacks, the other Others, didnt. Those were his watch, amongst their numbers. And they will take back that goddamn wall, just you fucking watch :)


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Dragons perhaps Lady Blizzardborn? Or just people themselves, spreading across the world too quickly.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the IT is the literary object that best represents greed, desire, evil etc in the hearts of people in this tale.

In response to Blazfemur above, I prepared this - it's long but also elaborates on the hero mythology and how I am interpreting it:

I know, the idea for this thread originally started trying to focus on the male aspects of the Others, Blazfemure - but I think that is largely irrelevant. The Nights Watch is manned by men (or boys). It's a boys club because (as described in the book and show) men can only put duty, honour and their brothers first when they have no distractions like love, offspring, family ties etc. It's not a statement on wether women can be fighters, or not, so much as it is a statement on how men become related to a family via women - that love is intrinsically tied to women (from the male perspective) and that men can only live a loveless life of duty in the absence of women.

I think your theory/fan fiction is still focussed on trying to tie the legends together in a literal sense. Your trying to make a story out of it.

I do agree that the Last Hero and the Nights King are the same entity. I agree that this entity represents a Night's Watch methodology that was banished and covered up. I think the Nights King did something reproductive, something about family and love and that this is why the current Nights Watch bans it.

I don't think we will be able to form an exact story of what happened. ie Last hero went here, Nights King did this, Nights Watch changed this.

I think we will be able to work out what the themes mean and how they are relevant to the hero mythology in ASoIaF and the endgame for the series.

Last Hero - resolved Long Night by confronting Others
Nights King - had sexual relations with Others
Azor Ahai - stabbed a woman to bring the light

The answer is the theme presented by the 3 together. The answer that Mel is trying to resolve - what does it mean, why is there power in kings blood?

Mel is also very concerned with light and shadow. She comes from the shadow lands but worships the lord of light, for there can be no shadows without light, apparently. I just think Mel hasn't worked it out yet - light is meaningless without dark. There can be no dawn without night and the longer the night, the brighter the dawn.

So, let's consider Azor Ahai didn't stab a woman to bring the light but screwed a woman to bring the dark. The dark was needed to bring the light, so ultimately, Azor Ahai's child was there for the light, was there to inherit a new dawn - but Azor Ahai had to plunge the world into darkness to give future generations a new dawn.

When you look at it like that, the hero mythology just means a man and woman got together to bring a night, cleanse the land and prepare it for a new dawn. Quite beautiful really - but we have to get through the night first.

I think Rhaegar and Lyanna were trying to make that union - make the child that heralded a new dawn. But, like Mel, they have it ass about - the child will herald the darkness, to bring a new dawn to the world.

John, Dany, Stannis - anyone else that fits the prophecy in some way. Their job isn't to save the world, their job is to plunge it into darkness so that it can be saved. John is connected to the Others, that represent a certain power. Dany to the dragons, that represent another power. When the night is done, the Others and dragons will be gone and the world reborn anew - but the heroes have to destroy it first.

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To wrap it up, the 13 we saw in that episode, were The Night's King, and his Night's Watch. they werent the original 12 of the last hero, but he's maintained the number. Furthermore, the segregation of his other 12 from normal looking others, they wore blacks, the other Others, didnt. Those were his watch, amongst their numbers. And they will take back that goddamn wall, just you fucking watch :)

I do think something like that is entirely possible and more than just taking back the wall, they will help Jon reclaim the North.

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I do think something like that is entirely possible and more than just taking back the wall, they will help Jon reclaim the North.

Jon has more in common with TNK now more than ever, they were both betrayed by the watch.

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John, Dany, Stannis - anyone else that fits the prophecy in some way. Their job isn't to save the world, their job is to plunge it into darkness so that it can be saved. John is connected to the Others, that represent a certain power. Dany to the dragons, that represent another power. When the night is done, the Others and dragons will be gone and the world reborn anew - but the heroes have to destroy it first.

I like this. It certainly fits with the planned title of the last book, a "Dream of Spring".

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Jon has more in common with TNK now more than ever, they were both betrayed by the watch.

Yes, just imagine it was Jon's conception that brought the Others out of their icy slumber. Now, imagine it is Jon's death that will bring them to him and south of the wall.

When Mel sees it all, she is going to go 'oh shit, I had it ass about - time to take off my glamor face and get funky with the end times.'

I can't wait to see what Mel looks like under her glamor - I hope she is suitably otherworldly and horrific. I can see why GRRM thinks the ending of his saga may be more suited to cinema than TV, now - though I don't think any studio would make a big budget R rated FX extravaganza. Let's hope HBO gives the show enough budget by the last 2 seasons for all of this to look good on screen.

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I like this. It certainly fits with the planned title of the last book, a "Dream of Spring".

Which was originally a Time for Wolves. This makes me think we will see most of Dany's effects on Westeros in the next book and the Stark effects in the last book.

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Jon has more in common with TNK now more than ever, they were both betrayed by the watch.

When was NK betrayed by the Watch?

According to legend they followed him rank and file. It was his brother the KitN and Joramun who took him down (with help from their respective followers, of course).

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Dragons perhaps Lady Blizzardborn? Or just people themselves, spreading across the world too quickly.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the IT is the literary object that best represents greed, desire, evil etc in the hearts of people in this tale.

In response to Blazfemur above, I prepared this - it's long but also elaborates on the hero mythology and how I am interpreting it:

I know, the idea for this thread originally started trying to focus on the male aspects of the Others, Blazfemure - but I think that is largely irrelevant. The Nights Watch is manned by men (or boys). It's a boys club because (as described in the book and show) men can only put duty, honour and their brothers first when they have no distractions like love, offspring, family ties etc. It's not a statement on wether women can be fighters, or not, so much as it is a statement on how men become related to a family via women - that love is intrinsically tied to women (from the male perspective) and that men can only live a loveless life of duty in the absence of women.

I think your theory/fan fiction is still focussed on trying to tie the legends together in a literal sense. Your trying to make a story out of it.

I do agree that the Last Hero and the Nights King are the same entity. I agree that this entity represents a Night's Watch methodology that was banished and covered up. I think the Nights King did something reproductive, something about family and love and that this is why the current Nights Watch bans it.

I don't think we will be able to form an exact story of what happened. ie Last hero went here, Nights King did this, Nights Watch changed this.

I think we will be able to work out what the themes mean and how they are relevant to the hero mythology in ASoIaF and the endgame for the series.

Last Hero - resolved Long Night by confronting Others

Nights King - had sexual relations with Others

Azor Ahai - stabbed a woman to bring the light

The answer is the theme presented by the 3 together. The answer that Mel is trying to resolve - what does it mean, why is there power in kings blood?

Mel is also very concerned with light and shadow. She comes from the shadow lands but worships the lord of light, for there can be no shadows without light, apparently. I just think Mel hasn't worked it out yet - light is meaningless without dark. There can be no dawn without night and the longer the night, the brighter the dawn.

So, let's consider Azor Ahai didn't stab a woman to bring the light but screwed a woman to bring the dark. The dark was needed to bring the light, so ultimately, Azor Ahai's child was there for the light, was there to inherit a new dawn - but Azor Ahai had to plunge the world into darkness to give future generations a new dawn.

When you look at it like that, the hero mythology just means a man and woman got together to bring a night, cleanse the land and prepare it for a new dawn. Quite beautiful really - but we have to get through the night first.

I think Rhaegar and Lyanna were trying to make that union - make the child that heralded a new dawn. But, like Mel, they have it ass about - the child will herald the darkness, to bring a new dawn to the world.

John, Dany, Stannis - anyone else that fits the prophecy in some way. Their job isn't to save the world, their job is to plunge it into darkness so that it can be saved. John is connected to the Others, that represent a certain power. Dany to the dragons, that represent another power. When the night is done, the Others and dragons will be gone and the world reborn anew - but the heroes have to destroy it first.

Beautiful! Love it! Don't think it's necessarily going to happen that way but it's well-thought out and well-presented. unmester, do you write?

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Beautiful! Love it! Don't think it's necessarily going to happen that way but it's well-thought out and well-presented. unmester, do you write?

I write on and off - more off ATM. Perhaps I'm involving myself in this saga to try and turn myself back on?

How do you think it's going to happen? I'm becoming increasing certain that ASoIaF is going to get a lot darker before the dawn finally breaks. And I'm fairly certain that the whole 'lightbringer' thing is an abstraction - that is more dark before the dawn bringer. It's going to be difficult for GRRM to write a tale where Dany and Jon are essentially forces of destruction, plunging the world into darkness to cleanse it for the dawn - but I think he can do it. Jeez, I think I could do it with the groundwork already laid and I think he's a better writer than me :D

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I write on and off - more off ATM. Perhaps I'm involving myself in this saga to try and turn myself back on?

How do you think it's going to happen? I'm becoming increasing certain that ASoIaF is going to get a lot darker before the dawn finally breaks. And I'm fairly certain that the whole 'lightbringer' thing is an abstraction - that is more dark before the dawn bringer. It's going to be difficult for GRRM to write a tale where Dany and Jon are essentially forces of destruction, plunging the world into darkness to cleanse it for the dawn - but I think he can do it. Jeez, I think I could do it with the groundwork already laid and I think he's a better writer than me :D

Do you do NaNoWriMo? I do! I find it very helpful for motivation (which I lack even when I'm not suffering from burnout).

I don't have it all worked out yet, but I've had an idea for quite a while that the solution--or part of it anyway--involves flying a dragon into the Heart of Winter. Whether someone has to ride it, or it can be skinchanged for this (or a combination of both) is hard to say. I absolutely agree things are going to get much worse before they get better, and we will lose some beloved friends along the way.

I keep imagining different scenarios for how it will play out. One involves Jon and Dany being forced to marry, despite the fact that neither one is interested, because their child will be the hope for the future of Westeros; Jon dying in battle against the Others while Dany is kept safely away from danger during her pregnancy; Dany dying giving birth to the baby, and thus being reunited with Drogo; and a team of trustworthy survivors handling the regency and raising of the little prince or princess. I wouldn't bet on this happening, but it's one option.

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I wrote in NaNo NaNo one year Lady Blizzardborn, it is a good way to spur you on. My problem isn't that I can't weave a tale, or that I don't become totally engrossed as I'm weaving - my problem is being confident that the tale is worth telling. You have to believe in your ending, believe in what your tale is trying to say to really make it matter - I need to work out the point I want to express and form the tale around that. The NaNo NaNo story I wrote had 2 endings - because I just couldn't decide which way to go, in the end :)



Endings - damn endings. So many great writers deliver shit endings, when you think about it. Stephen King is a great (modern) writer (in that he's fast and was, in his heyday, in tune with the masses). I dig the way he structures his tales - but many of his endings suck. Even the immortal LotRs had some sucky bits in the ending. Endings and meaning are harder to nail than writers realise. And we live in such a pop culture, instant sale/gratification age, where story telling on the cinema screen has become terrible (for the most part), that the art of telling a really good tale, with a really good ending, is becoming lost - so I really hope GRRM nails it.



I can't pretend to know exactly how every detail is going to work out for every character in ASoIaF - that's impossible, I doubt GRRM knows :)



I do think we will see the Lands of Always Winter via ether Jon or Bran and that those lands will associate with Jon. I think Dany will associate with Asshai, perhaps by going there, perhaps not.


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I do think we will see the Lands of Always Winter via ether Jon or Bran and that those lands will associate with Jon. I think Dany will associate with Asshai, perhaps by going there, perhaps not.

think im going to take a break from the north for awhile, im definitely overthinking it, and it's only going to hurt the idea in it's entirety. however i will leave on this note, in regard to what you just said. on the map of westeros, if you go south east through asshai enough, geographically i think youd end up north west in the land of always winter beyond the wall (eventually).

i leave it for now, with a final quote:

Quaithe: "To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east."

Danaerys saves or destroys the wall, and the Others are confronted, on her way to Westeros. Through Asshai, through the land of always winter, through the Others, to the Wall, and then south toward King's Landing.

and that's it, i cant think on the northern riddles anymore. done for now. just for now. Perhaps she doesnt need Victarian's ships, or Moqorro's word, or Marwyn's cinnimon wind. Marching southeast on land is also an option

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Very good point about endings, unmester. My first novel did not end well. It wasn't terrible, but I might have been able to do better. The second one just came together beautifully. Haven't finished one since then, but I'm hoping to get that darn third one done next month.



For the record, if I had a vote about your story with two endings, I'd say use both. Put both in the book and at some point give the reader a choice, turn to the next page for ending one, or turn to page 300 for ending 2. I used to love choose your own adventure books when I was a kid. There should be books like that for adults.



As to tales being worth telling, of course they are. Someone, somewhere, needs that story. Might just be you, but it might be someone else, half a world away. Might be multiple someones else. :D



Archmaester Blaz, one last question and on the subject of Daenerys. Do you think maybe in that one vision where she was Rhaegar at the Trident and there was a torrent of water...maybe she switched from the Trident to the Wall, and the torrent of water wasn't the army of ice but the Wall itself? Just an idea I had.


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For the record, if I had a vote about your story with two endings, I'd say use both. Put both in the book and at some point give the reader a choice, turn to the next page for ending one, or turn to page 300 for ending 2. I used to love choose your own adventure books when I was a kid. There should be books like that for adults.

Well, that story was very adult and quiet horrific.

Have any of your novels been published?

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Archmaester Blaz, one last question and on the subject of Daenerys. Do you think maybe in that one vision where she was Rhaegar at the Trident and there was a torrent of water...maybe she switched from the Trident to the Wall, and the torrent of water wasn't the army of ice but the Wall itself? Just an idea I had.

i have to read it again, it'll take awhile. unless you could point me to the chapter ill read it first tomorrow

sidebar: in TWOIAF, didnt they say the Rhoyne fought with their watermancers to raise spouts of water against the attacking valyrian's dragons? it was just a glance over admittedly and i could be way off, but i do remember a part where the rhoynar used their watermantic abilities to ward them off, whomever "they" were.

i do have to read. but if there is going to be a torrent of water from the wall, it aint going to be from 3 dragon's dragonfire. it'll be the magic of the wall breaking, and it'll come all at once.

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i leave it for now, with a final quote:

Quaithe: "To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east."

Danaerys saves or destroys the wall, and the Others are confronted, on her way to Westeros. Through Asshai, through the land of always winter, through the Others, to the Wall, and then south toward King's Landing.

and that's it, i cant think on the northern riddles anymore. done for now. just for now. Perhaps she doesnt need Victarian's ships, or Moqorro's word, or Marwyn's cinnimon wind. Marching southeast on land is also an option

I think Dany will literally travel south east, stop at Asshai on the way and land at the Iron Islands - I think she will need the Iron fleet though. And I think Euron Greyjoy knows the way.

Remember Xoan Xhoan Daxos also gave her an old map and said she should be travelling south.

Trying to articulate this is hard :D I found a quote from GRRM where he says there is definitely a polar icecap, which confirms Planetos is a sphere and has (at least) one cold pole:

http://grrm.livejournal.com/215150.html?thread=13466222

I think Planetos' arctic circle is like Earth's antarctic. The big cold place is on top - Lands of Always Winter. Ulthos, or even Asshai, may be at the other pole (Mel talks about world pivots and stuff). So, going south from Asshai/Ulthos may send you back up to Westeros (if you go on the right bearing). I find it less likely that Ulthos is connected to the Lands of Always Winter, though, this is why I said earlier it all depends on where the equator is and what angle it sits on. Either way, once you pass the shadow, I think your direction reverses because it clouds a pole.

Planetos could be locked in an ice fire conflict because, before the Long Night, creating dragons in Asshai destroyed the southern polar region and the northern polar region responded. Now Planetos only has ice on one pole and shadows at the other pole - and that can't be good for the environment :D

But GRRM has promised a magical explanation for the weather, so this would fit. What is more it fits with Dany getting to Westeros, explains what Euron does (he just sails south and east from Westeros, until he is going north and West to Asshai) explains the Long Night, explains why the Red God is related to Asshai and all sorts of stuff.

I think that dragons, in ASoIaF, are a literal device for playing with fire, biting off more than you can chew and so on. People are the big bad in this story and dragons are their worst mistake. The Others are trying to preserve the world. This is why the Red God is associated with people and the Other portrayed as anti human. Ultimately, they are just 2 facets of nature - fire and ice.

TLDR - making dragons fucked the planet and passing beneath the shadow (Asshai/Uthos) is going through the southern pole.

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