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Blazfemur

[Spoilers All] Two Night's Watch/Their 'True' History; The Others' Purpose; TNK; Etc

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With Bloodraven, i have my side crackpot theory i need to stick to so i have to exclude him (I think he is, and was, dead, since bran entered the cave. i think the same magic keeping the dead OUT of the cave, is also keeping him IN, and he's blatantly CHAINED to those weirwood roots and is looking for a way out (a la, through bran, who will get hodor to carry him out). again, THAT is crackpot, but i like making guesses, and because of that i cant touch bloodraven in regards to this theory. i try to think outside the norm, gets me into trouble sometimes :P

ok, going through the oath per your post (my responses are in the actual quote):


Night gathers and now my watch begins

Old Nan's story says that Others came after the Long Night started. It is consistent with the line that their watch begins when night gathers, not before. It is also consistent with Bran's vision of a curtain of darkness in the Land of Always Winter. Darkness gathered and the Other woke from their hibernation. (perfect, i see it through THEIR eyes, night gathered, now i awaken and begin)

It shall not end until my death.

This is consistent with behaviour of Others. They fight until they die. (Loving this, and to reiterate, Others ARE alive, not dead, those are wights)

I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.

I think this part is crucial when it comes to the penal code the Others are imposing north of the Wall and Starks south of it. (I think I pretty much owned this before :P furthermore, living and die at their post, their post IS the wall, taken by the "new" night's watch, to fulfill their oath, they need to retake the wall for themselves)

I am the sword in the darkness.

This is a tricky one. Does it mean that the original NW = the true Lightbringer? (nope, they are literally the sword in the darkness, they are most active, and their powers most greatly demonstrated, at night [it appears, so far]. their presence is at night, and when they arrive, the air gets colder. their sword, they attack, at night. ot to say they're, vampire-like, a la, allergic to sunlight, but so far it appears most, if not ALL of their attacks, were at night)

I am the watcher on the walls.

I've already touched upon this, but I'd say that every magical place in Westeros is some kind of the wall, because it reinforced power against the ultimate darkness. So, that would include Winterfell and Storm's End, probably the Old Town and possibly the Red Keep. Harrenhal for sure, because the place is reeking with magic both from God's Eye and sacrificial blood magic + cut weirwood trunks king Harren incorporated into the building. (However, if, The Others were The "Old" Night's Watch, the wall, was theirs. Before being taken, this line would've been "the wall is where i stand my guard," sort of thing. Once taken, this point is moot, until they retake the wall. *Crackpot*: I'd also like to reiterate, its rumored there are beings IN the wall, not just in ice-cells, but the wall itself, which makes me think the actual creation of the wall, was sudden, like a sudden cast of Ice magic that trapped whomever was crossing that line into their land. One just doesnt appear IN a wall of water, unless it was CAST, like magic, to prevent people from stepping over their boundary [crackpot, ignore for now])

I am the fire that burns against the cold

That is awfully tricky, but one can argue that only cold can successfully fight the ultimate cold. However, I am not sure about this one. Needs brainstorming. (Agreed, the only speculation ican offer at this point, is that in the AGoT prologue, it's stated that when theyre talking about frostbite, and losing their limbs to the cold, that being cold burns. and that, nothing burns quite like a deep, penetrating cold (paraphrase).

the light that brings the dawn

another reference to Lightbringer. Is the true NW the only effective weapon against darkness. I'd say it is and I'd say Mance knows it and that is why he attacked the Wall and forced the NW to live up to its task and become true for once. He could have sent a 1000 men to climb the Wall and kill every brother of the NW, but he opted for an unnecessary frontal attack, which is highly ritualistic. Also, keep in mind that as the sworn brother of the NW, Mance could have opened the Night Fort door if he wanted. Since he knows so much about the Wall, he certainly knows about the door and he had probably used it when he went to Winterfell to see Robert (!?) and managed to remember where Ned Stark's bastard sat in that huge crowd (but that is also an issue for a different thread). (Or, only those true to their oath, can open the door. Sam, still was true to his oath at that point, before sleeping with what's her name. These Night's Watch Others, if our theory is correct, havent broken their vows, and would be able to get through the door [in my eyes, anyway]. Mance, perhaps COULDNT get through that door because of it's magical properties, perhaps because he broke when he deserted, fathered a kid, took a wife, etc)

the horn that wakes the sleepers

This is very interesting. Who are the sleepers? Greenseers? See, there is a link with CotF. (Those buried within the wall? Hmm.. questions) (When The Others come, and arrive, it's at night, to reiterate a point i made before. When they arrive, one would blow a horn, at night time. People sleep at night. Their arrival, would signal a horn blow, which would wake all who were sleeping, at night)

the shield that guards the realms of men

Yes, that fits well into what we see as the purpose of the Others. (If they are indeed the original Night's Watch. One would speculate what they, would defend their realm, from. also, this could easily be altered, into "the shield that guards the realms of the [FIRST] men," if that dreaded 14th lord commander had anything to do with it)

I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come

This fits much better with the Others than the NW. Others do operate in darkness and they are ice made flesh. So, if anyone is designed to fight whatever is lurking far beyond the veil of light, they are the ones to fight it, not men who cannot physically survive such conditions, let alone fight. Also, keep in mind that someone had to physically build that Wall even with the help of magic. Humans cannot endure to handle that much ice for a long time as builders. It's just too bloody cold. Were the first Others turned (by CotF) in order to successfully build the Wall and then stayed on to men and guard it? I do believe the Others were the original NW. The 13 we saw strongly hint in that direction, because they can be easily identified as the first 13 LC of the NW. (Love it, wouldn't change a thing. Think of it, the "Night's Watch," the sheer element of it. Watching at Night. The Others, are the night. It's their element, it fits that they would be)

Winter is Coming in my book sounds oddly similar to Night gathers and now my watch begins. This reinforces my belief that the Others and Starks have the same purpose on both sides of the Wall. And Winterfell is a place where winter fell, the place that cannot be touched by cold, an oasis, a shelter. (Now let me blow your mind a little: Winter is coming, not as a warning as everyone thought, everyone else's house words, are not warnings. Catelyn states this in AGOT Catelyn I, all house words are ferocity, battle words, but not the starks. Perhaps, they actually WERE battle words, a threat. Think of it not as a beware of what is coming, but rather, "we are winter, and we will hunt you down." Winter, is coming)

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Really nice opening post, Lord Blazfemur! I'm definitely down with a lot of the elements of your theory, and especially appreciate your interpretation of the WWs' behavior as enactments of the NW vows, which is really well presented and supported.

What I can't get behind, however, is the dismissal of the Night's Queen/White Lady figure as something made up later to discredit the NK. My reason for this is because her archetype, that of the Female Other (and here I use the term in the sense referenced in Modesty Lannister's post about the constitutive Other), is featured in several related myths in the novels: we have the Shrouded Lord kissed to life by a woman from the mists, we have Durran and the divine Elenei, we have the Grey King with his mermaid, Azor Ahai with his Nissa Nissa. There's something foundational going on with these female Others; they could, of course, all be mythic/legendary fabrications of the sort you propose for NK/NQ, but personally, I think the pattern is significant.

For my part, I think that your theory could still work even were it to include the White Lady. After all, you still need to explain how NK stands in relationship to the WWs/Others who came before. I do think the NK was LC of the NW (I also think he was the Last Hero and the number 13 is a transposition of the LH with his 12 companions, but that's tangential to your theory), and that he did get involved with the White Lady, who was associated with the Others or whomever is responsible for them (possibly the Children), in the most traditional form of alliance making/peace brokering: marriage. And through this he basically became the NW for the Others (and/or, by extension, their makers/controllers), as per the rest of your theory.

But, and here's where Modesty Lannister's "Othering" business comes back in, perhaps the Stark in Winterfell and other humans south of the Wall were invested in Othering: in not wishing to recognize that one could actually come to terms with, relate to the Other. Hence the damnatio memoria performed with respect to the Night's King. Erase that possibility from the record, paint it in the worst possible terms (which a bit of sexual Othering thrown in for good measure, the scary femme fatale who drains men of their seed).

In any case, great work with your opening post! As you say, it's all mostly conjecture at this point, but some conjectures are better than others, and you've done a nice job tying together the available data into a plausible scenario.

seriously, way too kind, i thank you for remaining open. :)

The Night's Queen may, or may not exist. I think she doesn't reason being, this is the ONLY instance, of The Others apparently breaking oath, and JUST that one time, and JUST that one guy. This would give them REASON to dismiss him, exile him, and blame it all on that instance if she wer ein fact an Other. There isn't ANY evidence other than this, that there even is a FEMALE Other, in books and on the show. It's the word, of the 14th lord commander, who just overthrew TNK and then erased his records. of course anyone would believe anything. when the night's watch TODAY is done with Jon, you really think Jon would be known for being noble and open to helping a disputed race of wildlings? hell no. Jon will be the scorned bastard son of a traitor who deserted, joined the wildlings and attempted to overthrow the watch, and that this was the watch's last defense. (by the way, when i use caps, it's not yelling or condescending or anything, i just want to stress that particular word and im in no way attempting to put anything down)

[crackpot]

If there is a Night's Queen. And there might be. Then The Others are evil. He broke oath. There are still 2 watches, an old, and a new, however the old is not all as good as id uphold them. if there is a queen, I'd crackpot theorize she's in Winterfell's crypts. Winter, fell, into those crypts. I'd crackpot all day on how the reason why the godswood rotting and decaying (Catelyn I, AGOT) is because she's absorbing the life to keep herself alive, and the reasons why winterfell is naturally warmer, despite the frigid temperature, is that she's also absorbing the cold, to keep her alive. They make a big deal, in the opening chapters, that the iron supposedly keeps the dead contained, and tha no one's been to the crypt's depths. To further along this crackpot theorum, THe Night's King's purpose would be to break THROUGH the wall, get to winterfell, and finally be put to rest with his queen in winterfell's crypts (TNK is a Stark, and Starks SHOULD be buried in winterfell, and there must always be a stark, in winterfell).

TO further expand, There Must Always Be A Stark In WInterfell, if The Night's Queen is there, she's also a Stark by marriage apparently. Maybe "there must always be a stark in winterfell," is more of a warning. what if she's released? what if the night's king finds her, releases her? and she in turn buries him there because he's a stark, then goes on and wreaks havoc.

again, discount it, it officially means nothing right now

[/crackpot]

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Since we pretty much agree on main points, I'll just deal with this one



(Now let me blow your mind a little: Winter is coming, not as a warning as everyone thought, everyone else's house words, are not warnings. Catelyn states this in AGOT Catelyn I, all house words are ferocity, battle words, but not the starks. Perhaps, they actually WERE battle words, a threat. Think of it not as a beware of what is coming, but rather, "we are winter, and we will hunt you down." Winter, is coming)

I do not see these words as a threat, but as a statement of the inevitable and the statement of being utterly prepared to deal with winter that takes others (no pun intended) by surprise. I see it as a statement of people who conquered winter, who live in a shelter that winter cannot touch, with its warm streams and winter gardens - Winterfell.



Also, talking about the female Other or a lack of her, I'd point out to the symbolism of a blue rose, a winter rose grown in the gardens of WInterfell only to be plucked by Beal the Bard and left instead of a Stark daughter. Beal the Bard was King beyond the Wall, not just a bard. And blue is important in this story, the story of crowning of Lyanna, which is inspired by Beal the Bard, Dany's vision in HotU (again the Targs) and the story of the Others and their blue eyes. I believe there must be a connection there, but I'm not sure how to make it yet. Also, Mance likes to pose as a bard and uses an anagram of Beal - Abel. I'm probably crackpoting there, but can it be said that a blue rose in the Wall actually does not mean Jon Snow, but the Others while the blue rose that ended up hidden in the crypts of Winterfell with her child can also mean that dead Starks in the crypts are also the Others. Stop me now.


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Since we pretty much agree on main points, I'll just deal with this one

I do not see these words as a threat, but as a statement of the inevitable and the statement of being utterly prepared to deal with winter that takes others (no pun intended) by surprise. I see it as a statement of people who conquered winter, who live in a shelter that winter cannot touch, with its warm streams and winter gardens - Winterfell.

Also, talking about the female Other or a lack of her, I'd point out to the symbolism of a blue rose, a winter rose grown in the gardens of WInterfell only to be plucked by Beal the Bard and left instead of a Stark daughter. Beal the Bard was King beyond the Wall, not just a bard. And blue is important in this story, the story of crowning of Lyanna, which is inspired by Beal the Bard, Dany's vision in HotU (again the Targs) and the story of the Others and their blue eyes. I believe there must be a connection there, but I'm not sure how to make it yet. Also, Mance likes to pose as a bard and uses an anagram of Beal - Abel. I'm probably crackpoting there, but can it be said that a blue rose in the Wall actually does not mean Jon Snow, but the Others while the blue rose that ended up hidden in the crypts of Winterfell with her child can also mean that dead Starks in the crypts are also the Others. Stop me now.

Hmm, the blue rose having to do with Others. A blue rose grew out of a chink of a wall.

Do you believe, that theory where anything blue, is a lie? any time there is blue mentioned, blue worn, and even sapphires too, it's something bad, or deception, or however the theory goes?

now again i have to look into the logistics of the theory, but what if we applied it to the blue rose. and more importantly, the blue rose growing out of the wall? maybe it doesnt symbolize jon, at all. or it could be a connection to lyanna. but what if it werent. what if the blue rose, growing out of the wall, in accordance to that theory, symbolizes the growing night's watch (now), is a lie. the blatant calling out that THIS night's watch, is a false night's watch.

just brainstorming possibilities, that mean nothing right now

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Hmm, the blue rose having to do with Others. A blue rose grew out of a chink of a wall.

Do you believe, that theory where anything blue, is a lie? any time there is blue mentioned, blue worn, and even sapphires too, it's something bad, or deception, or however the theory goes?

now again i have to look into the logistics of the theory, but what if we applied it to the blue rose. and more importantly, the blue rose growing out of the wall? maybe it doesnt symbolize jon, at all. or it could be a connection to lyanna. but what if it werent. what if the blue rose, growing out of the wall, in accordance to that theory, symbolizes the growing night's watch (now), is a lie. the blatant calling out that THIS night's watch, is a false night's watch.

just brainstorming possibilities, that mean nothing right now

I wouldn't say that. I would say that it symbolises the Others who grew out of the Wall, which would be consistent with the idea that they built it.

It is interesting that you mention blue as a lie.

But, the most truthful person in the whole ASOIAF - Brienne - is coming from the sapphire isle of Tarth.

As for Jon reference, it is obvious why people make that link - I made it myself at first. Lyanna was crowned by RT with blue roses, hence the product of their love must be seen as a blue rose and he is at the Wall, so ... After all this time, I'd say it is a cliche. So, in order to deconstruct the HotU scene, one must deconstruct the mythology.

So, going backwards:

Harrenhal tourney: Crowning of Lyanna with blue roses. RT sings on the first night, so he is a bard. He knows his lore and he is heavily hinting on the story of Beal the Bard with his gesture. I'm not going to say what that gesture meant, because it is not relevant for this thread.

Beal the Bard: He was a king beyond the wall who liked to sing (like Mance?). He shows up in Winterfell, stuns everyone with his singing and is told that he can take anything he likes and he allegedly takes the daughter and leaves the blue rose instead. In reality, he didn't take the Stark girl anywhere, but into the crypts where she stayed with their child until they were found. And the blue rose lies on the bed. I will now crackpot thoroughly and say that this is actually a story how Starks became related or linked to the Others - the story of turning of Starks. The blue rose was on the bed, which symbolizes sex and birth. The only Stark who survived to continue the line in the end was the bastard of the Stark girl and Beal the Bard. So, modern Starks are descendents of Beal the Bard and that Stark girl. And the result of their love was a blue rose - the Other, the true guardian of the realms of men.

So, going back to the HotU vision, when RT introduces Aegon and says his is the song of ice and fire while we see that blue rose on the Wall, it can be read that TPTWP destiny is linked to the true NW, the Others, which, after the stabbing, Jon Snow will, I suspect, become. As a Stark and a LC of the NW, he fulfills all the requirements. As a Targ he has that je ne sais quoi that will make him unique and pivotal. And let me remind you that JS was speeded to the position of the LC of the NW in a record time with some help from Benjen Stark, Joer Mormont, Aemon Targaryen, Qhorin Halfhand and Mance Rayder. Serendipity? Hardly. These people are too experienced to let this just happen.

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I have some questions on timeline to better understand/add to this discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong but is this the order of things?



-Long night


-Others are defeated


-Long night ends


-Bran the Builder builds the Wall and establishes the NW


-Bran builds Winterfell


-12 Lords Commander of the NW


-13th LC of the NW becomes the Night's King


-The Night's King is defeated by the Stark in Winterfell and the King Beyond the Wall, Joramun


-Night's watch is reestablished with the oath



Based upon a bunch of different theories and posts I've read recently I have a bunch of thoughts that I'm trying to combine into a coherent theory about:


-Winterfell being where Winter Fell or the others were defeated (by pact not by force of arms)


-Why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell


-Bran's last vision of the man's throat being cut in front of the Weirwood


-The LC of the Night's Watch originally being a heriditary Stark title combined with the titles King of Winter and it's last use before the Night's King was defeated


-Why Starks were once Kings of Winter then Kings in the North


-The Night's King being a Stark specifically a Brandon Stark


-Why the oath says wear no crowns, lands, wives, children etc.


-Cold Hands also being a Brandon Stark.


-How this all relates to the others and Night's King Coming back



It's mostly all jumbled in my head but I wanted to get confirmation of the agreed upon timeline before I try to fully cracked my pot.


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on phone I can't answer to every part I would want, but I'll start with this.

-Also: It's rumored, yes, RUMORED, that Bran The Builder ALLEGEDLY built The Wall. I have no problems believing he built the castles, and forts. In fact, in Catelyn I in AGOT, she says "allegedly." She also recollects, in the godswood with Ned that those eyes on the heart tree may have seen him lay the first BRICK (not ICE).

-The Wall, is made of Ice, along with castles/forts of brick

-Ice, is an element The Others seem to manipulate, it's their element, and where ever they go, the cold follows

Conclusion: The Others originally built the wall, the reasoning is debatable (perhaps, to keep everyone else OUT of their realm)

You were so good to distinguish facts from assumptions and what is debatable from what isn't. But here your argument poses the first fallacy: the premises you are listing here do not entail the conclusion, they are totally insufficient. The so-called conclusion is no more of speculation or hypothesis. If you use this proposition later in your reasonment, your entire argument falls apart as ungrounded speculation.

The motivation (what you called reasoning, ndr) is absolutely arbitrary, and a strawman fallacy. To debate this point, you've first to provide proof for your previous proposition. Otherwise, you can speculate arbitrarily here as well. But I thought you were aiming to a strong rational reasonment based exclusively on evidence.

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I have some questions on timeline to better understand/add to this discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong but is this the order of things?

-Long night

-Others are defeated

-Long night ends

-Bran the Builder builds the Wall and establishes the NW

-Bran builds Winterfell

-12 Lords Commander of the NW

-13th LC of the NW becomes the Night's King

-The Night's King is defeated by the Stark in Winterfell and the King Beyond the Wall, Joramun

-Night's watch is reestablished with the oath

Based upon a bunch of different theories and posts I've read recently I have a bunch of thoughts that I'm trying to combine into a coherent theory about:

-Winterfell being where Winter Fell or the others were defeated (by pact not by force of arms)

-Why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell

-Bran's last vision of the man's throat being cut in front of the Weirwood

-The LC of the Night's Watch originally being a heriditary Stark title combined with the titles King of Winter and it's last use before the Night's King was defeated

-Why Starks were once Kings of Winter then Kings in the North

-The Night's King being a Stark specifically a Brandon Stark

-Why the oath says wear no crowns, lands, wives, children etc.

-Cold Hands also being a Brandon Stark.

-How this all relates to the others and Night's King Coming back

It's mostly all jumbled in my head but I wanted to get confirmation of the agreed upon timeline before I try to fully cracked my pot.

Coldhands being Brandon Stark was debated for awhile, people have emphasized "im your monster, Brandon Stark" to be more of an introduction than it is an emphasis to bran. to make him the one, that conquered the night's king? hoo boy. now we're getting deep. thats gonna take some time to brainstorm, if we're making coldhands THE one that conquered the night's king. I dont think, that TNK is also a brandon stark. in fact they go out of their way to make sure he's nameless.

id also like to expand, if we're talking about kings of winter/kings in the north, as titles, that there are a lot of those said individuals beneath in winterfell's crypts. If the Night's King gets there, could he raise them as wights? the old kings of winter/north. theyd even be family.

on phone I can't answer to every part I would want, but I'll start with this.

You were so good to distinguish facts from assumptions and what is debatable from what isn't. But here your argument poses the first fallacy: the premises you are listing here do not entail the conclusion, they are totally insufficient. The so-called conclusion is no more of speculation or hypothesis. If you use this proposition later in your reasonment, your entire argument falls apart as ungrounded speculation.

The motivation (what you called reasoning, ndr) is absolutely arbitrary, and a strawman fallacy. To debate this point, you've first to provide proof for your previous proposition. Otherwise, you can speculate arbitrarily here as well. But I thought you were aiming to a strong rational reasonment based exclusively on evidence.

to reiterate, Bran the bulder took credit for building a wall made of ice (supposedly). while i dont discredit the castles/forts on the wall, the wall itself is a blatant wall of what Others can openly manipulate. if any of the corruption of The Night's King and the New Night's Watch can be assumed and believed, why is it so out of the box to believe that someone took credit for the entirety of the wall?

the point of the wall, isn't eventhe basis of what i was trying to achieve here. the speculation, and especially using the language of "allegedly," as characters used to describe bran building the wall, hints that that may not be accurate as it is obviously quite the feat with something so large. again, it's allegedly. he may have done it, he may not have. my idea is, he created the castles and forts, but not the wall of ice itself. The Others, to me, did that.

Again, and i do appreciate the input, especially with the difficulty of a phone haha, discredit with evidence against my theory, without just putting it down. i want to build on this theory, or eliminate it just as easily, with given fact. my facts, were that a lot of people used "allegedly," and that the final construction, is something that the others can manipulate, with manmade castles built on top of it. The wall itself, ties in with the oath itself, and thus The Others building it or having had controlled it at one point, is essential.

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the again, if the oath was altered or changed with the beginning of the 2nd night's watch (14th Lord Commander and on), then that would change some things, obviously.


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lol, i cant wait for how Jon, Melisandre, and that whole scenario plays out. If she sacrifices Craster's last baby boy (that has first men blood most likely). What kind of results would THAT yield?



edit: sidebar: resurrected by fire (rh'llor), turned by an Other (ice), jon's new purpose as the song of ice and fire?


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lol, i cant wait for how Jon, Melisandre, and that whole scenario plays out. If she sacrifices Craster's last baby boy (that has first men blood most likely). What kind of results would THAT yield?

edit: sidebar: resurrected by fire (rh'llor), turned by an Other (ice), jon's new purpose as the song of ice and fire?

That is not his new purpose. That has always been his only purpose.

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this may be well thought out, but if these others are upholding the nights watch vows, then who is the night's watch supposed to fight? also, what happenned during the long night? this was when there was no night's watch and no wall. how did westeros repel the others before, and why did the others attack? is it like old nan said, that they hate living things, or were they dying out, so they needed to invade to make sure it was cold enough. a lot doesnt make sense. i cant imagine what the first men could do to fight the others with no Wall to protect them. maybe the others just hanged out up north, where no one went, and were first spotted then. we'll only know when the series is finished (if it ever is)


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this may be well thought out, but if these others are upholding the nights watch vows, then who is the night's watch supposed to fight? also, what happenned during the long night? this was when there was no night's watch and no wall. how did westeros repel the others before, and why did the others attack? is it like old nan said, that they hate living things, or were they dying out, so they needed to invade to make sure it was cold enough. a lot doesnt make sense. i cant imagine what the first men could do to fight the others with no Wall to protect them. maybe the others just hanged out up north, where no one went, and were first spotted then. we'll only know when the series is finished (if it ever is)

We addressed some of these issues in our posts. As for Old Nan, she also said that wildlings drink blood. Just look what she says about the wildling and you'll get a picture how reliable she is. But, each story has some nugget of truth. The key is to find the right nugget.

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We addressed some of these issues in our posts. As for Old Nan, she also said that wildlings drink blood. Just look what she says about the wildling and you'll get a picture how reliable she is. But, each story has some nugget of truth. The key is to find the right nugget.

well, hmm. could we speculate that perhaps, TNK did with The Others, what Jon attempted to do with the wildlings?

TNK meets with this "supposed" female Other. and they inevitably unite. the factions are at tension, but not at war. Then, like the night's watch now backstabbed jon, the night's watch THEN, exiles TNK for treating with Others, like Jon treated wildlings.

Theoretically, TNK continues his watch, and the 14th lc continues his. the 14th lc alters a few things, erases a few records, and all lore is descended from what HE said, as we know it today.

The existence of that female Other, would define how the past played out. Though still, i havent seen or read about ANY female including craster's babies.

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Coldhands being Brandon Stark was debated for awhile, people have emphasized "im your monster, Brandon Stark" to be more of an introduction than it is an emphasis to bran. to make him the one, that conquered the night's king? hoo boy. now we're getting deep. thats gonna take some time to brainstorm, if we're making coldhands THE one that conquered the night's king. I dont think, that TNK is also a brandon stark. in fact they go out of their way to make sure he's nameless.

id also like to expand, if we're talking about kings of winter/kings in the north, as titles, that there are a lot of those said individuals beneath in winterfell's crypts. If the Night's King gets there, could he raise them as wights? the old kings of winter/north. theyd even be family.

I wasn't saying Cold hands was the Night's King or that he defeated the Night's King just that they are both named Brandon Stark.

As to the Kings of Winter vs Kings in the North I agree that they're in the crypts. That's why I wanted to make sure I had the timeline right. I think at some point the Start Kings stopped being Kings of Winter and became Kings in the North, much like at some point they became Wardens of the North after the conquest.

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I wasn't saying Cold hands was the Night's King or that he defeated the Night's King just that they are both named Brandon Stark.

As to the Kings of Winter vs Kings in the North I agree that they're in the crypts. That's why I wanted to make sure I had the timeline right. I think at some point the Start Kings stopped being Kings of Winter and became Kings in the North, much like at some point they became Wardens of the North after the conquest.

ah, slight confusion then my apologies.

Do you think TNK's quest ends when he reaches winterfell? or does he continue to kings landing.

and if so, hes a stark, his final resting place WOULD be winterfell, or, does he raise the old kings, and proceed to kings landing (whoa, wait a sec.... king's landing, the landing, of the kings....) with his army of kings in the north/kings of winter starks?

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But there is a sign of female Others. THe Queen of the Night. And where does the Great Other figure into this?

thats the point my friend. Where is The Queen? does she exist? where? exactly. it's the word of mouth of the very individual that ERASED all documentation of TNK and claimed to exile him because, of the female other.

you also used plural (femaleS). excluding wights, can you direct me to a section that identifies any of the Others as female? either episodic, or in text.

The Great Other is something we havent scratched on yet. Melisandre thinks he's real. Perhaps he still exists. Perhaps TNK serves him, or, the powers of Great Other can be passed down (like the rh'llor gift passed to The Lady) to him. Maybe as TNK, he's the only one that can turn those babies with first men blood to Other, and that gives him status as "The Great Other." Or, you know that ritual they had, when they turned craster's baby? It was, as seen, in a circle of ice pillars, an ice henge. It looked like they took great care in it, and while the Night's King turned the baby, it was done in ritualistic format. Perhaps like Melisandre to Rh'llor, The Night's King, offered this baby to "The Great Other."

again, pure speculation, no text yet, and little show evidence. Im open to ideas

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ah, slight confusion then my apologies.

Do you think TNK's quest ends when he reaches winterfell? or does he continue to kings landing.

and if so, hes a stark, his final resting place WOULD be winterfell, or, does he raise the old kings, and proceed to kings landing (whoa, wait a sec.... king's landing, the landing, of the kings....) with his army of kings in the north/kings of winter starks?

No worries.

I can't tell where the Night's King or Great Other's quest ends. I definately think there is something in Winterfell, and why there always needs to be a Stark in Winterfell. Without delving too much into my crackpot head on this as I really don't have the timeline of events sorted out or at least a forum consensus yet. Bran the Builder and/or the last hero sign a pact with the others, much like the one with the Children. A you stay on your side I stay on my side kind of deal, signed in blood in front of the Winterfell Heart Tree (Bran's vision) because the trees remember. With Bran the builder declared King of Winter since he brought the Others to the table. Then as some one said earlier the others with Ice Magic help Bran the Builder build the wall (kind of a DMZ). Bran founds the NW to keep a look out if the others return (the watchers on the walls), and makes it a herditary seat of the Kings of Winter (Starks). Bran then founds Winterfell around the Weirwood and builds the crypts underneath for the Kings of Winter so their memories become part of the trees and the Starks won't forget.

Years pass, Winterfell grows, the 13th Lord Commander falls in love with Queen Other (who in my opinion is like a queen bee, the only female) and decides he's greater than just being king of winter and south of the Wall but both the others and the first men. His brother, the Stark in Winterfell, and Jorumon the King beyond the Wall (who may or may not have been an other) Join up to defeat him and wipe his name from history. Thus the Starks are no longer Kings of Winter just Kings in the North. And even though they have the Horn of Jorumon since the wiped his name from history the Starks (and everyone else to include the Free Folk) begin to forget.

I like to think Jorumon was an other. He has the horn and doesn't blow it, he wants the wall there, and he teams up with the Stark in Winterfell, just like the pact at the end of the long night. And the Free Folk north of the wall pick up the title King beyond the Wall, but only when one of them is strong enough to claim it as his own. There isn't a perpetual King Beyond the Wall. The title King Beyong the Wall is even counter point the the King in the North, both share a boarder divided by the wall.

So this is all conjecture right now, or crackpot if you will. It's a jumble in my head that this is all connected somehow. I think this is why although there are many great families and stories throughout Westerosi history, like Robert's Rebellion, ASOIAF is about the Starks and others. It's why almost all of our POVs in Game of Thrones are Starks when the Lannisters are crazier. The story starts in Winterfell for a reason. Southron Ambitions and Robert's Rebellion are how the Starks are pulled away. Catelyn bringing the faith of the 7 is furthering the Starks forgetting. Ned becoming hand then Robb losing Winterfell while ruling in Riverrun are the last straws of the Starks forgetting.

Sorry, it's late and my mind is just pushing this out. I hope to put it in a coherent form, with some evidence at some point. It's just where my mind went after reading a bunch about all these different threads. It was a Coldhands thread that gave me the idea along with something I saw on youtube about the last hero having a pact with the others. I wish I could cite it. Ok enough for tonight.

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