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Blazfemur

[Spoilers All] Two Night's Watch/Their 'True' History; The Others' Purpose; TNK; Etc

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P.S. Lord Blazfemur's theory on NK trying to uphold NW vows is basically unrealistic since the WW attacked the men of the NW during the range and also during the battle of dawn it is said that the NW were the ones that pushed the WW back to the Lands of Always winter hence they are probably ranked #1 on WW hitlist.

Besides the Battle for Dawn was started when WW started moving south killing the FM and tCotF since we are told that there advancement was stopped when it was discovered that dragonglass could kill them hence it is clear that the WW are the ones that started the war since no one knew how to kill them hence why would the FM or tCotF pick a fight with them in the first place?

unless they were trying to defend themselves which goes to prove that the WW truly hate men and all living things.

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P.S. Lord Blazfemur's theory on NK trying to uphold NW vows is basically unrealistic since the WW attacked the men of the NW during the range and also during the battle of dawn it is said that the NW were the ones that pushed the WW back to the Lands of Always winter hence they are probably ranked #1 on WW hitlist.

If something as recent to the ASoIaF timeline as Rhaegar and Lyanna is shrouded in the mystery of interpretation, how can something that happened at least 8000 years before be clear?

Pushing the Others back, what does that even mean?

According to legend, there was no Night's Watch before the Others invaded and there was no Wall until after the Others went away. Some accounts list Azor Ahai (The Prince that was Promised) as defeating the Others, whilst the Night's Watch is also credited. 13 Lord Commanders later, the Nights Watch is somehow in league with the Others and the Night's King comes about.

In the book Sam is warned that one of Craster's sons will come for Gilly's baby. The Others have still not been properly described in the books. Sam 'Slayer' killed one - but off page and no one mentions what it looked like, only that it turned into a puddle after.

In the show Sam stabbed a WW that looked the same as the one that killed the patrol at the start, Jon saw and took the baby. This looks different to the Night's King that made the babies eyes blue.

This seems like an absolute muddle but it's not really, if you link the 2 sources together. The WWs in the show must be Craster's babies, because they are the things that come for Craster's babies and, cross referencing the books Craster's sons come for Craster's babies. This same WW is also what kills the patrol and Sam slays. In the books these are called Others. Therefore, Craster's babies must be Others if the show and books are consistently portraying the same universe.

The Night's King is a little different, portrayed in the show as that something that can make Others from Craster's babies. See above, in the books, the Night's King is a very early Lord Commander who (supposedly) went bad. For the return of the Other's, if we combine the show and books, this dude is making them.

In the books, the Knights King is only a legend. But there is a strange dead guy riding around on an Elk called Coldhands - like a freaky, frozen father Xmas with black hands (cause his flesh is dead). This guy was nice to Sam and helped him get away from some wrights, but not some Other's. If this Coldhands guy is also the Knights King, then the WWs/Others aren't necessarily bad - because their maker helped Sam get to Bran.

At the very least, after the Night's Watch initially took up it's watch on the wall, their relationship with the Others was not a good guys watching the bad guys one. They interacted, to some degree.

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well i beg to differ the Nights watch fought during the Long Night and are the ones responsible to fighting the WW upnorth till they reached theLands of Always Winter.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Night's_Watch

the show doesnt strictly follow the books though both are supervised by GRRM so whatever we see in the show is or was supposed to be on the book so Coldhands is a good guy and is not the NK.Also Crasters kids cant be the same ones yakinh his kids since being turned into wrights doesnt speed their growth

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A few facts that we know:

-HBO slipped up on the reveal on the 'leader' of the Others, confirming him as the Night's King. Don't think they'd deviate something this large, from the books.

-In THAT scene, there were The Night's King, and 12 Others around him.

-The Night's King, was the 13th Lord Commander, of the Night's Watch.

-It can be debated, that the previous 12 MAY, or MAY NOT, be the 12 Lord Commanders before him

The 12 Lord commanders before him were already dead and gone. I believe dead people can be turned into wights...But how can they become Others..???

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Only got through a few pages of this (will go back and read it later when I am home from work) so sorry if this is answered somewhere. What is it about that scene in the show that makes us think that was the Night's King? Why couldn't it be the Great Other? A "Great Other" implies a god, which would then have the ability to turn babies into Others. Sorry if I missed something I just had to ask this before I go back and continue the thread.


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Only got through a few pages of this (will go back and read it later when I am home from work) so sorry if this is answered somewhere. What is it about that scene in the show that makes us think that was the Night's King? Why couldn't it be the Great Other? A "Great Other" implies a god, which would then have the ability to turn babies into Others. Sorry if I missed something I just had to ask this before I go back and continue the thread.

if that was the Great Other then it impies Rlhor is a physical being.The 12 companions in black also made him be more of a king rather than a deity.

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if that was the Great Other then it impies Rlhor is a physical being.The 12 companions in black also made him be more of a king rather than a deity.

I can see that line of thinking. So is it safe to say that the being shown in the show is ASSUMED to be the NK? The way most people on the board talk about it (from what I have seen) it almost seemed like FACT that it was the NK.

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P.S. Lord Blazfemur's theory on NK trying to uphold NW vows is basically unrealistic since the WW attacked the men of the NW during the range and also during the battle of dawn it is said that the NW were the ones that pushed the WW back to the Lands of Always winter hence they are probably ranked #1 on WW hitlist.

Besides the Battle for Dawn was started when WW started moving south killing the FM and tCotF since we are told that there advancement was stopped when it was discovered that dragonglass could kill them hence it is clear that the WW are the ones that started the war since no one knew how to kill them hence why would the FM or tCotF pick a fight with them in the first place?

unless they were trying to defend themselves which goes to prove that the WW truly hate men and all living things.

i would genuinely ask, how is it unrealistic? if they TAKE children, theyre not fathering anyone, are they? if all they take are BOYS, then it's pretty impossible to hold a wife, isnt it? and undert he assumptiont heyre nomadic (it says nowhere else in the text that they have a 'home,) they not confirmed to hold any lands. are those not the basic tennents?

i would also reiterate, that the Others now would have a vendetta against today's Night's Watch, if their Night's King was overthrown by them way back when. I would never suggest that the Others were Always the Night's Watch either, im saying something happened between the 13th, and 14th lord commander, that broke off the 13th Lord Commander to side with the Others.

As far as we know, today's Night's Watch hold a huge block of an element Others manipulate and somewhat control. It's said giants helped build it -- well then why are they fighting to regain control/break free of it? Also, Wildlings as well. NO ONE wants to be held back by the wall. The wall must be destroyed, or THIS Night's Watch must be destroyed to maintain balance, or some sort of passage through it.

If history repeated itself, we know Jon made a treaty with Wildlings, a fair treaty, and then he was backstabbed (quite literally). If there were something similar between Lord Commander Stark (13th, Night's King), and The Others to maintain peace, and the watch then backstabbed him, it would definitely make sense.

The 12 Lord commanders before him were already dead and gone. I believe dead people can be turned into wights...But how can they become Others..???

The ingredient of First Men blood that is maintained in majority of the northern houses/wildlings. We were exploring the possibility, that all non-first blood individuals turn wight (not only dead), and all first blood-individuals turn wight (the basis for Craster's incestual blood-preservation)

Only got through a few pages of this (will go back and read it later when I am home from work) so sorry if this is answered somewhere. What is it about that scene in the show that makes us think that was the Night's King? Why couldn't it be the Great Other? A "Great Other" implies a god, which would then have the ability to turn babies into Others. Sorry if I missed something I just had to ask this before I go back and continue the thread.

HBO slipped up in an episode synopsis by calling that particular individual The Night's King. applying all rules and stipulations to their slip-up.

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I can see that line of thinking. So is it safe to say that the being shown in the show is ASSUMED to be the NK? The way most people on the board talk about it (from what I have seen) it almost seemed like FACT that it was the NK.

Not assumed, ythey blatantly called that individual The Night's King. their slipup fits like a puzzle peice to all his records being destroyed, his name not being confirmed, old nan's prophecies, and the basis for first men blood.

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HBO slipped up in an episode synopsis by calling that particular individual The Night's King. applying all rules and stipulations to their slip-up.

Got it. Thanks!

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Not assumed, ythey blatantly called that individual The Night's King. their slipup fits like a puzzle peice to all his records being destroyed, his name not being confirmed, old nan's prophecies, and the basis for first men blood.

Makes sense. Now back to page 3. Absolutely loving this thread. Being relatively new to the board, I absolutely love these theories.....especially when they make sense.

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i just hope you have watched the t.v show,do the WW even remotely look good to you,just me an example in any story,movie,book or even legend where the good guys raise the dead to fight the other good guys and have giant ice spiders.

So fire destroys and ice preserves are you saying their goal is to preserve the living in ice till the winter is over cause that can be a good cause.

If we have read the same story about the NK then we know what the guy did was so evil that the nothernmen and wildlings teamed up to completely destroy him and erase him from history.....tell me again why the NK is a good guy

Also if jon gets a dragon and becomes the NK will he take his dragon to live with him in the Lands of Always Winter.

Im sure killing a king makes you a kingslayer and doesent make you eligeble to becoming king otherwise Jaimie would be on the IT right now.To the WW their king is like a dad,hero,high priest e.t.c killing him makes you public enemy no.1 and not a contender for his seat,besides for Jon to be NK he must be turned into a WW by the NK unless he has been groming jon for leadership i just dont see it happening.

Also jon being LC of NW had an oath to protect the realm of men from WW who hate anything with warm blood in their veins.

About the goals of the WW,GRRM might have said that they are misunderstood but he also said that they dont like us much and the reason they are moving south is the very same countries are invaded and inhabitants killed.So if you have discovered a reason for the WW to be good guys that GRRM doesnt know of please share,im all ears.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

I'm sorry but the WW/Others in the books DO NOT look like the ones on the TV show. I've seen the infamous HBO spoiler scene courtesy of YouTube (which helps back up my theory that humans do not get changed into Others and that the Others are not just iced-over humans), but as I don't have any TV reception, let alone cable, I have to wait for DVDs. Finishing Season 3 this week.

The producers of the show know how the main storylines will end, but that doesn't mean they are going to get everything else right. I enjoy different interpretations of subject matter though so it's not a big deal to me.

I'm not saying I remotely know what Aemon meant other than that fire destroys things and ice doesn't. And since we don't know what that means, it's a little soon to go judging everybody.

We know that the story people have been told is that NK was a bad guy who did evil things (and he very like was, and did) but...have you ever seen the movie Wag The Dog? It's ridiculously easy to get people to believe things that aren't true. Heck, American politics (or any politics really) is proof enough of that. Yes, it's very likely that NK was a bad guy. But since we don't know all the facts, we might want to hang back on the damnation and hellfire for him.

Why would NK go to The Lands of Always Winter? NK isn't an Other. I don't expect Jon to become NK, I'm just saying it's possible. If he gets a dragon I expect him to fly that thing into The Heart of Winter to solve the whole problem, sacrificing himself to save the realm.

We have no idea what the White Walkers consider their leader to be. And we don't know that they EVER considered Night's King to be their leader. That's a lot of assumptions in one paragraph. You totally missed that my Star Wars reference was meant as a joke. Actually if you consider the Others to have a barbarian-like culture then whoever kills their leader would then become the new leader. It's a classic example of dominance in primitive cultures (just like in the animal kingdom). Again, where is there anything in the books that says a human can become an Other? And who said Night's King is their leader?

The Night's Watch oath says nothing about the Others.

Kindly provide an SSM for that statement because I don't recall ever seeing it. And also, what the heck does that mean? What exact same countries? If you mean they are following the same pattern they did 8,000 years ago I agree, but that doesn't give a reason for why they are doing it. To us it looks bad, to them it probably seems entirely justifiable. We're only getting one side of the story.

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Makes sense. Now back to page 3. Absolutely loving this thread. Being relatively new to the board, I absolutely love these theories.....especially when they make sense.

much more than Winds Of Winter, right now in accordance to this theory, im wondering if The World Of Ice And Fire, suppsoedly the untold history, may reveal some details of The Night's King's Night's Watch, and the nIght's watch we know now. And how the records were deleted. Or if theyre just going to reiterate the legends we "know" thus far.

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much more than Winds Of Winter, right now in accordance to this theory, im wondering if The World Of Ice And Fire, suppsoedly the untold history, may reveal some details of The Night's King's Night's Watch, and the nIght's watch we know now. And how the records were deleted. Or if theyre just going to reiterate the legends we "know" thus far.

What I love about what you just said, is that we only have a week until we may find out more.....opposed to YEARS before WoW :bang:

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P.S. Lord Blazfemur's theory on NK trying to uphold NW vows is basically unrealistic since the WW attacked the men of the NW during the range and also during the battle of dawn it is said that the NW were the ones that pushed the WW back to the Lands of Always winter hence they are probably ranked #1 on WW hitlist.

Besides the Battle for Dawn was started when WW started moving south killing the FM and tCotF since we are told that there advancement was stopped when it was discovered that dragonglass could kill them hence it is clear that the WW are the ones that started the war since no one knew how to kill them hence why would the FM or tCotF pick a fight with them in the first place?

unless they were trying to defend themselves which goes to prove that the WW truly hate men and all living things.

I actually agree. I don't think he's remotely right on that part, but I defend his creativity, and until we hear otherwise (no pun intended) we can't really rule anything out, can we?

The Battle was actually at the END of the war. When they started moving south was at the beginning. It took the Last Hero a while to find the CotF and learn how to effectively fight the Others.

well i beg to differ the Nights watch fought during the Long Night and are the ones responsible to fighting the WW upnorth till they reached theLands of Always Winter.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Night's_Watch

the show doesnt strictly follow the books though both are supervised by GRRM so whatever we see in the show is or was supposed to be on the book so Coldhands is a good guy and is not the NK.Also Crasters kids cant be the same ones yakinh his kids since being turned into wrights doesnt speed their growth

Uh, no. He does not get to supervise the show. He's stated that they've cut out and even killed off characters who will be important in TWoW and ADoS. If he were in charge of the show, those things would not happen. He has some input, as he is one of the writers, but the producers call all the shots.

I agree that Coldhands isn't NK. But we don't know that live-wighting wouldn't speed their growth. Plus Craster has been giving his sons to the Others for a long enough time that there will be full-grown CrasterWights running around by now.

The 12 Lord commanders before him were already dead and gone. I believe dead people can be turned into wights...But how can they become Others..???

According to my ideas, they can't. Check out my Wighting Theory. You might enjoy it.

Only got through a few pages of this (will go back and read it later when I am home from work) so sorry if this is answered somewhere. What is it about that scene in the show that makes us think that was the Night's King? Why couldn't it be the Great Other? A "Great Other" implies a god, which would then have the ability to turn babies into Others. Sorry if I missed something I just had to ask this before I go back and continue the thread.

The Great Other is a term Mel uses because she believes there is a rival God to R'hllor. In reality it could easily mean President, Prime Minister, Top General, etc.

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What I love about what you just said, is that we only have a week until we may find out more.....opposed to YEARS before WoW :bang:

exactly, it's even said int he book synopsis, that it WILL tell of the coming of the first men. im ont he edge of my seat waiting for this, as it may confirm some of the propaganda im spreading haha

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I agree that Coldhands isn't NK.

In regards to Coldhands. He's an intelligible undead being that doesn't have glowing eyes. The only other being like him is The Lady. Logically, and only through logic, it would appear what's keeping him alive is rh'llorian based (i know, blasphemous in the north, but consider the 'limitations' we've seen with wights/Others, and then consider everything we've seen with Beric and The Lady), his appearence, manorisms, and intellect are identical to how The Lady still exists. Or it could be another magic altogether. One of my third readthrough speculations im trying to get through, is if there was a member of the brotherhood without banners in arya's chapters that suddenly went missing, or became a member of the watch all of a sudden. I have nothing to base it off of but it's definitely something im looking out for.

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i would genuinely ask, how is it unrealistic? if they TAKE children, theyre not fathering anyone, are they? if all they take are BOYS, then it's pretty impossible to hold a wife, isnt it? and undert he assumptiont heyre nomadic (it says nowhere else in the text that they have a 'home,) they not confirmed to hold any lands. are those not the basic tennents?

i would also reiterate, that the Others now would have a vendetta against today's Night's Watch, if their Night's King was overthrown by them way back when. I would never suggest that the Others were Always the Night's Watch either, im saying something happened between the 13th, and 14th lord commander, that broke off the 13th Lord Commander to side with the Others.

As far as we know, today's Night's Watch hold a huge block of an element Others manipulate and somewhat control. It's said giants helped build it -- well then why are they fighting to regain control/break free of it? Also, Wildlings as well. NO ONE wants to be held back by the wall. The wall must be destroyed, or THIS Night's Watch must be destroyed to maintain balance, or some sort of passage through it.

If history repeated itself, we know Jon made a treaty with Wildlings, a fair treaty, and then he was backstabbed (quite literally). If there were something similar between Lord Commander Stark (13th, Night's King), and The Others to maintain peace, and the watch then backstabbed him, it would definitely make sense.

Why the hell would the NK break his vows,take a wife,declare himself king,take lands then after he is beaten go and make an entire race keep vows of the men responsible for killing them.this is the part i want explained.

Do the WW also have a place for taking vows?besides we dont know how they live up there in the lands of always winter which no living man has gone to by the way yet you claim they are nomadic.

In my history lesson an altar was a sign of people who had settled down and on the t .v show crasters baby was clearly placed on one and from the looks of it it seems like that is the usual drill.

Besides you cant tell me that those are the only WW in the whole area?i didnt see signs of settlement camps nearby nor any of crasters previous offerings who might be boys of different sizes and ages and none of the 13 were carrying any child.

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Why the hell would the NK break his vows,take a wife,declare himself king,take lands then after he is beaten go and make an entire race keep vows of the men responsible for killing them.this is the part i want explained.

Explanation: Think of where you got this information. From the legends of The Night's Watch, correct? Yet, all records before the 14th Lord Commander were confirmed destroyed. SO, the true histories were gone, and you're to believe whatever the 14th lord commander tells you, because there are no other records to deny what he says. The existence of The Night's Queen, is still up in the air. Have you seen a female Other? (not wight, anyone can be a wight, but a female Other?) I've only seen males, and read about male Others. Not one was female. Considering the other side, IF The Night's Queen exists, she's nowhere to be found. The other side, might be she's in winterfell's crypts, buried there or imprisoned there, with the wall, dividing her from The Night's King.

Do the WW also have a place for taking vows?besides we dont know how they live up there in the lands of always winter which no living man has gone to by the way yet you claim they are nomadic.

There is no confirmation ANYwhere whether or not they have a dwelling, or if they're nomadic. For one side, or the other. But the same argument could be made for the Watch, theyre not supposed to hold lands, yet they took the wall, and almost got to own The Gift (lands directly south of the wall where that barrow of first men is). And yes, i would claim they are nomadic, because it's another basic rule of The Night's Oath. Even if they have a dwelling, they can in fact live there without "owning" it. If it's the land of always winter and no man has been up there, then there's no one else to claim ownership, is there?

In my history lesson an altar was a sign of people who had settled down and on the t .v show crasters baby was clearly placed on one and from the looks of it it seems like that is the usual drill.

Somewhat religious, right? An alter, like, a ritual. Based on the ZERO book text, yeah id make a guess: converting them to Other, and under his rule, his army. The point?

Besides you cant tell me that those are the only WW in the whole area?i didnt see signs of settlement camps nearby nor any of crasters previous offerings who might be boys of different sizes and ages and none of the 13 were carrying any child.

Oh, I don't have to tell you anything. My theory would suggest that it's the purity of the first men blood, that would determine how powerful an Other would be/become, based on Craster's incestual brood-making. My theory would place an ingredient in the blood, as to why he did what he did. And as most northern houses had First Men blood, and The Night's King was rumored to be a Stark, this would formulate the backbone on how things may turn out. And you're right, they weren't carrying a child. It's because Sam and Gilly, broke that pact, with Craster's final baby boy. Not gonna end up too well, is it?

Dude, you need to chill. I fully aknowledge nothing is set in stone, and if the next novel comes out and this theory is proved wrong, id gladly bow down and out to text. However, ive seen ZERO other threads that have tried to piece together the little information we have like i have, and have it make sense. The point of this is to define and give limitations, come up with motive, piece the clues of whats wrong with the watch, and that there's no true good, or true evil, in this story.

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