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Blazfemur

[Spoilers All] Two Night's Watch/Their 'True' History; The Others' Purpose; TNK; Etc

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In regards to Coldhands. He's an intelligible undead being that doesn't have glowing eyes. The only other being like him is The Lady. Logically, and only through logic, it would appear what's keeping him alive is rh'llorian based (i know, blasphemous in the north, but consider the 'limitations' we've seen with wights/Others, and then consider everything we've seen with Beric and The Lady), his appearence, manorisms, and intellect are identical to how The Lady still exists. Or it could be another magic altogether. One of my third readthrough speculations im trying to get through, is if there was a member of the brotherhood without banners in arya's chapters that suddenly went missing, or became a member of the watch all of a sudden. I have nothing to base it off of but it's definitely something im looking out for.

Except that R'hllor represents fire and there is nothing remotely fiery about a character known as Coldhands. I would argue that his mannerisms and intellect are his own and that he actually retains much more of himself than The Lady does. Granted he was probably backfire-wighted very close to death, whereas Lady S was dead for days first. I don't think mannerisms and personality depend on what form of wighting one undergoes (though the regular ice wights don't seem to have much of either).

Coldhands died "long ago." Sorry my friend, but there is no way he's a member of the BWB, which was only formed after Ned sent Beric and company after Gregor Clegane. This fella's been dead a loooooong time and the R'hllor-based resurrections have never worked before for Thoros (and more than likely other red priests before him). So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Coldhands was not fire-wighted.

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I wonder why these type of theory's bother you so much Jon Ahai?



The Nights Watch is the shield that guards the realms of men, from an area where a wall was built, after the Nights Watch formed, to separate the realms of men from the Other side. Surely everyone can agree on this?



What isn't clear is what they are guarding against, or even if they are meant to be guarding the other side from the realms of men. It is entirely possible that their original purpose was to guard the realms of men from entering the far north. The Wall could have been like a fence around a wildlife reserve and the Nights Watch the security guards that are meant to keep the reserve safe from the folly of men.



Sam gets to open one of the Wall's magical gates by speaking old words, after he has vowed himself to the old gods, to take Bran through on invitation. Sam is very much acting like a security guard, or warden, taking Bran as an honoured guest, or new addition for the wildlife reserve, at this point.



The legendary past is very fuzzy - deliberately written so, to obscure the truth until the books conclusion, no doubt.



The first man made a pack with the Children of the Forrest, that basically amounted to protecting the natural world. Symbols of this natural world that had to be protected were Godswoods - the trees with faces.



Then there was a time of heroes in which was a long night and everything is a bit obscure. But the history that was passed down is from the human perspective, not the perspective of the Other side of the wall.



There is a reasonable probability that the Long Night had something to do with the pact being broken, or the magical and natural world mistreated by the humans. And that the heroes did not fight to win but rather brokered a new pact, which included making a big ass wall that made it very clear which place humans are supposed to leave the fuck alone.



Tyrion pisses off it, FFS - the little Imp shows deep disrespect for the Other side by seeing as something he can piss on - it is very clear in the books and the show the humans no longer give a toss about the old ways, respecting nature, magic and all of that. It's very clear that the Nights Watch is a shadow of what it once was and that it has forgotten its original purpose. Winter has to come, because the people of Westeros deserve it.



I will be very surprised if ASoIaF is a story in which human heroes use their humanity to fight some evil otherworldly thing. It's just not that kind of story. The people in ASoIaF aren't heroes that band together for common cause, they are like us, like modern humans, full of greed and self interest - they don't band together for common causes anymore. Which is a big part of the point of the story.


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Except that R'hllor represents fire and there is nothing remotely fiery about a character known as Coldhands. I would argue that his mannerisms and intellect are his own and that he actually retains much more of himself than The Lady does. Granted he was probably backfire-wighted very close to death, whereas Lady S was dead for days first. I don't think mannerisms and personality depend on what form of wighting one undergoes (though the regular ice wights don't seem to have much of either).

Coldhands died "long ago." Sorry my friend, but there is no way he's a member of the BWB, which was only formed after Ned sent Beric and company after Gregor Clegane. This fella's been dead a loooooong time and the R'hllor-based resurrections have never worked before for Thoros (and more than likely other red priests before him). So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Coldhands was not fire-wighted.

yeah, the long dead excerpt would definitely put him out of the time loop with the brotherhood, you are correct

hmm.. you make an interesting point though, that The Lady was in fact dead for days first, came back, yet still maintained, a somewhat intelligible mind and manner. Granted youre correct, she isnt who she was, then again we really dont know what she became (mentally) after robb was killed in front of her, this could very well be what she became mentally.

the point is, she was dead, came back, yet still she's not dumb-wighted. shes coherant. as is Coldhands. i would kindly disregard rh'llorian based magic to bring coldhands back no problem, i just wonder the logistics of them both being dead, and returned, lacking Other/Wight characteristics and maintaining their coherence.

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Craster Inbreeding = First Men Blood


Targaryen inbreeding = valyrian Blood



Both did it for the same purpose, to increase the potency of the primary ingredients in the blood, that could essentially grant them power.



The secret is in the blood, it always was.



Danaerys goes on about the blood of old valyria, in her early chapters, much like ned did with first men. The demonstration of northern craster inbreeding to increase first men potency, and valyrian/andal blood demonstrated by the targaryens



It's the secret to Ice & Fire, First Men Blood, and valyrianl blood. Furthermore, if Andal blood is fire-based, like FM is ice-based, perhaps it's valyrianl blood, that powers Rh'llorian magic, not kingsblood. Melisandre's magic sometimes works, sometimes it doesn't. She bases this on having blood sacrifice, with kingsblood as the ingredient. Perhaps they fail, because valyrian blood, is the primary ingredient for her blood magic.



Danaerys' dragons are hatched, when the blood sacrifice is made with her baby, Rhaego. If Targaryens have Andal blood, her baby would have it as well. Mirri Mazz Duur would harness the power of valyrian blood, not Targaryen blood, to allow all this to happen.



The Great Other/Others/Ice = First Men Blood


Rh'llor/Dragons/Fire = valyrian Blood


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Also, in support of this theory, just gonna put this here:



"It was all a lie," he said bitterly, remembering the crow from his dreams. "I can't fly, I can't even run."


"Crows are all liars," Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework.




Later on:



Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. (Doesnt sound like confirmation to me, in fact, it sounds awfully doubtful)


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Also, in support of this theory, just gonna put this here:

"It was all a lie," he said bitterly, remembering the crow from his dreams. "I can't fly, I can't even run."

"Crows are all liars," Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework.

Later on:

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. (Doesnt sound like confirmation to me, in fact, it sounds awfully doubtful)

You're adding emphasis that isn't there. I think the point is that they absolutely know he built Winterfell, and it's been said he built the Wall too. In other places it's said he helped the Storm King finally get Storm's End right. Brandon Stark: Magical Architect. Could be he did the designing, but the actual building was left to others (no, not THOSE others).

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yeah, the long dead excerpt would definitely put him out of the time loop with the brotherhood, you are correct

hmm.. you make an interesting point though, that The Lady was in fact dead for days first, came back, yet still maintained, a somewhat intelligible mind and manner. Granted youre correct, she isnt who she was, then again we really dont know what she became (mentally) after robb was killed in front of her, this could very well be what she became mentally.

the point is, she was dead, came back, yet still she's not dumb-wighted. shes coherant. as is Coldhands. i would kindly disregard rh'llorian based magic to bring coldhands back no problem, i just wonder the logistics of them both being dead, and returned, lacking Other/Wight characteristics and maintaining their coherence.

Again that could be an issue of religion protecting her somehow. Maybe those wighted North of the Wall can only be protected from thralldom by vows said in front of a Heart Tree/keeping the Old Gods, and those wighted south of the Wall are protected by the Seven.

Hellman's is Best Foods on the other side of the Mississippi River. Same stuff, different brand name. That could be exactly what we're dealing with here. Branded religion. The Many-Faced God, hard at work on the best marketing for each demographic?

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I wonder why these type of theory's bother you so much Jon Ahai?

The Nights Watch is the shield that guards the realms of men, from an area where a wall was built, after the Nights Watch formed, to separate the realms of men from the Other side. Surely everyone can agree on this?

What isn't clear is what they are guarding against, or even if they are meant to be guarding the other side from the realms of men. It is entirely possible that their original purpose was to guard the realms of men from entering the far north. The Wall could have been like a fence around a wildlife reserve and the Nights Watch the security guards that are meant to keep the reserve safe from the folly of men.

Sam gets to open one of the Wall's magical gates by speaking old words, after he has vowed himself to the old gods, to take Bran through on invitation. Sam is very much acting like a security guard, or warden, taking Bran as an honoured guest, or new addition for the wildlife reserve, at this point.

The legendary past is very fuzzy - deliberately written so, to obscure the truth until the books conclusion, no doubt.

The first man made a pack with the Children of the Forrest, that basically amounted to protecting the natural world. Symbols of this natural world that had to be protected were Godswoods - the trees with faces.

Then there was a time of heroes in which was a long night and everything is a bit obscure. But the history that was passed down is from the human perspective, not the perspective of the Other side of the wall.

There is a reasonable probability that the Long Night had something to do with the pact being broken, or the magical and natural world mistreated by the humans. And that the heroes did not fight to win but rather brokered a new pact, which included making a big ass wall that made it very clear which place humans are supposed to leave the fuck alone.

Tyrion pisses off it, FFS - the little Imp shows deep disrespect for the Other side by seeing as something he can piss on - it is very clear in the books and the show the humans no longer give a toss about the old ways, respecting nature, magic and all of that. It's very clear that the Nights Watch is a shadow of what it once was and that it has forgotten its original purpose. Winter has to come, because the people of Westeros deserve it.

I will be very surprised if ASoIaF is a story in which human heroes use their humanity to fight some evil otherworldly thing. It's just not that kind of story. The people in ASoIaF aren't heroes that band together for common cause, they are like us, like modern humans, full of greed and self interest - they don't band together for common causes anymore. Which is a big part of the point of the story.

the reason why i have problem with this theory is that its 99% filled with fantasy rather than facts and evidence given are not interprated correctly.Agree with it is disagreeing all that ive read.i mean the WW defenders of men?

i see no difference btwn urs and that claiming Mance is Rhaegar or the one claiming Ned wasnt the one executed.they are all trying to twist the story by providinh evidence not in the books or twisting some events to look like evidence.

Give me a shread of proof from the books even the novellas or the wiki hinting that the NK is good or the WW are the good guys or existance of another wall then ill be a follower.

me on the other hand can list over 100 reasons why your theory is absolutely absurd.

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the reason why i have problem with this theory is that its 99% filled with fantasy rather than facts and evidence given are not interprated correctly.Agree with it is disagreeing all that ive read.i mean the WW defenders of men?

i see no difference btwn urs and that claiming Mance is Rhaegar or the one claiming Ned wasnt the one executed.they are all trying to twist the story by providinh evidence not in the books or twisting some events to look like evidence.

Give me a shread of proof from the books even the novellas or the wiki hinting that the NK is good or the WW are the good guys or existance of another wall then ill be a follower.

me on the other hand can list over 100 reasons why your theory is absolutely absurd.

When you read book 1, saw season 1 - did you think Jamie could be sympathetic and almost a good guy? Or The Hound? When you first met Arya, did you really think she was going to end up becoming as cold as she has? When Robb first went to war, did you think things would turn out for him like they did? About the only character that is still inline with my initial expectation is Jon and possibly Dany - but even Dany isn't panning out quite how I expected.

Now, let's work this the other way - what did you think was happening with Craster's babies before you saw it?

I bet many were thinking, seriously, is the show really going to go there? Are they going to slaughter/sacrifice an infant to some demonic being on screen? Are they going to feed a living infant to the undead? Most horror stories don't go that far and I have watched and read a lot of those. But the show was willing to show Robb's child being killed in utero, along with his bride. They let us see some of Robert's younger bastards get the knife or be drowned. They let us know that Joffrey enjoys making whores torture themselves and that his mother can't help loving him. I mean, if these are the things the people do to each other and the monsters/Others are worse than the people, then perhaps a scene from A Serbian Film may have made these monsters seem monstrous in comparison, perhaps...

I propose something different - you give me hard evidence that the Others have been as callous or cruel as some of the humans in the story. You give me proof that the Others in the books have killed a single human that hasn't done something that could be taken as disrespectful to, or interfering with the natural world beyond the wall.

If there was hard evidence of what I am suggesting, then, with all the theory scanning fans are doing, this would have been found - and much of the meaning that I believe will be at the end of the story would become too clear.

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Re this thread, check this link out:



http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html



There are definite patterns here with things we have been discussing over the last few days re The Wall and blood lines.



In a nutshell - TLDR the link - Winter is Ragnarok, First men are (mostly) the giants that wage war on gods and men (Targs and Andals) to start the world anew. Be warned the link could contain very character specific spoilers, including which Lannisters are actually Targs :D


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1. the reason why i have problem with this theory is that its 99% filled with fantasy rather than facts and evidence given are not interprated correctly.Agree with it is disagreeing all that ive read.i mean the WW defenders of men?

2. i see no difference btwn urs and that claiming Mance is Rhaegar or the one claiming Ned wasnt the one executed.they are all trying to twist the story by providinh evidence not in the books or twisting some events to look like evidence.

3. Give me a shread of proof from the books even the novellas or the wiki hinting that the NK is good or the WW are the good guys or existance of another wall then ill be a follower.

4. me on the other hand can list over 100 reasons why your theory is absolutely absurd.

1. Jon Ahai, the reason this theory lacks evidence is because THE AUTHOR HAS DELIBERATELY NOT GIVEN US MUCH ON THIS. IT'S THE BIGGEST MYSTERY IN THE WHOLE SERIES FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. No theory on any of this will be mostly evidence-based. If you don't like theories that lack evidence, maybe you should avoid reading theories on topics for which the author gives little information. It would save you some frustration.

Also, it cannot be stated that someone's interpretation on a given matter is "incorrect" just because it is different from your own interpretation. Nor can one interpretation be said to be "incorrect" until the author AND ONLY THE AUTHOR settles the matter by releasing source material proving that said interpretation was wrong.

I agree that this one is a big change from what we've been told in the novels, but essentially so is Jon being Rhaegar's son. The novels tell us he is Ned's. If GRRM can pull one such switch, what makes you think he won't pull a second?

2. There is a very big difference between this theory and Mance is Rhaegar and Ned is Alive. For one thing we have actual information FROM THE AUTHOR that disproves those. For another, the lack of evidence regarding anything to do with the Others leaves a lot of room for possibilities. Your not seeing the possibilities does not mean they don't exist. The author himself has stated that the Others/White Walkers are misunderstood. Translation: contrary to what the characters think, the Others are not evil incarnate. If they are not evil, then they could be good. See? Room for possibilities.

3. The books don't even offer "proof" that NK or the WW are bad. All we've got are stories that have been passed down through oral tradition for so long that it's impossible to tell which parts are true and which are exaggerations. You don't have to be a follower of this theory. It is not anyone's job to convince you. But you could be more respectful of the time, effort, and creativity that went into it.

4. Go for it. Number them please. Given the lack of info we have on the subject I doubt you'll get to 50.

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Also, it cannot be stated that someone's interpretation on a given matter is "incorrect" just because it is different from your own interpretation. Nor can one interpretation be said to be "incorrect" until the author AND ONLY THE AUTHOR settles the matter by releasing source material proving that said interpretation was wrong.

I wish more people understood this when discussing art and literature.

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My beliefs thus far still stand, now more than ever. Especially with all the blood homework ive been doing. I did however discover reasoning and sure fact for finally putting Varys=Marwyn to bed though.


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Just thought of something re this thread.



What if the Last Hero became the Nights King after he was slain?



And, of course, Coldhands is the Nights King - for, they killed him long ago.


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Slowly, according to the recent GRRM Q&A, all my blood theories are coming to pass.. Furthermore, an excerpt from The World Of Ice & Fire regarding Others:




Archmaester Foma's Lies Of The Ancients--though little regarded these days for it's erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria & certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands--does speculate that the Others of legends were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the Wildlings, that had established itself in the Far North. Because of the Long Night, these early Wildlings were pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Foma, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch & the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion.




Now, while that doesn't confirm everything, or anything, if Foma is accurate, not only is the blood-secret First Men blood (which was just a theory by me to begin with), it would lead the way to why Wildlings make sacrifices, dont name their children for three years, the reasoning for Craster's incest to keep the potency of First Men blood as pure as possible.



I called it, it's First Men blood. If Foma IS accurate, then the northern houses, the Starks, they all have the blood that can turn them Other. This passage also hints that Others wouldnt necessarily be the end-all evil everything proclaims them to be. It also puts into question the intentions of the Night's Watch.



Check the timestamps of this thread, they're before the release of TWOIAF and future novels. :)



I'll gracefully back down if im wrong, but TWOIAF did nothing to undermine anything, if anything that passage alone supports a lot of my propaganda. BUY INTO IT


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P.S. - It's also stated about Others, that it is rumoured that they CAN fashion materials out of ice. TO what extent, is unknown.



....I know. :)


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This is a much better "heresy" thread than the actual heresy threads :cheers:

thank you kindly. i need more of that, because it feels as if im working truly alone here lol :P

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You're not alone Blazfemur - herecy, or trying to unread the plot to work out what it means, is a valid concept.



I'm fully on board with the Stark/First Men/Winter/Cold blood being of historical importance that will play a big role in the end game.



The issue I have with Valyrian blood being fire blood is that it is relatively new (only half as old as the cold blood) and entirely dependant on the dragons. Yes, dragons are magical and bonding with them made Valyrian blood magical - but it couldn't have started there.



We need to know the origin of the dragons. Where did they come from originally? How did they end up in that mountain where the Valyrians found them?



As it stands the Andal blood is equally as old and strong as Valyrian blood, just not associated with dragons.


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I still disagree that humans can be turned into Others, but I'm funny that way. :D



I have to say it's weird to suggest that creatures who look entirely different from, and who the author says are not, humans are just a different tribe of First Men. Whatever Archmaester Foma was on, I hope he shared.


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